[YADS] Ourboox

Others have posted far more relevant comments than I about the business model and publishing issues, but I need to respond to this because it's pretty amazing.

The platform is not just for people like yourself who can 'lay a book out in two minutes' but for those who want to collaborate with an illustrator (or other person) who adds the illustrations to make a collaborative work.

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STEPS TO PUTTING OUT AN ILLUSTRATED EBOOK THAT LOOKS JUST LIKE AN OURBOOX PRODUCT

1. Find an illustrator or buy images on an existing site.
2. Open Microsoft Word.
3. Put the text on one page and the corresponding image on the facing page. Repeat.
4. Save as PDF.

Anyone can build that in a matter of minutes. It requires no special software or training. My 9-year old could do that. So from the example that you have put out there, I don't see what your technology adds. If you have something better up your sleeve, let potential users see it, or else you don't bring anything to the table.

Sorry for the blunt assessment - it's not meant as an insult - but you're a publisher, set up to take some rights to my work that I can't ever get back, and as such, your system requires a hard look.

I'm finding it very difficult to tell who said what, so I'm re-posting some things to make it clearer.

Mel, keep in mind that if your service involves formatting books, your public posts are something of an advertisement to your ability to do that. If you have difficulty getting posts formatted correctly, it's only natural that people would wonder if you had the same difficulty with books -- it takes a little effort to get everything separated properly, but it's worth it in the end .

Torgo said:

Hello Mel - thank you for dropping by.

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Mel said:

Thanks for your kind and considered comments!!!

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Torgo said:

I have been editing picture books for children for about a decade now, for several major publishing houses. What bothers me about the model you are proposing is that the thousands of dollars of savings would seem to be saved mainly by nobody getting paid for their work up front.

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Mel said:

Indeed, you have a point. It turns out that for every commissioned artist (the ones you hire) there are ten or one hundred that have day jobs and love to illustrate because they just love to illustrate. I teach at a design school and there are several students who fit this category.

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And these artists have Deviant Art, etc, available to display their own projects.

Torgo said:

If I commission an illustrator to work on a picture book, a couple of thousand dollars (against a royalty) is about the minimum I would expect to pay. This goes even for people straight out of art college. Illustrating a picture book takes a long time and a lot of work, and artists need to eat.

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Mel said:

Yes, but please also put yourself in the shoes of a writer that wants to self-publish and can't afford those 'thousands of dollars' and might settle on an amateur or semi-professional.

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But as others have pointed out, how many artists are going to want to work on someone else's project for peanuts when they could simply work on their own projects and have complete creative control?

Torgo said:

It's also somewhat rare for a book to show up on my desk for consideration with all the art in place - you get one or two worked-up pieces and the rest in rough or dummy form - and that's because nobody wants to do 12 spreads of colour a/w/ without any cash on the barrelhead.

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Mel said:

Again, you're probably referring to those few illustrators who do it for a living. I applaud and cherish them (one has lovingly illustrated most of my children's books, and I paid her handsomely for her great work).

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Torgo said:

Basically, I have my doubts that the work you'll see as a result of online dating between writers and illustrators is going to be (a) prolific (b) of marketable quality. (And let's not forget that writers and artists may not be the best judges of the best fit for their work.)

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Mel said:

I hope it will be prolific. Since the platform allows writers and illustrators to edit at any stage, they will be able to improve their skills over time. As for marketing, even very good writers have trouble in that area.

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Torgo said:

This attitude does you a lot of credit; I do want to just reiterate though that no publishing could be less like picture book publishing than scientific journal publishing. They're different enough from each other that they're barely in the same neighbourhood.

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Mel said:

Indeed, I am coming from 'left field', but that is what I tend to do, admittedly with varying degrees of success. But at least in one case, coming from petroleum microbiology to oral hygiene did yield a multi-million dollar business. Thank you so much for caring enough to post!!!

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Mel Rosenberg said:

Thank you for these kind and helpful words (but aren't we Canucks always kind and helpful)

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frimble3 said:

I may be way off the mark here, but, having read this far, it sounds as though what Ourboox is looking for is the amateur/hobbyist crowd.

