Introductions, how much is too much?

Skawt · Sep 10, 2014

Ok, so I'm writing an apocalyptic sci-fi. I've trying my absolute hardest to avoid laundry listing elements of my "world." I have to admit, laundry listing would make things so much easier. Doing that, I can jump right into the action.

That being said, I chose not to laundry list. I've edited and re-edited to ensure this isn't happening. I have to establish my duo-MC's environment, their relationships and interactions. This process is still incomplete, 4 chapters later. I feel as though its starting to be too much; however, at the same time, I feel the genre requires it.

The problem is: this is my first sci-fi. What I'm trying to do is sneak in tid-bits of the fact the story is about 50(ish) years in the future by including certain things like holo-projections. My MC even uses an 'ancient' rifle on his hunting trip, stating he thinks gunpowder is more satisfying than magnets. I have even included dialogue with a computer.

So my question is, generally, how much of an introduction do you feel you need to do? Would you rather know the characters your reading about beforehand, or get to know them as the plot unfolds? I would like to have the reader intimately know my characters so they can experience their growth as the plot unfolds. My WIP is on hold until I can figure this out

How much is too much?

quicklime · Sep 10, 2014

Skawt said:
Ok, so I'm writing an apocalyptic sci-fi. I've trying my absolute hardest to avoid laundry listing elements of my "world." I have to admit, laundry listing would make things so much easier. Doing that, I can jump right into the action. not easier on any reader.....and you can jump right in....go find the first book of Stephen King's Dark Tower series. It begins with a cowboy/knight following a wizard through the desert. No precursor chapter to say why, or explain devil-weed, or the land before them. it just starts, and what matters we learn along the way.

That being said, I chose not to laundry list. I've edited and re-edited to ensure this isn't happening. I have to establish my duo-MC's environment, their relationships and interactions. This process is still incomplete, 4 chapters later. I feel as though its starting to be too much; however, at the same time, I feel the genre requires it. either you aren't doing a good job of adding the details as you go, as King did, or you're having trouble trusting the reader with anything less than screaming at them....sometimes its just the latter, and a fear if everything isn't laid in stone, twice, the reader just won't get it.

The problem is: this is my first sci-fi. What I'm trying to do is sneak in tid-bits of the fact the story is about 50(ish) years in the future by including certain things like holo-projections. My MC even uses an 'ancient' rifle on his hunting trip, stating he thinks gunpowder is more satisfying than magnets. I have even included dialogue with a computer.

So my question is, generally, how much of an introduction do you feel you need to do? Would you rather know the characters your reading about beforehand, or get to know them as the plot unfolds? I would like to have the reader intimately know my characters so they can experience their growth as the plot unfolds. My WIP is on hold until I can figure this out again, i really don't think the one is in conflict with the other

How much is too much?

read some fantasy and sci fi. if you already are, read it much more closely.

You will see very few start with nothing going on, just so they can lay out the rules.

Wilde_at_heart · Sep 10, 2014

You might find critiquing in the SFF section on here helpful. Go to Writing Lab, password 'vista'. You may also post your own samples in the Hook me in 200 thread, but need 50 for anything larger. Though I'd recommend getting a solid feel for the place and reading through dozens of others' critiques first. I've found seeing enough work by others, and reading through the threads has helped my own writing, at least.

Osulagh · Sep 10, 2014

I'm unsure what you mean by introductions, Do you mean introducing the reader to something new or new way of thinking? Or an intro of the book where you explain things to the reader.

If you correctly show something to the reader and possibly provide some explanation for them to make sense of what you're showing them (like elementary school show and tell) they will understand it. There's no need to unload all the info about something to the reader when they first encounter it.

That said, do that as the story unfolds--same with the characters. Don't just start the book with a ton of character and world building without the plot along for the ride. Fill in the details and let the reader catch things as the story unfolds--they don't need to be lectured, and if they do IMO you're doing something wrong.

Skawt · Sep 10, 2014

quicklime said:
read some fantasy and sci fi. if you already are, read it much more closely.

You will see very few start with nothing going on, just so they can lay out the rules.

I appreciate your input. Dark Tower is a great example; I think the problem was I was writing in the style of another Stephen King novel: "The Stand." While Stephen King can pull that off in his setting, I don't think I can -at least in this WIP. I've been re-drafting the relationships of my characters and leaving some things out to be introduced later when it's relevant.

Osulagh said:
That said, do that as the story unfolds--same with the characters. Don't just start the book with a ton of character and world building without the plot along for the ride. Fill in the details and let the reader catch things as the story unfolds--they don't need to be lectured, and if they do IMO you're doing something wrong.

