So how do you judge whether story events are worth including or not anyway?

scribbledoutname · Aug 8, 2012

I have a big problem, and I'm going to use Harry Potter to illustrate it (I don't have a Harry Potter obsession, okay! It's just the only story where other people actually seem to know what I'm talking about when I bring it up xD).

Alright.

Every story has a main issue, which I guess is the central problem. Conflict? Central conflict. Let's go with that xD It's the story's 'spine', I guess, and there are subplots weaving into and out of it. I try to stick as close to this as possible when I'm writing, but I tend to have good ideas for scenes that start way before this particular conflict begins, or stray away while the story's moving (or maybe stretch out other, plot-necessary scenes).

So here's where Harry Potter comes in. A lot of the story could be cut. If we say that Hagrid's arrival is the inciting incident -- because this is what changes Harry's life and sets the story on its way -- you could also say that this is where the story really begins.

"Oh, but you need to show Harry's life before this happens so we can really sympathise with him." That's still doable.

Let's say we keep the "prologue" of a first chapter. The chapter after could start in the sea-hut, with Harry remembering the mysterious letters that filled up the Dursleys' house and how they're like all of the other weird things that have happened (which totally weren't his fault) but more important, and then when you start to feel sorry for him Hagrid could burst through the door and tell him the truth. That would save maybe twenty pages, and there's enough time to show how crappy Harry's life is and how he's treated, and how it's a sucky birthday. You don't need much to paint the picture.

Likewise, a lot of the trip to Diagon Alley could be cut, all that shopping that was unecessarily dramatized, and the gap between the inciting incident and the introduction of the central conflict could be cut down. Yes, the conflict's coming is hinted at, but it isn't really clear what the problem is at that point and there is very little genuine tension or conflict (most of it is just "interesting stuff").

This is why I'm not sure what to do. The really efficient, industry-oriented, writerly part of my brain tries to keep things as tight as possible, but the reader side of my brain believes that "stories" are big and nebulous and there is far more room for dramatizing things that don't really need to be dramatized and "interesting stuff, because it's interesting to you and your readers" than most advice suggests.

So am I right or am I crazy?

xC0000005 · Aug 8, 2012

Here's the rule I use (and somedays detest, when it makes me cut a scene I enjoy): Every scene I include is essential to advancing the plot, the character, or both. Every sentence is essential to the scene.

No matter how fun the wordplay, no matter how clever the joke, all bow before that rule, with one minor exception:

I planned a "series" arc, and in service of it, I have three scenes which do not directly, tangibly related to the main conflict or sub plots. Some people would say to cut those. Those are probably smart people. Some people would also say not to write sequels without selling the first, which is also probably smart. Scenes that are integral to your character and your plot, leave those alone. Be merciless with the others.

BTW, I keep the deleted scenes in a separate file. Never truly gone.

sprogspasser · Aug 8, 2012

I think you're right. Reading a story is relaxation and enjoyment. If I was revising for an exam I'd want the material to be tight and efficient. Not so for a story. Lots of room as you say, but the material of the story should be interesting and well written.

MoLoLu · Aug 8, 2012

Your question is a valid one. I'll hope to cross your two examples with my current WIP because it's the example which is closest in my mind (and I'm not certain I could find another book which is commonly known).

My WIP takes place primarily in dubai. But I start somewhere else and include events before moving on to the UAE so I can set up a bit of 'how we got there' and not get going with 'wtf, what is this all about and who are these people'. This mirrors the use of the 'hagrid prologue' in harry potter, it gives context and sets up a situation which explains how later events came about (HP could have started w. the first day in school but the prologue makes the story far more understandable)

The trip to diagon alley again adds context. It allows the reader to become part of a world he or she isn't familliar with. It allows us to understand parts of the world which are essential later (that the magic community exists beyodn hogwarts, for example). This could be compared to the WIP I mentioned earlier, where the flight to and arrival at Dubai fills two or three scenes which aren't needed but add background information to set up the conflict to come. Mostly, it hits at why, in my WIPs context, Dubai isn't the thriving metropole it is today (which might otherwise jar people when they realize the story takes place in a ghost-city just like people would be mildly confused if they only knew about Hogwarts but not that magic existed beyond the walls too).