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Mel said:

Or anyone dreaming of improving their skills and being the best they can. Everyone starts out writing as an amateur, after all.

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And there are lots of places online where this can be done for free -- writers have AW's "Share Your Work" critique board, along with a lot of other sites online, illustraters have Forrst, Dribbble, Deviant Art -- if you're charging for a service they offer for free, you need to make it very clear what makes your service sufficiently superior.

frimble3 said:

"People who don't have portfolios or samples, people who aren't interested in a career in writing or illustrating, who write little stories for their children, or doodle for amusement, etc. And they think they're pretty good, or at least the family likes their work.
They have no plans for publication, or a career, but now they want to do a 'real book', maybe for the kids for Christmas, but the writer needs an illustrator, or the illustrator needs words to connect the pictures. They wouldn't know where to find a pro, couldn't afford one, and a 'real' writer or illustrator would be overkill for what they want:
A few simple pictures, a little story. "

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Mel said:

I agree with everything except the last bit. Why be dismissive of writers wanting to reach out, improve and share, and without the means (as you state yourself) to pay professional services?

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frimble3 said:

"Ourboox might be suitable for that? Not that Lulu couldn't do much the same, physically, but if they want to meet other like-minded people, talk about their project, get the feel of the other person, then I suppose the 'community' thing might be handy. "

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Mel said:

That's the thought indeed. Lulu is not social, and un-sharable.

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frimble3 said:

"With a big disclaimer on the front page: Not For Commercial Use, and privacy settings.
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Mel said:

There are commercial aspects though. The books are shared in their internet form for free, but print-on-demand does cost money and should yield some royalty. There will be privacy settings, for example while creating drafts, but the whole idea of publishing on ourboox is for the world to see it (not download it, but see it) in e-book format.
Thanks again for your very helpful remarks.

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Again, there are many places online where this can be done for free. What makes your service sufficiently superior to these others to justify charging for it when they don't?

My main concerns remain intact. I'll attempt to express them clearly and coherently.

OK, I've written myself a childrens book that requires illustration, with a mind towards publication and sales. If I'm serious about this, I spend some time researching. I find out that it is common for the publisher to provide the illustrations for childrens books.

For some reason or another, the major publishers of illustrated books don't want to publish my book, however, so I start to explor other options. There are small presses, who also provide high-quality illustrations from professionals for free. Or, I can self-publish. I could hire an illustrator (if I can afford it) or use free or cheap stock imagery. On my own, I can easily produce something similar to what Ourboox produces, with little to no financial outlay. Not the best illustrated book out there, but out there. I can even get it onto most online retailers for no cost, too.

With that in mind, why would I go to Ourboox? You've told me that illustrators and authors can find each other, but what's the impetus for both of us to do so? Let's think about your insistance that the world is full of people doing art as a hobby who will be happy to spend hours of their time illustrating my book with no guarantee of financial renumeration. I will point out that even the most amateur of artists I know, with day jobs and everything, like to at least be paid a token amount for their time.

What you haven't told me in all your talking about how great this opportunity is for writers and illustrators is how you're going to get people to download and even buy physical copies of these? How are you going to get readers?

Because that's what I want. Readers. Sales. What are you offering readers that they can't get anywhere else? Why would a person buying a book for their nephew or their granddaughter or their bosses toddler come to you for a book? How will they even know to do so? What is the unique appeal to readers that makes it worthwhile me giving my valuable and never returnable first publication rights to you? Because if you can't get readers, you can't make sales.

LindaJeanne said:

I'm finding it very difficult to tell who said what, so I'm re-posting some things to make it clearer.

Mel, keep in mind that if your service involves formatting books, your public posts are something of an advertisement to your ability to do that. If you have difficulty getting posts formatted correctly, it's only natural that people would wonder if you had the same difficulty with books -- it takes a little effort to get everything separated properly, but it's worth it in the end .

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Thank you. First of all, we are talking about a project that is in closed beta phase and hasn't been launched to the public yet. So what we are discussing is what we are developing, not what we have already done. Secondly, as you might infer, I am not the person in charge of formatting

LindaJeanne said:

Again, there are many places online where this can be done for free. What makes your service sufficiently superior to these others to justify charging for it when they don't?