Excellent advice. Thank you.

Wilde_at_heart said:
You might find critiquing in the SFF section on here helpful. Go to Writing Lab, password 'vista'. You may also post your own samples in the Hook me in 200 thread, but need 50 for anything larger. Though I'd recommend getting a solid feel for the place and reading through dozens of others' critiques first. I've found seeing enough work by others, and reading through the threads has helped my own writing, at least.

Will do, Thanks.

quicklime · Sep 10, 2014

The stand began at the start of the plague; it never went back to explain who Flagg was, etc....so it arguably did much the same as TDT, albeit with considerably more bloat

SamCoulson · Sep 10, 2014

It's a difficult balance. But I don't think you should necessarily let it hang you up. When worldbuilding, I do it trough drafts. I write a few thousand words, then next time I sit down, I edit/re-write those words, then continue on. Rinse and repeat. All the time I try to focus on action rather than exposition. It gets difficult to strike the balance when you are in the process of worldbuilding--as you yourself are thinking things through as you write (and thus writing it). Don't get hung up on doing it perfectly as you are drafting it. Work it out through iterations.

Skawt · Sep 10, 2014

quicklime said:
The stand began at the start of the plague; it never went back to explain who Flagg was, etc....so it arguably did much the same as TDT, albeit with considerably more bloat

Hmm, I remember a ton of character development before things got rolling, especially with Fran Goldsmith. It was Probably one of the only times I ever had to to take a break from a book. Although your're right, Flagg was left out. I suppose I should mention I read that book sometime in my early teens; I'm probably remembering it incorrectly.

SamCoulson said:
It's a difficult balance. But I don't think you should necessarily let it hang you up. When worldbuilding, I do it trough drafts. I write a few thousand words, then next time I sit down, I edit/re-write those words, then continue on. Rinse and repeat. All the time I try to focus on action rather than exposition. It gets difficult to strike the balance when you are in the process of worldbuilding--as you yourself are thinking things through as you write (and thus writing it). Don't get hung up on doing it perfectly as you are drafting it. Work it out through iterations.

Good advice. world building and trusting the reader is challenge I didn't expect to be so consuming. Then again, I suppose it's my growing pain in the Sci-fi realm of things.

quicklime · Sep 10, 2014

ok, a few thoughts:

1. many people thought The Stand was way too damn fat, and King had a career by then, allowing him the luxury of excess......

2. Ignoring Point 1, one of King's traits is a lot of character development, yes. but what you asked about, at least as I read it, is something else entirely. You weren't asking us how much space you could devote to getting to know a character before "starting your story" so much as how much space you could use to world-build. Of the two, you have less space, imho, to world-build because there's no characters to identify with or care about then......

3. again, you always have the option of doing both (or all three perhaps now) at the same time--as a general rule you're probably better off at most times when your story is doing more than one single thing anyway.

Skawt · Sep 10, 2014

Do you think it would be enough to just add in one piece of technology the characters interact with to establish the setting? I think my bottom line issue is trusting the reader. I think what I'll end up doing is just get the darned thing written and ship it off to a few betas and collect feedback.

I apologize if i seem condescending or argumentative, I'm more or less "thinking out loud." I very much appreciate your input

Sonsofthepharaohs · Sep 10, 2014

Good world building, like good character development, never stops. It is not a step by step approach of 'establish setting - establish characters - use characters in setting,' but rather a continuous process throughout the whole novel. And that process is dependent on one thing: plot. Only show as much world building as your plot demands, and when it demands it.

Buffysquirrel · Sep 10, 2014

Having your characters interact with the tech is always good. I always prefer to be thrown into the world and left trying to find out what the heck is going on. See Count Zero, for example--Gibson never does explain what a slamhound is. Neuromancer is much more explainy and therefore less satisfactory, imo. (Yes, I did read them the 'wrong' way round)

Devil Ledbetter · Sep 10, 2014

Skawt said:
So my question is, generally, how much of an introduction do you feel you need to do? Would you rather know the characters your reading about beforehand, or get to know them as the plot unfolds?

To put it simply, I want to get to know them because the plot unfolds. Their reactions to the unfolding events should tell us everything we need to understand about them in the least tedious way possible.

