How harsh do you prefer your beta readers to be?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Anninyn

Stealing your twiglets.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
2,236
Reaction score
374
Location
Rain-swept dystopia.
Website
www.fivesquids.co.uk
Be honest, but be polite about it.

By which I mean no "This is crap" more "This doesn't work because".

Also, I have a fragile ego that needs careful handling, so tell me what works as well, please.
 

MoLoLu

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
540
Reaction score
47
I don't mind how it's given so long as the person betaing me understands I'll fight back against harsh, unexplained criticizm I don't agree with. I'd even wager I've an incredibly fragile ego when it comes to that but I prefer to have it broken down to the last brick than not touched at all. I get the feeling people aren't honest when I don't let them say whatever they want - good or bad. And, if it is bad and I haven't noticed, I damn well want to know so I can stick my head in a toilet and flush - not that I've ever done that.
 

aikigypsy

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
274
Reaction score
11
Location
In the Woods
I don't want a harsh critique, I want a useful critique, one which will point out specific problems that I can fix. Vague comments, whether positive or negative, don't do much for me.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
13,245
I don't use beta readers any more; I wonder if I ever should have. I can't believe I'm going to say this but I kind of agree with JAR on this, and wouldn't be surprised if he appeared in the thread later.

When I had betas, I would ask for brutal critiques but usually only got back "This is great!" Either I'm the second coming of Kazuo Ishiguro, or they were too scared to point out blips in the manuscript. Whichever option it was, the books were all still published more or less as I chose to write them, so I wonder if beta readers were needed at all. The stories felt 'right' to me, and sold, so... :Shrug:

I've given crits to people who asked for honesty, and some have gone seven shades of apeshit afterwards. Yes, I have a reputation for being ballsy, but these crits were honest, and I gave reasons for my opinions. It seems a lot of people ask for 'brutal' when they actually want 'ego wankery'.

So I don't crit any more, except for special favours for friends.

The best crit for me, these days, is whether or not a book sells.
 

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
9,493
Reaction score
4,283
Location
Coastal North Carolina
Just pointing out that not every scientist or person in a white coat is a man.
Temporary derail to try to bust a stereotype...

...and not all scientists wear lab coats, carry clipboards, wear glasses, and score a nine or above on a 1-to-10 Nerd Scale

UNLESS you want your scientist to conform to the television commercial view of a scientist.

And they all do not have affairs with their students (a literary situation almost universal when a university professor is included in a cast of characters)--it's the single-best way to get immediately fired, tenured or not.

End of derail...
 

shadowwalker

empty-nester!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
5,601
Reaction score
598
Location
SE Minnesota
I agree with those who want a professional style beta. I don't want someone who thinks I should be grateful when they tell me my work is "a piece of crap"; I also don't want cheerleaders who can't see the plot hole destroying the whole thing. I want an objective crit that explains/illustrates where they see a problem so I can address it. Leave the egos and the pom-poms at home.
 

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 17, 2012
Messages
3,539
Reaction score
429
Location
Floral City, FL
Some people just don't respond well to criticism and take it as a personal attack on their writing capabilities.
Yep. And I'm the wrong person to critique their work. I got chastised for a harsh critique on a critique site a while back and it was removed by the moderator. I read the published critiques that were all glowing and simply stopped going to the site.

That's not the kind of review that helps anyone and it's a waste of my time to give it. I'm brutally honest and I like to be treated likewise.

Jeff
 

Namatu

Lost in mental space.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
4,489
Reaction score
967
Location
Someplace else.
I'm with NeuroFizz on this: harsh, mean, and cruel aren't characterizations of a good crit, in my opinion. Honest and constructive are. There's a time for snarking and making jokes in a critique, and there's a time to be serious and constructive. If you're expressing that the hero is TSTL, snark probably isn't appropriate. You should explain why you think so, where the hero' characterization started to go off the rails for you. The author can evaluate for herself then, based on your opinion. Maybe the author will find that crit harsh. Maybe she'll even think it's mean and cruel. You can't control how people interpret criticism, but you can control how you offer it.

I'm sure my crits haven't always been received well, and some of them have been quite clear at identifying faults, big and small. Maybe some would call that "brutal," but I'm not doing any favors as a beta if I don't tell you what I see as room for improvement. That doesn't mean you have to listen to me. ;) I also presume anyone asking for my feedback is aware of what they're asking for, but maybe I need to clarify that in the future.
 

bearilou

DenturePunk writer
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
6,004
Reaction score
1,233
Location
yawping barbarically over the roofs of the world
I prefer honest. I prefer it being given in the spirit of helping. I prefer the words harsh, brutal, rude or snarky be left at home. And there's a reason. Words have meaning.