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As I think I explained already, all the basic features of ourboox will be free. If it isn't sufficiently superior, it won't fly and we won't be able to build an amazing community around it. Agreed on that.

Anninyn said:

What you haven't told me in all your talking about how great this opportunity is for writers and illustrators is how you're going to get people to download and even buy physical copies of these? How are you going to get readers?

Because that's what I want. Readers. Sales. What are you offering readers that they can't get anywhere else? Why would a person buying a book for their nephew or their granddaughter or their bosses toddler come to you for a book? How will they even know to do so? What is the unique appeal to readers that makes it worthwhile me giving my valuable and never returnable first publication rights to you? Because if you can't get readers, you can't make sales.

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As I think I explained, ourboox is an opportunity for writers and illustrators to share their books over the internet for free. There should be a print-on-demand option, but basically we are trying to create a community of people who would rather share their books for free to a wide community. Clearly, it's not for the 0.3% of successully published/self-published writers, but for the majority who want to write, draw, share. Thanks for allowing me to make this clarification.

JournoWriter said:

Others have posted far more relevant comments than I about the business model and publishing issues, but I need to respond to this because it's pretty amazing.



STEPS TO PUTTING OUT AN ILLUSTRATED EBOOK THAT LOOKS JUST LIKE AN OURBOOX PRODUCT

1. Find an illustrator or buy images on an existing site.
2. Open Microsoft Word.
3. Put the text on one page and the corresponding image on the facing page. Repeat.
4. Save as PDF.
.

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Thanks for your remarks. Yes, you could go that route indeed. So for ourboox to succeed, we have to offer functionaliy, ease of use and features far beyond that. And that is what we are working on now. Thanks again.

Mel Rosenberg said:

As I think I explained, ourboox is an opportunity for writers and illustrators to share their books over the internet for free. There should be a print-on-demand option, but basically we are trying to create a community of people who would rather share their books for free to a wide community. Clearly, it's not for the 0.3% of successully published/self-published writers, but for the majority who want to write, draw, share. Thanks for allowing me to make this clarification.

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THen you will need to make it clear on your site that by sharing their work for free they lose first rights, reducing their likelihood of that piece being published in the future unless it gets really, really popular - just so that people know exactly what they're getting into.

(I would question whether 'the majority' wish to 'share for free', personally - maybe in fanfic and fanart. I've never ever offered anything for free I thought was good enough to sell and I'm a beginner)

Also, I'd advise doing competitor research on places like figment, authonomy, fanfic.net, deviantart etc that already allow people to share their work to masses of readers for free, as well as posessing a social element. And I will point out that if I want to share my work to readers for free, I have a blog and things like tumblr where things can suddenly take off and go viral. You're going to need to figure out how you're going to compete with places that already offer that kind of thing.

I'm still not sure you'll attract as many illustrators as you think you will, or that your model will work as you expect it to, but as long as you are absolutely clear with what authors and illuistrators are giving away in terms of rights by making their work available through you... well, time will tell.

JournoWriter said:

Sorry for the blunt assessment - it's not meant as an insult - but you're a publisher, set up to take some rights to my work that I can't ever get back, and as such, your system requires a hard look.

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Again, the concept is for people who are happy and eager to write, illustrate, share, and still maintain the large majority of their rights. Those who are concerned about losing 'first publishing rights' will clearly not be inclined to publish on ourboox. But again, such rights are only valuable when a publisher picks up a manuscript, which in itself is an extremely rare event. So yes, some people will wait and pray to be amongst the 0.1 or 0.3% lucky to be successfully published using the current systems, and others may be happy to take advantage of the ourboox platform and community. Thanks for all your remarks.

Thank you everyone for this challenging thread. I am not a youngster and have lots of experience starting new projects that initially seem to fly in the face of conventional wisdom, and it looks like this is the case here as well. I am going to take a couple of days off from the thread (I have to prepare a presentation for London next week), and hope to get back to the 'ping pong' at a later date. In the meantime I'll ponder all the comments you have made so that ourboox will offer something appealing and attractive to most of the people trying to publish and reach out.

