I found something upsetting

M.N Thorne · Jan 28, 2015

I would like to add my two cents on this matter when it comes to hair. A lot of Black americans were outrage by her hairstyle because they felt she was mocking their culture. Even if the 12 year old did not mean to offend anyone with her hairstyle. Many people believe she was mocking Black American culture due to how the more dominant society viewed our hair.However, Black Americans are not the only ones to be outraged by braids. For example, tons of white Americans in Fresno, California had rudely commented one of many hairstyles featuring blue braids featuring seashells. They would role their eyes and tell me that was an "punk look".

However, I took the style from a book about mermaids called "Mermaids and their kin". One of the page featured a painting of the mermaid goddess from Angola, Kianda, with blue braids and seashells. When I told them this hairstyle came from Ancient Africa, then they shut up. However, no one would have worn such an hairstyle but an goddess

My point is that many people feel uncomfortable when people wanted to dress in more"tribal" ways. If this pre-teen girl would have argue that she is wearing braids like her European ancestors did, people would have still torn her apart because most humans demand complete cultural assimilation out of everyone. This girl was attacked because she wanted to be different and people felt she wanted to mock their culture.

M.N Thorne · Jan 28, 2015

I would like to respond to you "Latinas wearing braids" comment. Maybe people did not give them hell because braiding hairstyles were worn in MesoAmerica thousands years before Europeans came. For example, I knew plenty of Mestizas would wore their hair in the same way their Native ancestors did before meeting their European ancestors. It is just a way of showing their love for their MesoAmerican blood. In fact, I knew tons of mestizos and pure Native American people would get the same body art as their MesoAmerican ancestors as well.

Brutal Mustang said:
Putputt, it's not as simple as 'us versus them, and them'.

The one thing Kuwi, Lillith, and I do agree on, is that we are mixed. Though, someone would probably look at us and see a Native American man, a black woman, and a white woman. The vast majority of Americans are mixed like we are. And genes, they are a funny thing. I knew a blond girl whose biological dad was black, and I don't mean pale black. I've also known black people who were mostly white in their ancestry. So you can't tell by just looking at a person where they're from.

This girl, she could very well have black in her ancestry. If so, she's not allowed to wear braids because she's not black enough? Where is the line drawn?

This is what really bothers me about this whole thing. America is by and large a melting pot. Racial and cultural lines are blurring with each generation. We are all becoming one. So many Americans have a slice of America as a whole in their ancestry, regardless of what race they actually pass for. Why is a shit storm happening over box braids, which has roots in various ancient cultures? Heck, I've seen non-black Latinas wear box braids from time to time. More so when I lived down in Central America. I don't see anyone giving the Latinas hell for it.

I get respect for culture. But in this instance, the line is so blurred. What worries me, is that the only message this is sending to young people is, "Nope, you're not that similar to one another. Be conscious of it, kids!"

Roxxsmom · Jan 29, 2015

Seems like getting mad about this kind of hairstyle being cultural appropriation is a bit like closing the barn door more than 30 years after the horses escaped, since the movie "10" made this hairdo quite popular with blond, white gals back in 1979 and up through the early 80s (I don't remember anyone complaining that it was cultural appropriation back then, but maybe I was just too young and stupid to be paying attention, since I was a kid).

I'm not telling anyone how they should feel here, and I know cultural appropriation is something that different people will have different takes on.

But it was my understanding that cultural appropriation is usually said to be an issue when symbols and traditions that have deep cultural or religious significance to a marginalized group of people are borrowed or used by members of the dominant cultural group in a way that shows no respect or understanding of their meaning, like say, Hopi Kachina figures being used as toys, or Dreamcatchers being hung from rear view mirrors, or traditional or ceremonial costumes being turned into trite and mocking Halloween get ups, or someone writing a novel set in India and presenting the religious beliefs or cultures of the people who live there in a trite or stereotyped way.