Those words have negative connotations and meaning to me and will put me in a very unreliable mindset. The beta may very well think or believe they are being harsh, brutal, rude or snarky and that's them. To me, as long as it sticks to the text and I can gain something useful out of what they have to say, we're golden.

But don't stomp around with their thumbs in their lapels crowing about how they are a harsh, brutal, rude or snarky beta as a damn badge of honor because I won't want to work with them. It starts to smack of ego on the part of the beta and just like we, as authors, are told that our ego has no place in the beta process, neither does the beta's.

If they tell me they're honest and I'm already rushing out to buy their favorite chocolates or brand of tea/coffee/drinks and brightly colored pens to help me polish up my prose.
 

tko

just thanks fore everything
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
2,724
Reaction score
626
Location
Los Angeles
Website
500px.com
the issue I see

Well, here's the problem. It's OK to be completely honest. Actually, that's the only way to be. But you have to balance criticism with praise. Not just to make the person feel good. But because if you don't tell them what they're doing right, what they're strengths are, how can they grow? Honest criticism AND praise seems to be what works best.

Of course it shouldn't be empty praise for the sake of feel good. But praise can be constructive, and you can learn from it.

Sometimes we don't know what we are doing right, just like we don't know what we are doing wrong . . .
 

tko

just thanks fore everything
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
2,724
Reaction score
626
Location
Los Angeles
Website
500px.com
funny

I find it incredibly difficult to find a good beta reader in my style. Not that I wouldn't love to.

Beta #1. Wow, this is the best thing I've read in 6 months. Good job.

Me. Uh, thanks

Beta #2. How dare you bore me to death? Everyone was just talking. I couldn't read past chapter 4. What a waste of my time.

Me. Uh, thanks
 

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
4,288
Reaction score
561
Location
Pennsylvania
Whichever option it was, the books were all still published more or less as I chose to write them, so I wonder if beta readers were needed at all. The stories felt 'right' to me, and sold, so... :Shrug:
I wonder whether betas really help as much as people claim too. At the very least, having more than a couple of beta-readers can easily turn into a "trying to please everyone and in the process losing what made the book worthwhile" situation.

I'm going to forgo critique other than proof-reading by a friend and query letter critique on my current primary WIP. Having the first two books I queried beta-read didn't help them sell, so maybe I'm better off trying it entirely on my own.
 

firedrake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
9,251
Reaction score
7,297
I want honesty. It's up to me if I take it as harsh or brutal or whatever you want to call it. However it comes, I want it to be honest. After all, I'm working to improve my work and that's not going to happen unless a reader is honest and tells me where I've screwed up.

This.
It's all about the honesty. A bit of bluntness isn't going to cross my eyes. After all, if your book gets out into the cold, cruel world, there are readers and reviewers who aren't going to give a monkey's chuff about your feelings. Publishing isn't a place for sensitive souls.
 

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
9,493
Reaction score
4,283
Location
Coastal North Carolina
I wonder whether betas really help as much as people claim too. At the very least, having more than a couple of beta-readers can easily turn into a "trying to please everyone and in the process losing what made the book worthwhile" situation.

I'm going to forgo critique other than proof-reading by a friend and query letter critique on my current primary WIP. Having the first two books I queried beta-read didn't help them sell, so maybe I'm better off trying it entirely on my own.
This depends on where each writer is in the process of learning the craft. Those on the newbie end should get as much feedback as they can handle since this is the best way to learn--from constructive crits of their own work. An experienced writer can get along just fine without betas.

Personally, I love beta feedback. It's not a "try to please everyone" situation since all comments and suggestions are filtered through my "what's best for my story" detector. It turns out that most of the comments are useful, though. A good example...if a comment suggests that the beta reader just didn't catch on to what I was saying, I don't take that as the beta missing the point as much as I take it as an indication that I didn't make the point properly in the first place. Looking at it that way always ends up strengthening that part of the story.
 

ishtar'sgate

living in the past
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
3,801
Reaction score
459
Location
Canada
Website
www.linneaheinrichs.com
I don't mind tough critiques (reviewers can be brutal) but I don't use betas. Most people, including myself, aren't really qualified to give advice on an entire manuscript. I have my own preferences and my own failings and I don't want to risk messing around with someone else's voice or style or unique story. I have a reader who checks out my manuscript for clarity, flow and readability and that's about it. The rest is addressed by an editor.
 

shadowwalker

empty-nester!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
5,601
Reaction score
598
Location
SE Minnesota
The usefulness of a beta (or betas) depends entirely on the author doing their homework. I have two betas whose crits I trust implicitly. I don't always change things based on what they say, but I know they're not ego-tripping or just being nice. I also knew them through a critique group before we became mutual betas, and I knew they were good. It doesn't really matter what their experience is either. A good beta is a good reader, first and foremost. A non-writer can tell you as much about your story as a writer can; they may not focus on the same things, but their comments can be just as invaluable.

