Will Self: "I Don't Write For Readers"

blacbird said:

i agree (gasp) with McPeaches, more or less. But I don't think Self expressed himself very clearly. To me, there's a big difference between "writing for readers" and "writing for a market". I write for imaginary readers who I fantasize will like the same kind of writing I like. I do the craft stuff necessary to make the prose readable and clear. That's "writing for readers". I pay utterly no attention to "the market", largely because I can't even come close to comprehending it, let alone anticipating "the next big thing", and going after it.

That approach, of course, has been an unmitigated failure, but it's the best I can do.

caw

Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^
Need I say more?

I started writing seriously because I couldn't find the books I wanted to read. So I tried writing them myself.
I have the sincere hope that there are enough readers out there who might just enjoy them; that there's an editor out there who can connect us.

I have never ever tried to write for the market, and never will.

Hamilton said:

Maybe I just don't get it. The idea of laboring over a story for ages, and not caring at all if anyone reads it blows my mind. Sharing it with others is the whole point for me.

Click to expand...

Who said anything about not caring if anyone reads it? I would love someone to read -- and love -- my stuff.

James D. Macdonald said:

Do not confuse "writing for readers" (which is what we do) with "writing for the market" (sparkly vampires are hot -- I'll write sparkly vampires!).

The first is what keeps our writing from being just mental masturbation. The second is a dead end.

Click to expand...

This.

I've always thought of the masturbation metaphor, too. I've read, now and again, such self-indulgent "look at me, I am such a language talent!" empty pages, that I felt as if I were sitting in a public park and someone had come up and flashed me and started to rub his willy. Which is all well and good for him, but then don't ask me to agree afterwards that it was good sex for me, too. Don't ask me to pay for the performance.

Tell me a story. Put your willy away, and tell me a story.

I love writing. I find the publishing part of it fun, too - but in a different sort of way. More cryptic-crosswordy than music, say - but fun in its own way.

Tell me a story. Put your willy away, and tell me a story

Click to expand...

Can't I keep it out AND tell you the story?

lorna_w said:

This.

I've always thought of the masturbation metaphor, too. I've read, now and again, such self-indulgent "look at me, I am such a language talent!" empty pages, that I felt as if I were sitting in a public park and someone had come up and flashed me and started to rub his willy. Which is all well and good for him, but then don't ask me to agree afterwards that it was good sex for me, too. Don't ask me to pay for the performance.

Tell me a story. Put your willy away, and tell me a story.

Click to expand...

I don't understand this. I love a good story too - but there are as many different ways of being a writer as there are ways of being a reader. I don't see a reason to diss one in favour of the other. If it's been published, it's a fair sign that somebody thought enough people would like it to bank on making sales.

hrrmph!


ETA: Cross-posted with Crunchy who said it so much better.

I don't really enjpy the process of writing. I enjoy the process of making up stories, creating characters, seeing where they go and how they interact with each other, and what happens in the end -- to have a finished, polished, perfectly formed finished product.

I wish there was a way to transform the stories I have inside me, which are basically wordless, into words others can read, without having to actually sit down and write! Since there isn't, well, I write.

I consider that process all part of writing a story and I enjoy all aspects of it I love coming up with words to describe things and thinking about the language I will use. I get a thrill out of sitting down with a pen in hand getting ready to write scenes long hand because I just can't process the scenes in the same way if I type them first on the computer. So I do everything long hand I enjoy buying new notebooks with pretty designs to begin writing longhand and thinking 'how should i write this?'.

Idk I just love all aspects of it I get so much enjoyment from it all and immersing myself in the story as if I am watching a movie or actually part of their world.

I wish I had this much love and excitement for other things lol.

I think that writers that I've enjoyed a lot are the ones that experiment and "mentally masturbate". Ray Bradbury, Ursula K. Leguin are just two that I come to think of at this moment because I've got them right next to me. If I could be a tenth of those two, I'd be happy.

mccardey said:

I don't see a reason to diss one in favour of the other. If it's been published, it's a fair sign that somebody thought enough people would like it to bank on making sales.

Click to expand...

I was thinking more of the years of teaching creative writing at uni and going through an MFA program, unpublished ms. that were very jerkoffy.

I write because I love writing. I love to write.

I want to publish because I want to share what I loved writing.

Frankly, to me that means while I'm not writing for the market ('I write because I love writing'), I am at least considering the readers who will be picking this bad boy up when it's done ('I want to share what I loved writing').

In order for it to be shareable, it has to be readable. To be readable, I have to at least consider the reader. Otherwise, it might as well just sit on my harddrive. (violating the share part of why I do this)

I write for the reader in the way I speak for the listener. It's a form of communication and therefore I am trying to convey something, but I am not necessarily saying what I think the listener wants to hear. I am also not speaking in order to just make people listen to my voice, but because I have thoughts I'm trying to put into words. In the same way I don't really write for the reader either.