So I guess my question is, am I wrong in my definition, or does this hairstyle have a historical or religious significance that most white kids are unaware of?

Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm just trying to understand.

Lillith1991 said:
Massive deal really when you've been told all your life that the hair which grows out of your head is ugly. I love my fro, even though care can be pretty involved since my hair is waist length but shrinks to my arm pits.

And this does explain why some people are sensitive about it. It's not any of my business, but I've been alive long enough to remember how (back in the 70s) there was a move towards more natural black hairstyles, but by the late 1990s, it seems like most of the African American girls in my classes were straightening their hair, and most of the African American guys I knew were shaving their heads. I know there are tons of reasons for this besides hating one's own natural hair, so I'm not going to judge, but we still live in a world where black women in the US military are told that hairstyles that work best for their natural hair are not "regulation," even if they're neat and under control, and black kids are sometimes singled out at school for their hair styles.

I'm glad to see that more of the black students on the campus where I teach are wearing styles that are natural for their hair again. Actually, I'm glad to see white kids wearing a greater diversity of hair lengths and styles again too. Long, straight, and with no bangs looks great on some women, but not on everyone, and it's sad when someone has to choose between a style that works for their hair and face and being "in fashion."

Still, given that this is the situation, is there a way for a white girl or woman to wear these braids, or a similar style, without attracting ire? Is there a line that can be drawn that will make most people happy?

Neegh · Jan 29, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
Seems like getting mad about this kind of hairstyle being cultural appropriation is a bit like closing the barn door more than 30 years after the horses escaped, since the movie "10" made this hairdo quite popular with blond, white gals back in 1979 and up through the early 80s (I don't remember anyone complaining that it was cultural appropriation back then, but maybe I was just too young and stupid to be paying attention, since I was a kid).

That's what I said on page 1

Neegh said:
Anyone remember the movie 10 ... Bo Derec runing all over the beach in the very same braids...?

By the way, every black woman I asked about this, over the last two days, thinks the whole situation has been blow out of proportion.

aruna · Jan 29, 2015

Storm in a teacup.

Roxxsmom · Jan 29, 2015

Neegh said:
By the way, every black woman I asked about this, over the last two days, thinks the whole situation has been blow out of proportion.

Be careful with this kind of argument, though, because it sounds a bit like the old standby, "My black (or Jewish, or female, or gay, or Native American or whatever) friend doesn't care about [insert x] so you shouldn't either."

No one is a hive mind on these matters. And of course, groups of friends tend to consist of people who have a similar perspective to us on some things, plus there's confirmation bias. We tend to remember or notice attitudes that reinforce or reflect our existing ones.

Having said this, I'm pretty sure I've seen other white women with this hairdo over the years, in everyday life and in the media, where no one seems to have minded. It seems strange that the incident that boiled over involves a 12 year old kid. But it's possible that earlier controversies either slipped under my radar, or else there was some difference of circumstance with this girl's case that I fail to grasp.

Neegh · Jan 29, 2015

aruna said:
Storm in a teacup.

Hey! I take offince to that!

:tongue

Lillith1991 · Jan 29, 2015

Neegh said:
That's what I said on page 1

By the way, every black woman I asked about this, over the last two days, thinks the whole situation has been blow out of proportion.

Including this one. But just because it was blown out of proportion re: people thinking it's Ok to cuss out another person's child. That does not however mean it isn't an issue at all for in the eyes of the Black population here. It is.

Neegh · Jan 29, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
Be careful with this kind of argument, though, because it sounds a bit like the old standby, "My black (or Jewish, or female, or gay, or Native American or whatever) friend doesn't care about [insert x] so you shouldn't either."

.

I actually did ask people about this (white, black, Asian, and Native American). Now I have gone as far as I am gong to go here: be cause to go further means that have divulge more info about myself than I believe smart at this point.

Later.

kuwisdelu · Jan 29, 2015

Neegh said:
By the way, every black woman I asked about this, over the last two days, thinks the whole situation has been blow out of proportion.