I'd say it's personal judgement and the sense of what's needed. How much do you need to make sense of events? How much adds to the story? No one can tell you. And it isn't always about what makes a good story. You also have to imagine an unknowing reader and sort of guess at what they'll want to know (i.e. what would otherwise lack in their mental image of your world). Then you give them everything they need to know to follow your story from A to Z. Everything else can be cut - but forgetting about the reader often leads to too much being cut and the story feeling confused.

sprogspasser · Aug 8, 2012

Here's the rule I use (and somedays detest, when it makes me cut a scene I enjoy)...

It seems to me that the rules/guidelines writers have been ingesting and enshrining have been defined and are being enforced (albeit subtly) by editors. I'm talking about professional editors.

An invisible war is going on similar to the one that was fought by the bankers/stock markets to end up controlling the economy. How and when did the bankers and stock market end up controlling so much? No one really knows because no one was paying attention to their corner. Wake up writers! We've already reached the stage where we ourselves are perperuating their rules.

ccarver30 · Aug 8, 2012

xC0000005 said:
Here's the rule I use (and somedays detest, when it makes me cut a scene I enjoy): Every scene I include is essential to advancing the plot, the character, or both. Every sentence is essential to the scene.

I think that this often gets left behind. People worry about advancing the plot so much that this is on the backburner. Thanks for the reminder. I am struggling a little bit with this right now- asking myself, "Is this boring?"

Persei · Aug 8, 2012

Very good advice, really. My writing tends to be very fast paced, but when I finish first drafts, usually I have to go back and add more scenes to character development essential to the plot.

Character development is important, too. Gotta keep it in mind.

aibrean · Aug 8, 2012

If you happen to lose 4,000 words during a faulty save and during the re-write it doesn't go back in, it's not worth including. Yes, from personal experience on Monday. I was quite distraught, but the MC ended up being less annoying and more relatable. I also added more dimension so the feelings the MC had actually made sense. You don't just stick them in a box and hope the reader figures out what the box is for.

Sometimes it's good to take a step back and fully process what you've written/are going to write.

Little Anonymous Me · Aug 8, 2012

In your example, the parts that could have been cut in HP added to world-building. Without which, the readers would not have had as well-rounded an image as we did. Books can't be all action! action! action! because the reader would never get a chance to breathe and feel immersed in the world and characters you have created. It's a style choice, of course, but it's one I prefer.

Buffysquirrel · Aug 8, 2012

Yes, a lot of what happens in Diagon Alley could be cut in strict plot terms, but then the central, important point--the visit to the bank to retrieve the maguffin--would stand out with big shiny sparkles and a sparkly arrow reading Note This, It Will Be Important Later. Most of the story there I think is doing two things: showing the world of magic as being similar to yet different from the world of the Muggles, ie a world in parallel, and misdirecting the reader. Of course, the film completely failed to achieve this and put so much emphasis on the bank visit that it was obvious to a mole rat it was Extremely Important. But then the film was made for people who'd already read the book, so, la.

It has however been a long time since I read it (or saw the film), so I'm going on the basis only of what I recall.

You might find it interesting and/or useful to go through the scenes you consider redundant, and make a note of what arises that is used or referred to later in the book (or even the series, if you've read that far), and what isn't. Do you see Rowling making subtle contrasts between the Muggle world and the world of magic? Do you see her foreshadowing important plot points like the owls and Harry's ability to speak snake? Perhaps you're assuming scenes are redundant when it's simply that their relevance hasn't yet become apparent.

Not that I'm setting Rowling up as the perfect writer who never put in anything that could have been left out, mind. But if, instead of thinking, "oh, this isn't needed", you started thinking, "why did Rowling think this was needed?", you might start to be in a better position to assess what your own story does or doesn't need.

Namatu · Aug 8, 2012

xC0000005 said:
Here's the rule I use (and somedays detest, when it makes me cut a scene I enjoy): Every scene I include is essential to advancing the plot, the character, or both. Every sentence is essential to the scene.

This. I have a file with some very entertaining dialogue and scenes cut because they really had no purpose. Entertaining, yes. Something I needed to know as the writer? Oftentimes. Relevant to the story for the reader? No.

As writers, we're constructing and populating whole worlds, but that doesn't mean you have to show everything. Use what's needed to set the scene, establish atmosphere, flesh out characters. When I'm polishing a WIP, I take a pass through the manuscript specifically to look at whether each scene is advancing the plot, and within that scene, how much of it is advancing the plot. Sometimes you might run into one or two nuggets of necessary info in a 1500-word scene. Is that whole scene necessary then or can you work the small bits of Need to Know in elsewhere? Doing so can create a tighter, better flowing story.