My main need for betas is to see the things that I've missed because I know my story. I can think something is clear as a bell because I know what I wanted it to say - a beta will tell me if it actually says that. A fresh set of eyes is a godsend when you've been "living" your story.
 

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
4,288
Reaction score
561
Location
Pennsylvania
A fresh set of eyes is a godsend when you've been "living" your story.
This is a good point. I do still have one reader who would tell me if she didn't understand what was happening in the story. She's just extremely not-picky, and so isn't going to give much feedback on anything beyond grammar and confusion.

Of course, if someone as forgiving as her actually says something doesn't work, then I know it doesn't work on any level whatsoever. Maybe that's the best kind of beta for someone who's more experienced.

ETA: I'm sort of at a point where I feel like I should be worthy of at least a few personalized rejections or R&Rs from agents, which are the one kind of critique everyone should take seriously. I got personalized rejections last time, and, while the beta critiques were all over the place, the agent comments were dead-on in describing the problems in that MS.
 

Deleted member 42

Just sticking my nose in to observer that for me it's not about being harsh.

It's about being honest and kind.

Say true things as specifically and kindly as you can. But be specific, and be honest.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
13,245
This.
It's all about the honesty. A bit of bluntness isn't going to cross my eyes. After all, if your book gets out into the cold, cruel world, there are readers and reviewers who aren't going to give a monkey's chuff about your feelings. Publishing isn't a place for sensitive souls.
Hello you, with your sexy cover art avatar. :D
This depends on where each writer is in the process of learning the craft. Those on the newbie end should get as much feedback as they can handle since this is the best way to learn--from constructive crits of their own work. An experienced writer can get along just fine without betas.
I reckon this is the case. I got my 'newbie feedback' in the form of rejections. Dicking around in different genres. And finally realising the early books I subbed should have been burned at the stake before submission. :D
 

Pinguicha

Has the cutest cat in the world!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
187
Reaction score
12
Location
Lisbon
Website
pinguicha.wordpress.com
I got my 'newbie feedback' in the form of rejections. Dicking around in different genres. And finally realising the early books I subbed should have been burned at the stake before submission. :D

I totally think this is what's happening to me xD Except I only get form rejections (and some are semi-form, where they just add that my book's marketing would be difficult) and those don't help much. Maybe once I get other books published, I'll also want to burn my current ones at the stake!
 

Hamilton

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 10, 2012
Messages
243
Reaction score
45
Location
NJ
I would want honesty. Harshness? No. Being a beta isn't a licence to be rude.
 

Pinguicha

Has the cutest cat in the world!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
187
Reaction score
12
Location
Lisbon
Website
pinguicha.wordpress.com
I would want honesty. Harshness? No. Being a beta isn't a licence to be rude.

Maybe it's my English failing me (it's rare, but it does happen sometimes), but I don't think harshness necessarily implies rudeness. You can be harsh and polite at the same time. For instance, to me a harsh crit will say "Cut these thousands of words. I think they're useless". It's not rude, but it is sort of harsh.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
13,245
Different people have different opinions of what 'rude' is. I had someone go thermo-nuclear at me for saying "You haven't given the reader a reason to care about your character on page one." Was I rude, or was she just a speshul snowflake?

There will always be people who get pissy and cry rudeness when the person giving the critique was just being honest.

As firedrake has said, once your book's out there, it'll be torn to shreds anyway, and if you (general you, not you you) can't take a pre-publication crit, you're in for a bumpy ride.

At least with beta reads you can clarify stuff and try to explain yourself. Once you're published, the review nazis will tear you a new one if you dare to try to defend yourself.
 

shadowwalker

empty-nester!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
5,601
Reaction score
598
Location
SE Minnesota
Once the book is published, I don't care what the reviewers say. They're not saying it for me anyway. Betas, on the other hand, are supposedly there to help make the story better before it gets sent out into the cold cruel world. Being rude is not being helpful.

For the record, I don't consider "You haven't given the reader a reason to care about your character on page one." rude or harsh. Just a statement. On the other hand, "Cut these thousands of words. I think they're useless" is rude in my eyes. Why? Because they're a command and an ironically useless comment - why does the beta think they're useless? Does the beta have any suggestions to improve them?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.