Lillith1991 said:
Including this one. But just because it was blown out of proportion re: people thinking it's Ok to cuss out another person's child. That does not however mean it isn't an issue at all for in the eyes of the Black population here. It is.

Yes.

There is a huge difference between "it's okay to cuss out a 12-year-old and call her racist for something she probably had no idea about" and "cultural appropriation is no big deal."

I don't personally know anyone who supports the former. Unfortunately, I've interacted with far too many people who support the latter.

Everyone I know who has taken offense at this issue have been far more offended by all of the people "defending" her who argue cultural appropriation is no big deal.

Them's fightin' words.

An innocent 12-year-old? Not so much.

Channy · Jan 29, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
Having said this, I'm pretty sure I've seen other white women with this hairdo over the years, in everyday life and in the media, where no one seems to have minded. It seems strange that the incident that boiled over involves a 12 year old kid. But it's possible that earlier controversies either slipped under my radar, or else there was some difference of circumstance with this girl's case that I fail to grasp.

Christina Aguilera went through a phase with the box braids. But I didn't say anything earlier because I wasn't sure how relevant it would be, picking one person out of a handful of white women who have had them. (Although to be fair, she's mixed I think?)

http://cdn.hiphopwired.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/1260900832_christina_2.jpg

Lillith1991 · Jan 29, 2015

Channy said:
Christina Aguilera went through a phase with the box braids. But I didn't say anything earlier because I wasn't sure how relevant it would be, picking one person out of a handful of white women who have had them. (Although to be fair, she's mixed I think?)

http://cdn.hiphopwired.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/1260900832_christina_2.jpg

She's latina, though she also happens to be mixed.

M.N Thorne · Jan 30, 2015

Roxxsmom,

Frankly, that is quite a difficult question but I do not believe in cultural appropriation overall. It often fuels a dangerous mix of exoticism and fetishism amongst people. Even if that person mean no harm, tons of people will bashed them anyways. Plus, Bo Derek only wore her hair like that for a movie not in real life. Her character wore that type of hairstyle in "10" in order to be daring.She went down to Watts and got a South Central hairdresser to do it. She did not wear such a hairstyle in real life for good reason. The same thing goes with white rapper Brooke Candy wearing pink and blue box braids. She is an artist and people allow her to get away with more. However, many black people are outraged when they see "their" hairstyles, culture, music, and art used as some sort of fetish. Yet if they wear box braids then they are ghetto and low-class. Often, I wonder what school does she go to? For example, if that girl would have worn those braids during my junior high school days....the minority/ white girls would have broke her nose in the bathroom. They would have yelled that she was trying to be black and jumped on her. Now,people just bully on social media

Roxxsmom said:
Seems like getting mad about this kind of hairstyle being cultural appropriation is a bit like closing the barn door more than 30 years after the horses escaped, since the movie "10" made this hairdo quite popular with blond, white gals back in 1979 and up through the early 80s (I don't remember anyone complaining that it was cultural appropriation back then, but maybe I was just too young and stupid to be paying attention, since I was a kid).

I'm not telling anyone how they should feel here, and I know cultural appropriation is something that different people will have different takes on.

But it was my understanding that cultural appropriation is usually said to be an issue when symbols and traditions that have deep cultural or religious significance to a marginalized group of people are borrowed or used by members of the dominant cultural group in a way that shows no respect or understanding of their meaning, like say, Hopi Kachina figures being used as toys, or Dreamcatchers being hung from rear view mirrors, or traditional or ceremonial costumes being turned into trite and mocking Halloween get ups, or someone writing a novel set in India and presenting the religious beliefs or cultures of the people who live there in a trite or stereotyped way.

So I guess my question is, am I wrong in my definition, or does this hairstyle have a historical or religious significance that most white kids are unaware of?

Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm just trying to understand.