Determining exactly what's necessary from what's not isn't always something that can be done during the writing process. Consider, as well, that sometimes there may be scenes the writer needs to know and have written, but the reader doesn't need to have read.

Torgo · Aug 8, 2012

The question of what to include and what to leave out encompasses the whole art of storytelling. Good general 'rules' are available here, from Mark Twain: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3172/3172-h/3172-h.htm

sciencewarrior · Aug 8, 2012

In defense of the Dursleys' chapter, it isn't only to show Harry's life. It also does a good job at showing what kind of boy he is.

I do think that every scene, every sentence has to carry its weight. If anything, I tend to be too concise, try to move too fast to the "good stuff". But I recognize you don't have to start with a bang. Conflict, yes, but not a magical conflagration.

vrabinec · Aug 8, 2012

It's a fine line. Include too many "interesting little nothings" and the reader will get impatient, and may start thinking that those outweigh the plot pertinent passages. Include too few, and the story feels shallow. I start out with too many, and cut everything that doesn't give me the same warm and fuzzy during edits. I just typed "The End" on my WIP last night. I think it's somewhere around 150K words right now. It's pretty well edited, so everything in there is plot relevant or adds character or world building. But I know I'll get the thing down to 120K, because that's where I want to get, and I'll just go through a process of elimination. Just think of yourself as the judge at your own little American Idol, and the sentences are competing for your vote to stay in the book.

blacbird · Aug 8, 2012

Some stories are more episodic than others. Some genres tend to be more episodic than others. Some writers write in a more episodic manner than others. Stories may be tightly linear (think noir detective fiction, for example) or have many branches (think sprawling family sagas, like A Suitable Boy).

The trick is to make any episode engaging to the reader, and not a total disconnect from the story. Digression isn't always a bad thing; distraction usually is.

caw

Jamesaritchie · Aug 8, 2012

I don't even think about it. If I writ a scene, an event, it belongs. Every story is tell is a chain, and either a link belongs, in which case it must be there automatically or the previous scene wouldn't make sense, and I have to write it. If I don't have to write an event for the story to make sense, I don't write it.

Libbie · Aug 8, 2012

Here's a trick my first agent taught me. I've found it very handy.

First, write the whole story. Include whatever you want to include.

When you're done, write up a synopsis of the book. For the first draft of the synopsis, make it as long as you need it to be to sum up all the various scenes.

Now, you have to edit the synopsis down to 1 - 2 pages (the shorter the better. I try to limit it to 1500 words total.) You need to think very hard about what's the most essential stuff to keep in the synopsis, in order to convey the key points of the story.

Every scene that isn't mentioned, either directly or indirectly, in the final 1- to 2-page synopsis gets cut from the book.

Viola. I've cut as many as 30,000 words of extraneous subplot from single novels using this trick.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 8, 2012

Here's another test:

If you had to retype the entire manuscript, what parts wouldn't get transcribed?

jmare · Aug 8, 2012

I think sometimes writers get too focused on getting to the point and forget that novels have the luxury of taking little asides that may not directly relate to the larger story. That's not to say that you can add reams of filler, but a little fat on the story isn't necessarily a bad thing.

DanielaTorre · Aug 8, 2012

Little Anonymous Me said:
In your example, the parts that could have been cut in HP added to world-building. Without which, the readers would not have had as well-rounded an image as we did. Books can't be all action! action! action! because the reader would never get a chance to breathe and feel immersed in the world and characters you have created. It's a style choice, of course, but it's one I prefer.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Where scribbledoutname is seeing "events", it's actual world building. It's necessary in fantasy because there are rules to the fantastic. With HP we're seeing the character's reaction to the fantastic and how his crappy, mundane life was a complete contrast.

So perhaps picking HP was not the best example for you to use. LOL. Unless, of course, you're writing fantasy, then perhaps you should take another gander at what that genre consists of. :tongue

bearilou · Aug 9, 2012

Libbie said:
Here's a trick my first agent taught me. I've found it very handy.

First, write the whole story. Include whatever you want to include.

When you're done, write up a synopsis of the book. For the first draft of the synopsis, make it as long as you need it to be to sum up all the various scenes.