Romangoblets · Sep 10, 2014

I don't think an introduction is necessary. Just show us what's happening from the start, inject some conflict/tension/action, and that should do it. You can spice it up with backstory later in the novel.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 10, 2014

Skawt said:
t the story is about 50(ish) years in the future by including certain things like holo-projections. My MC even uses an 'ancient' rifle on his hunting trip, stating he thinks gunpowder is more satisfying than magnets.

At 50(ish) years in the future, you're way, way out of bounds with this prediction. Not only will gunpowder rifles not be ancient, that's impossible in only fifty years, they'll still be the most common form of firearm.

I'm guessing you're pretty young, only because I remember an expression that went something like, "Only the very young think fifty years is a long time. Old people know it's the wink of an eye."

Skawt · Sep 10, 2014

Jamesaritchie said:
At 50(ish) years in the future, you're way, way out of bounds with this prediction. Not only will gunpowder rifles not be ancient, that's impossible in only fifty years, they'll still be the most common form of firearm.

I'm guessing you're pretty young, only because I remember an expression that went something like, "Only the very young think fifty years is a long time. Old people know it's the wink of an eye."

No, I'm not very young. Is 29 young? I don't know. I'm just pulling a number out of my arse to be honest. I know it's small. I don't explicitly state the date in the story - nor do I plan to. It's just kind of down the road. Nanotechnology is relatively common, in fact it's the whole story. It's as far in the future as the reader needs it to be - if that makes sense.

Thanks for bringing that up, absolutely valid point.

MakanJuu · Sep 11, 2014

I'm of the mind that listed explanations are ok on a small scale level, like one or two things in a row, but I've been trying to eliminate most exposition & anything but action & dialogue in any scene where I'm introducing a new POV & narrowing things down in the long run by attempting to allow things to be explained in the telling of the story as much as possible, if I can think of a way to do it & if the thing(s) doesn't/ don't seem like it really requires full on explanation right this second.

EDIT: I should probably also note that, where exposition is concerned, I'm also of the mind that general idea is better than instruction manual.

And, sorry for another addition, but more likely in 50 years everyday people would be using plastic print guns rather than mag lev/ rail weapons, if there was any change at all.

Skawt · Sep 11, 2014

MakanJuu said:
I'm of the mind that listed explanations are ok on a small scale level, like one or two things in a row, but I've been trying to eliminate most exposition & anything but action & dialogue in any scene where I'm introducing a new POV & narrowing things down in the long run by attempting to allow things to be explained in the telling of the story as much as possible, if I can think of a way to do it & if the thing(s) doesn't/ don't seem like it really requires full on explanation right this second.

EDIT: I should probably also note that, where exposition is concerned, I'm also of the mind that general idea is better than instruction manual.

And, sorry for another addition, but more likely in 50 years everyday people would be using plastic print guns rather than mag lev/ rail weapons, if there was any change at all.

Good points. Thanks.
Lol, I concede, the gun idea was terrible and has since been modified. I did touch up on 3D printing in my plot though; its a fascinating development.

Reziac · Sep 11, 2014

Skawt said:
Do you think it would be enough to just add in one piece of technology the characters interact with to establish the setting? I think my bottom line issue is trusting the reader. I think what I'll end up doing is just get the darned thing written and ship it off to a few betas and collect feedback.

My feeling is -- when in doubt, UNDER-explain. At worst you'll confuse people, and hopefully beta-reader complaints will clue you as to what you need to elucidate. At best it'll be just the thing to make the reader pay close attention and feel involved as they ferret out what's going on.

My method is -- just let my characters do whatever they do and let the reader "learn by doing". Sometimes turns out I need to add a little "doing" to elucidate, but not often.

So, yeah, trust your readers.

I think the issue arises mostly with readers and writers who are inexperienced at reading SF/F and are still kinda constructing as they go, rather than making the assumptions common to the experienced (such as that "hyperdrive" usually means "ship goes faster than light" and is not normally "explained"). The only cure I know for this is to read a whole lot more SF/F.

Introductions, how much is too much?

Skawt

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

Wilde_at_heart

υπείκωphobe

Osulagh

Independent fluffy puppy.

Skawt

quicklime

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SamCoulson

Skawt

quicklime

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Skawt

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Buffysquirrel

Devil Ledbetter

Come on you stranger, you legend,

Romangoblets

Jamesaritchie

Skawt

MakanJuu

Skawt

Reziac

Resident Alien

Introductions, how much is too much?

all out of fucks to give

&#965;&#960;&#949;&#943;&#954;&#969;phobe

Independent fluffy puppy.

all out of fucks to give

all out of fucks to give

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Come on you stranger, you legend,

Resident Alien

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