And this does explain why some people are sensitive about it. It's not any of my business, but I've been alive long enough to remember how (back in the 70s) there was a move towards more natural black hairstyles, but by the late 1990s, it seems like most of the African American girls in my classes were straightening their hair, and most of the African American guys I knew were shaving their heads. I know there are tons of reasons for this besides hating one's own natural hair, so I'm not going to judge, but we still live in a world where black women in the US military are told that hairstyles that work best for their natural hair are not "regulation," even if they're neat and under control, and black kids are sometimes singled out at school for their hair styles.

I'm glad to see that more of the black students on the campus where I teach are wearing styles that are natural for their hair again. Actually, I'm glad to see white kids wearing a greater diversity of hair lengths and styles again too. Long, straight, and with no bangs looks great on some women, but not on everyone, and it's sad when someone has to choose between a style that works for their hair and face and being "in fashion."

Still, given that this is the situation, is there a way for a white girl or woman to wear these braids, or a similar style, without attracting ire? Is there a line that can be drawn that will make most people happy?

M.N Thorne · Jan 30, 2015

Christina Aguilera is a very light-skinned latina famous singer. People really let her get a pass because she was an singer. However, I am glad that you brought this subject up. Back in high school, there was my very light-skinned, green-eyed, and very blond Mexican-American classmate and her Native American boyfriend was jumped by teenage Neo-nazis because had those box braids like Christina Aguilera. They said " They wanted to teach a wigger to have white pride." They pulled all her braids out. A week later, she went on television to say that both her parents were "Puro Mexicano" and then she found our school first Anti-racism club. After that, she worn nothing but Jalisco dress to school So I did not mean to threadjack but it was just something on my mind after reading your post.

Channy said:
Christina Aguilera went through a phase with the box braids. But I didn't say anything earlier because I wasn't sure how relevant it would be, picking one person out of a handful of white women who have had them. (Although to be fair, she's mixed I think?)

http://cdn.hiphopwired.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/1260900832_christina_2.jpg

Roxxsmom · Jan 30, 2015

Neegh said:
I actually did ask people about this (white, black, Asian, and Native American). Now I have gone as far as I am gong to go here: be cause to go further means that have divulge more info about myself than I believe smart at this point.

Later.

My point is that people from any demographic aren't all necessarily going to feel the same way about this. None of us has the ability to poll everyone of every background and culture about their feelings on these matters.

My own feeling is that some people took it way too far, and that it's never appropriate to lash out at kids. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have conversations about cultural appropriation and what it means in different contexts.

Usher · Jan 30, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
My point is that people from any demographic aren't all necessarily going to feel the same way about this. None of us has the ability to poll everyone of every background and culture about their feelings on these matters.

My own feeling is that some people took it way too far, and that it's never appropriate to lash out at kids. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have conversations about cultural appropriation and what it means in different contexts.

Including whether or not it is right or appropriate in the first place. Or whether or not the idea of cultural appropriation is actually racism and segregation by another name and dressed up to be something more noble. Kind of like calling murder an "honour" killing or abuse "bullying"

M.N Thorne · Jan 30, 2015

Roxxsmom,
I am going to have to disagree with your statements about cultural appropriation. Frankly, cultural appropriation often leads to problems like that little girl had. In addition, I feel that often cultural appropriation is mainly one-sided when it comes to minorities and whites. If a minority openly practices European cultural appropriation they are accused of being whitewashed or losing their roots. Black women are often victims of this type abuse. Many times, minorities must conform to social standards even when it comes to hair. Thus, many minorities feel like straighten their hair, bleaching their skin, and talking different will get them accept.However, many people openly celebrate when whites use "cultural appropriation" because it shows them being "open-minded" and "liberal". I feel that many people only show support to this girl because they felt she was being unique and liberal. Meanwhile, no one is talking to girl on why minorities feel this way. At least, her school, family, and friends are supportive.

Roxxsmom said:
My point is that people from any demographic aren't all necessarily going to feel the same way about this. None of us has the ability to poll everyone of every background and culture about their feelings on these matters.