You keep framing this as some form of 'flying in the face of conventional wisdom' as if it means you're doing things in a 'rogue' way, when I think what most of us are attempting to tell you is that this is -

a. just the opposite, as there are plenty of these places, and

b. you seem to lack an understanding of several aspects of what you're discussing, that you keep on about as if you actually understand.

Whatever. I give up, as you don't seem to be listening or understanding those aspects and clearly prefer your interpretation.

I'm still not clear on what you're offering that makes you competitive with the many, many other websites with already-well-established communities that do what you say you are going to do. What's your edge? What do you offer to draw people in, to counter-balance the fact that you don't yet have the large community and audience that these other sites have?

Edited to add: what might clarify it for me is if you list who you see as your three closest competitors, and the advantages you plan offer over each of them.

I'm sorry, dude, you seem to mean well, but...unicorns.

I wouldn't call these people "amateurs." I'd call them "rare and mostly mythical."

It's just...Do you know how many tragic threads are out there saying "Need an artist! No pay!" and "Need an illustrator who will get excited about my art!"? This is literally a running gag in the webcomics community. We actually, no kidding, advise people that they are better off learning to draw themselves than to hope for an artist who's any good and wants to work for free.

I really can't think that you've done any research in this field if you think there are hordes of hobbyists out there wanting to do free work. That you had some students who didn't know where to find paying gigs and bought into the "exposure" myth speaks only to lack or experience and--forgive me--poor instruction.

I would like to, once again, thank you for your grace under pressure, Mel. I too have concerns about Ourboox--especially the legalities involved. I think your next step should be to run out and read all of the material on copyright and intellectual property law you can get your hands on (and it wouldn't hurt to supliment that with a thorough course in buisness ethics). But, if nothing else, you have displayed a high level of professionalism in your communications, which is much appreciated.

I've just flicked through Edna Grossbart Lives. Odd punctuation, misused words, missing words, misspellings - it's a mess, and the cover appears to have been drawn by an eight year old. I'm sorry, but I can't imagine anyone other than the parents of the author and artist wanting to buy it.

Not to mention the woman on the cover (I could not access the inside) appears to be smoking, which is generally considered inappropriate for picture book readers. I have to wonder if Ourboox has any kind of content filter--what prevents someone from uploading other materials inappropriate for the audience? As in, if someone tries to upload a book with pornographic illustrations, what's going to stop them?

I'm also struck by the vast difference in quality between the illustrations for The Lost Puppies, which are adorable and of professional quality, and the text, which is neither.

epublishabook said:

Thank you all for your comments.
Having taken all of these into consideration, we came to the conclusion that Ourboox might not, at this stage, be an option for authors to publish their entire books with us, though we still believe it will be in the future.

However, especialy as we are beginning to score fairly well in search engines for older books, we would like to know if publishing sample chapters with a link to Amazon book selling point might be something authors would be interested in.

The next step would be to create an embedable version of these sample chapters for authors to put on their own blog/website.

We would love to hear your opinion about that option.

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I don't understand the point? I also don't see how it'd be different from Goodreads, Wattpad, etc., etc. Writers put samples on their blogs and websites now if they want. What would they need you for?

epublishabook said:

The point is, search engines favor sites with a lot of content. Having a lot of content on one site translates in higher visibility in search engines. That means that publishing the very same content on a private blog or on a site with a large amount of content has a totally different impact in seaerch results.

So, if you were to publish sample chapters on a site that offers a dedicated online reading platform (no download or registration required) with a growing content, you would personally benefit from every other author's participation and help fellow authors in the process.

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You say this as if people don't do this now.

People put their stuff on their sites, on Amazon, Goodreads, Smashwords, etc., etc., etc.

Another site, but unknown, with no visibility, saying 'us too!' for no reason you're explaining besides, 'us too?' doesn't seem like a workable plan.

There were also the other many thousands of "us too"s. Joining each one would leave very little time for anything else.