Now, you have to edit the synopsis down to 1 - 2 pages (the shorter the better. I try to limit it to 1500 words total.) You need to think very hard about what's the most essential stuff to keep in the synopsis, in order to convey the key points of the story.

Every scene that isn't mentioned, either directly or indirectly, in the final 1- to 2-page synopsis gets cut from the book.

Viola. I've cut as many as 30,000 words of extraneous subplot from single novels using this trick.

Tucking this away in my toolbox for use when I get there. Thanks!

ccarver30 · Aug 9, 2012

Libbie said:
Here's a trick my first agent taught me. I've found it very handy.

First, write the whole story. Include whatever you want to include.

When you're done, write up a synopsis of the book. For the first draft of the synopsis, make it as long as you need it to be to sum up all the various scenes.

Now, you have to edit the synopsis down to 1 - 2 pages (the shorter the better. I try to limit it to 1500 words total.) You need to think very hard about what's the most essential stuff to keep in the synopsis, in order to convey the key points of the story.

Every scene that isn't mentioned, either directly or indirectly, in the final 1- to 2-page synopsis gets cut from the book.

Viola. I've cut as many as 30,000 words of extraneous subplot from single novels using this trick.

This scares the hell out of me and seems very extreme. 30k cut?? I'm gonna go hide under the bed...

johnhallow · Aug 9, 2012

Libbie said:
Here's a trick my first agent taught me. I've found it very handy.

First, write the whole story. Include whatever you want to include.

When you're done, write up a synopsis of the book. For the first draft of the synopsis, make it as long as you need it to be to sum up all the various scenes.

Now, you have to edit the synopsis down to 1 - 2 pages (the shorter the better. I try to limit it to 1500 words total.) You need to think very hard about what's the most essential stuff to keep in the synopsis, in order to convey the key points of the story.

Every scene that isn't mentioned, either directly or indirectly, in the final 1- to 2-page synopsis gets cut from the book.

Viola. I've cut as many as 30,000 words of extraneous subplot from single novels using this trick.

I don't mean to be rude, but that seems a bit silly to me. I mean, I can understand it if you HAVE to lose a certain number of words to fit within a certain word count, but unless you can tell that your work is flabby then I don't see how lopping off chunks of story because they aren't crucial is beneficial.

I'm absolutely against this whole idea that a story should be "economic" or streamlined. People seem to be forgetting that readers read for an experience. This is what they are willing to shell out their hard-earned money for. Stories themselves are a derived demand for pleasure. If digressions and enjoyable-but-not-pivotal events add to this pleasure then they are worth keeping. If they take away from the experience by delaying or reducing enjoyment then they ought to be removed. This is something you can only judge by evaluating these parts one by one, and oftentimes the difference between the two is quite subtle.

Either way -- and this is to the OP -- cutting indiscriminately for the sake of keeping things short is, IMO, ridiculous. Keeping things as short as possible is not something writers should aspire to. Keeping things as clear and interesting to the target reader is, and this is really the way you should be approaching everything, especially cutting. People often seem to forget that the whole point of keeping things short is to avoid boring the reader with unwanted text. But if the text isn't unwanted, if the text is giving the reader what they wanted, then cutting is prioritizing succinctness over the whole point of your work.

As blacbird put it:

blacbird said:
Digression isn't always a bad thing; distraction usually is.

Brings to mind advice like "when you finish your story cut so-and-so percent"... advice that can stop stories from becoming all that they would otherwise have been, but advice that many writers follow religiously nonetheless.

kkbe · Aug 9, 2012

To cut or not to cut, that is the question.

What could Shakespeare have added in Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1? His mc's soliloquy is one of the most widely recognized, quoted, and celebrated pieces of writing in the history of writing, and yet, there's Hamlet blathering on and on. . .something about man's choice to live because he fears the alternative. . .

What could Shakespeare have cut from that scene? Surely, he could have trimmed that passage while keeping the gist intact. My point is, there are valid arguments for and against waxing on or hacking away. Both have their place. Neither is absolute.

Sometimes we have to trust our gut.

scribbledoutname · Aug 11, 2012

Got it

I'll keep everything to the point, but I will keep things if they stray a little but are enjoyable.

I was worried that simply wanting to keep something in there because it's part of what you wanted to tell might not be a good enough reason, but I see how it's good if it's interesting

Thanks guys, you rock!

So how do you judge whether story events are worth including or not anyway?

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