My own feeling is that some people took it way too far, and that it's never appropriate to lash out at kids. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have conversations about cultural appropriation and what it means in different contexts.

M.N Thorne · Jan 30, 2015

Actually, cultural appropriation means something different to everyone.Tons of people like that idea but I never did. I believe that cultural appropriation often leads along the lines of "going native" to feel unique and exotic. A way of exoticized one's self in order to feel like less racist than one actually is. Just like all of those Suburban white teenagers listening to rap music but thinking that all blacks are savages. Just like tons of preppy minority/jewish women on tumblr engaging in raceplay/Nazi fetish with White Christian men because they wanted to live out their "Aryan God/Nazi Superman" fantasy. Many times, these women culturally appropriated themselves into preppydom yet they will never be WASPs.Often, these women sexualized their resentment and rage towards the idea male beauty. The idea male beauty often times is the white Christian man.

Usher said:
Including whether or not it is right or appropriate in the first place. Or whether or not the idea of cultural appropriation is actually racism and segregation by another name and dressed up to be something more noble. Kind of like calling murder an "honour" killing or abuse "bullying"

Usher · Jan 30, 2015

M.N Thorne said:
Actually, cultural appropriation means something different to everyone.Tons of people like that idea but I never did. I believe that cultural appropriation often leads along the lines of "going native" to feel unique and exotic. .

Of course "going native" or listening to world music is exotic. Anything that is not your own culture is "exotic".

I love Afrika Bambaataa because it creates exotic and exiting images in my mind. Wil-i-am is on my freebie five not because he's black but because he's kind of cute and he's stark raving bonkers - his music well leaves something to be desired but maybe I'm the wrong era. It's the same reason I studied archaeology -- the Picts are exotic, unique and interesting. And when I dip into other cultures I will never get it quite right. I had a friend with a Burkha so one day I borrowed one and went out with her - for me it was a blast there were issues but to quote from one of my favourite songs:

"Common People" by Pulp
"But still you'll never get it right
'cos when you're laid in bed at night watching roaches climb the wall
If you call your Dad he could stop it all."

Ultimately it isn't my culture but the best way to learn is to try it out -- it will never be quite right but it's closer to an understanding. To stop people trying out stops the best way of understanding. As an archaeologist in order to understand the past we'd try it out as close as we could.

People who are racist will be racist whether or not they appropriate. They don't care. People who are not racist are not racist whether or not they appropriate they just think "That's niice" (in the style of Agnes Brown to appropriate a bit of Irish culture)

kuwisdelu · Jan 30, 2015

Culture is intellectual property.

It is communally owned by the people of that culture.

Culture appropriation is theft of intellectual property.

Just as Fair Use exists in IP law, I think it's certainly possible to draw inspiration from another culture, or even use aspects of that culture directly, without appropriating. I usually call this "respectful use".

Likewise, if someone from another culture shares part of their culture with you, that is now appropriation. However, if you use it in a way that is disrespectful or they did not intend, then that is appropriation.

Why is it not appropriation to copy Western, Euro-American, or "white" culture? Because it was forced upon us. It was not simply shared, but we were told "this is the way you have to be." As the saying goes, "Kill the Indian, save the [white] man." Kind of became public domain after that...

Cultural IP doesn't have to be religious. And the fact that a significant number of people from a culture are hurt and insulted when other people steal something of theirs kind of implies it has "deep cultural significance."

Yes, some of us feel strongly about hair.

Hair is significant in many cultures. And when a huge part of the imperial colonization of your people involved shaming you for your native hair style and forcing you to adopt their own hair style, hair can be a huge way of reclaiming your cultural identity. And the majority culture turning around and stealing the very thing they once stole from you all over again? However innocent the intention, that's rubbing salt in open wounds.

I bear no ill will toward this girl, nor do I blame her. She has my sympathy for the out-of-line and over-the-top reactions she received.