I definitely get what he's saying and respect it. He couldn't go all out like he does if he had another attitude and that would make the world miss out on some brilliant books.

Hamilton said:

This is how I see it:

If an author is only writing for themselves, why are they even publishing this stuff?

Click to expand...

It's a living.

Torgo said:

It's a living.

Click to expand...

And I don't know who wouldn't want to earn a living off what they love

scarletpeaches said:

You can write for yourself and still want to publish. You write that which entertains you, and you throw it out there with the thought, "If other people like it, great; I've made a connection."

On the other hand, writing for the market alone...well I've seen some shitstorm novels come into existence that way.

Like gothicangel, I kind of agree with him.

Writing for oneself and writing something other people want to read is not mutually exclusive. Just look at Self's career to see that.

Click to expand...

blacbird said:

i agree (gasp) with McPeaches, more or less. But I don't think Self expressed himself very clearly. To me, there's a big difference between "writing for readers" and "writing for a market". I write for imaginary readers who I fantasize will like the same kind of writing I like. I do the craft stuff necessary to make the prose readable and clear. That's "writing for readers". I pay utterly no attention to "the market", largely because I can't even come close to comprehending it, let alone anticipating "the next big thing", and going after it.

That approach, of course, has been an unmitigated failure, but it's the best I can do.

caw

Click to expand...

These. Writing for the reader and writing for the market are different things in my eyes. The market is fickle, but your readers can be extremely loyal. I also think Self should have been able to explain it better.

Hamilton said:

Maybe I just don't get it. The idea of laboring over a story for ages, and not caring at all if anyone reads it blows my mind. Sharing it with others is the whole point for me.

Click to expand...

That's not what Self said.

I think he spoke adequately; I mean, plenty of people understood what he said. He's not one of your 'spoonfeed the reader'-type writers anyway, and thank God for that.

I don't think one should write for the market, because it changes seemingly willy-nilly. But I do think if a writer is not considering the audience, the readers, then they might just as well post it on their blog rather than go through any other kind of publishing, because - JMHO - it is just like posting any other kind of blog thing. It's what you want to write, take it or leave it. But if you want to get it published, and you're not just wanting to say "Oh I got published!", then you also want people to read, enjoy, understand, and hopefully think about what you've written - and you can't do that without writing "to" them at least to some degree. So yes, I have to agree about the masturbation thing. It's about communicating, and that means knowing your audience.

aruna said:

I don't really enjpy the process of writing. I enjoy the process of making up stories, creating characters, seeing where they go and how they interact with each other, and what happens in the end -- to have a finished, polished, perfectly formed finished product.

I wish there was a way to transform the stories I have inside me, which are basically wordless, into words others can read, without having to actually sit down and write! Since there isn't, well, I write.

Click to expand...

Really? Don't get me wrong, I love my stories, but I love the craft of writing too. Maybe moreso when I'm writing short stories because then there's the challenge of, "How do I tell this story in under 2,000 words to someone who doesn't know my world and has no reason to care about my character?" I love the challenge of creating something like that from scratch. Am I weird?

Novels, obviously, the plot is more complicated. But I do get excited about the craft itself -- the fact that I made up a series of events that flow logically from one to another, that reach a satisfying climax. When I see that work correctly, that makes me just as excited as creating a new character or a new world.

Now, for the part of writing and editing in which I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall and the magic's just not happening... I don't like that from any angle.

And I have no clue if this means I write for myself or for readers. Readers are very much in my mind when I write -- if a character is coming off as a jerk to everyone who reads and I didn't mean for them to be a jerk, I care about that and I'll edit the book because of that.

But I'm not going to pick up and write in a genre I can't stand just because it's hot either.

Why is writing for the market and writing for the reader being conflated as the same thing? I think writing for the market is pretty self-explanatory and no one disputes that trying to chase trends is an exercise in futility.

But writing for the reader? It appears that it means different things to different people and is bouncing all over the spectrum.

gothicangel said:

Erotica for Orcs?

Click to expand...

However, if I were going to chase a trend, this would be it.

shadowwalker said:

So yes, I have to agree about the masturbation thing. It's about communicating, and that means knowing your audience.

Click to expand...

Gosh, I find this so rude dismissive! Am I misreading, or something? Three posts now have said if you don't write for the reader, you're turning out crap - as though there's only one possible way to approach the job. I can't imagine the uproar if I took the opposite argument to a similar conclusion. I think it's perfectly possible to write for yourself and still have it be something other people can read and enjoy. And I'm not talking about blogposts - I'm talking about readable, thought-provoking or thoroughly engaging books. And I give daily thanks for their writers and publishers.

Is this thread about mental masturbation or Self abuse?

scarletpeaches said:

Is this thread about mental masturbation or Self abuse?

Click to expand...

The former, I hope.

scarletpeaches said:

Is this thread about mental masturbation or Self abuse?

Click to expand...

I want to talk about Orc erotica.