None of that means cultural appropriation is okay. I wish her the best.

Thank you.

Fruitbat · Jan 30, 2015

You can copy anything you want but many people from that traditionally oppressed culture won't like it.

People from the mainstream culture arguing that people from the oppressed culture actually should like it, that it has been copied before, that other unrelated cultures throughout time and space also had the copied thing, that oppressed cultures have also taken on things from the culture that oppressed them, that you know someone from that culture who doesn't care, etcetera, don't change that at all.

Neither does this specific incident or the ignorant comments some anonymous people made to the young girl involved, in the online news comments sections.

Learning that something offends and why is reason enough that I, personally, won't do it. But I don't guess I don't understand what there is to debate...

You can copy anything you want but many people from that traditionally oppressed culture won't like it. That's it. Right?

Or are people arguing that it's not offensive, although those from that culture have said it is and explained why?

kuwisdelu · Jan 30, 2015

Fruitbat said:
You can copy anything you want but many people from that traditionally oppressed culture won't like it. That's it. Right?

It's not simply that people from that culture won't like it.

It's that it's wrong. It is theft of intellectual property.

No less than uploading and file sharing a fellow writer's novel without their permission.

Fruitbat · Jan 30, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
It's not simply that people from that culture won't like it.

It's that it's wrong. It is theft of intellectual property.

No less than uploading and file sharing a fellow writer's novel without their permission.

I understand what you're saying and as I said in my post (sorry I edit so much, it's a bad habit), I wouldn't do it, for that reason. However, unlike the novel example you posted, it's not illegal. So if people are going to say, "I heard what people from that culture said but I'm going to do it anyway," then I guess they can, whatever we think of it. I'm trying to clarify if that is what they're actually saying or if I'm missing something...

kuwisdelu · Jan 30, 2015

Fruitbat said:
However, unlike the novel example you posted, it's not illegal.

Sometimes it is. For example, it is illegal to sell "Native American jewelry" if it actually isn't.

So if people are going to say, "I heard what people from that culture said but I'm going to do it anyway," then I guess they can, whatever we think of it.

Well, sure. People can do lots of things and get away with it. Legal or not. Doesn't make it right.

M.N Thorne · Jan 30, 2015

Usher,
I believe you must be of oppressed culture to understand what I was trying to tell you. I do not think that you understand what I am saying. That is okay

Usher said:
Of course "going native" or listening to world music is exotic. Anything that is not your own culture is "exotic".

I love Afrika Bambaataa because it creates exotic and exiting images in my mind. Wil-i-am is on my freebie five not because he's black but because he's kind of cute and he's stark raving bonkers - his music well leaves something to be desired but maybe I'm the wrong era. It's the same reason I studied archaeology -- the Picts are exotic, unique and interesting. And when I dip into other cultures I will never get it quite right. I had a friend with a Burkha so one day I borrowed one and went out with her - for me it was a blast there were issues but to quote from one of my favourite songs:

"Common People" by Pulp
"But still you'll never get it right
'cos when you're laid in bed at night watching roaches climb the wall
If you call your Dad he could stop it all."

Ultimately it isn't my culture but the best way to learn is to try it out -- it will never be quite right but it's closer to an understanding. To stop people trying out stops the best way of understanding. As an archaeologist in order to understand the past we'd try it out as close as we could.

People who are racist will be racist whether or not they appropriate. They don't care. People who are not racist are not racist whether or not they appropriate they just think "That's niice" (in the style of Agnes Brown to appropriate a bit of Irish culture)

I found something upsetting

M.N Thorne

M.N Thorne

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Neegh

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Neegh

Lillith1991

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

Neegh

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

Channy

Me Gusta

Lillith1991

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

M.N Thorne

M.N Thorne

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Usher

M.N Thorne

M.N Thorne

Usher

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

Fruitbat

.

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

Fruitbat

.

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

M.N Thorne