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Roger J Carlson

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Do any of the pros here know someone at Christopher Little or Curtis Brown and can verify their involvement with this? That would go a long way to divert suspicion.

Frankly, youwriteon, some of your wording leaves me concerned.

"Christopher Little and Curtis Brown consider recommended chapters"
"... are considered by affiliated top UK literary agencies each month"

What does "consider" mean? Curtis Brown considers hundreds of queries and sample chapters every month. They considered mine (and rejected it). Do you mean they actively encourage submission of your winning projects and give them special attention? Or do they just allow these submissions, giving them no more attention than anything else in the slush pile.

"We are funded by Arts Council, England - the UK’s largest grant giving body for the arts"

There are lots of things funded by arts councils all over the world. Many of them are not always worth while. (We've all seen articles about some of the ridiculous things arts councils have given money for.) Arts councils exist to give money away and they're not necessarily publishing professionals.

I'm not saying that YouWriteOn is a scam. Far from it. However, I question whether it's worthwhile. I don't think you've demonstrated that writers are any better off by using your service than they would be using other critique means (crit groups, writer's sites, workshops, etc.) With over 8000 reviews, surely SOMEONE would have been offered representation by now!

Basically, you're providing an unpaid slush-pile reading service. You're not giving all writers a better chance, just the best ones. Nothing wrong with that, but I contend that those writers would have succeeded without the service. If it was good enough to be the highest rated submission, some agent somewhere would pick it up.

I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing. I think it does provide a service. But I don't think it's anything revolutionary or industry-changing. You've just moved the slush-pile one more step away from the publisher. Your reviewers might better spend their time working on their own writing rather than giving away it away reviewing other writers for you.
 

James D. Macdonald

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In re the top agents: how is coming to them through YouWriteOn different from putting three-and-an-outline into an envelope and submitting to them directly? Where's the advantage?

And ... I hate to be the one to tell you this, but POD published novels tend to sell around seventy-five copies, usually to the author's family and friends.

The highest rated book of the year will be published by YouWriteOn - available to order through Amazon, Waterstones, Barnes and Noble, and W.H. Smith.

If the book is genuinely good it should be published, and not via POD. "Available for order" is not the same thing as "shelved." Shelved is the minimum you need if you expect readers.

Helping authors improve their art and get published, good. Encouraging authors to self-publish via POD, not-so-good.
 

Roger J Carlson

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Do any of the pros here know anyone at Christopher Little and Curtis Brown who might be able to verify their involvement with this project? Do they give submissions from YouWriteOn special attention? Do they even know about it?

Strikes me they're just providing an unpaid slush pile reading service. Only the winners get considered by an agent and if they're that good, they probably would have been seriously considered by an agent anyway.
 

Tsu Dho Nimh

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Needs a bailing point

FergieC said:
I've been using YWO for a while now, and what Tsu says isn't quite true. It's only one review you have to do to get one back (ocassionally you strike lucky and get two for one).

My bad ... you have to do three to get into the ratings system, but reviews are a 1-1 thing.

You do have to pass a test, but that's to prove you've actually read the chapters, which seems fair. After all, would you really want to recieve a review from someone who hadn't bothered to read your work? If you get a piece that's unreadable, or just not your type of thing, you don't have to review it.

The problem is that a truly horrible book will never get a review. The first piece I saw had nit-picking questions, presumable by the author, with answers totally buried in lengthy, ungrammatical, convoluted prose.

If I were doing a peer-review site, I would have a bail-out point that didn't count for getting a review, where the reader could say "not my genre", "too many grammar and spelling errors to continue", or "unfocused and meandering, please rewrite".

And it's POD ...
 

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YouWriteOn said:
Re whether anyone has been accepted anyone, top literary agents like Christopher Little and Curtis Brown consider recommended chapters but, just like any other site, we have no magic wand to wave over them to encourage them to take books and they make their decisions based on what they consider is marketable.

I understand that. Nobody's expecting magic.

I wouldn't expect that any of your writers had been offered contracts if there were 4 or 5 of them. Out of 40 or 50, maybe not.

However, you posted that you've had 8,000 reviews. If the best mss out of 8,000 have not received a contract, then that tells me that your service isn't doing anything for anybody but you. You're offering the same critiques that I can get with any writing circle and no improvement over my chances vs. just sending my submissions to agents and/or publishers.

It sounds like a waste of time to me.
 

Cathy C

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I know someone at Curtis Brown US, but isn't this a UK peer site? Would they mean CB UK (which is a whole different company. They aren't affiliated in any way?)
 

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YouWriteOn said:
Re literary agents, one of the leading literary agencies contacted us with regard to one of our books in the top twenty as they really liked the author's style and were interested in exploring them writing a book. I hope this answers your questions.

Only one book out of your top twenty gets an expression of interest equivalent to, say, a request to see the full manuscript. This strikes me as unimpressive. Your unique selling point over other net-based critique sites is this supposed priviliged access to 'top' agents and, at this point, it does not hold up.
 

FergieC

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You're offering the same critiques that I can get with any writing circle and no improvement over my chances vs. just sending my submissions to agents and/or publishers

I've been a member of a lot of writing groups (still am, in fact). They're great, and very useful too. But you have the same small circle of people reading, or often just hearing you read, your work then commenting off the top of their heads. A site like this gives the chance for more considered feedback, from a lot more people, and on the first three chapters or so, which is what you'd send off to an agent. Also, the professional critiques are far more detailed and useful than you could ever get from a writers group.

I know for sure that my first few chapters are far better now than they were when I put them up, which gives them a much better chance with agents than they would have had just sending them out blind - plus it's been a lot of fun getting all the feedback and re-writing from that, which sending out to agents and getting rejections but not knowing why really isn't!

Nothing ever suits everyone, and reviewing other work can be time consuming, but it can be enjoyable too, I've learned quite a bit from reviewing other work, and reading the professional crits of other peoples work too. If it's not for you, or you don't think it's worthwhile, that's fair enough - but it's hardly a good enough reason to go straight to a 'bewares' thread and speculate on all the ways you think it's somehow all a big fraud or a bad idea!
 
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YouWriteOn

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Do any of the pros here know someone at Christopher Little or Curtis Brown and can verify their involvement with this? That would go a long way to divert suspicion.

I'm not saying that YouWriteOn is a scam. Far from it. However, I question whether it's worthwhile.

Hi Roger, you could give Christopher Little a call if you wish as long as you don't mind calling collect from the US! Is that phrase correct? I picked it up from too many US films, I'm a bit of a buff. Their editors are currently working with one of our authors, Smoke Portrait by Trilby Kent after we referred them to her and they were very impressed with her opening chapters. If you like Historical Fiction and literary fiction, please visit the site for a look.

The Random House Group, who represent writers such as John Grisham and Bill Bryson are also currently reading and commenting on our Top Ten each month. View the site for more details.

We hope these developments are worthwhile for writers.
 
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Angelinity

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fergiec, ted - the guys you're talking to here are not amateurs. they've been through the wringer many times over. slow down, you're starting to sound 'partisanish'...

youwriteon will eventually come to stand on its own if it proves itself. the harder you defend it, the more suspicions you raise.
 
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Roger J Carlson

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FergieC said:
If it's not for you, or you don't think it's worthwhile, that's fair enough - but it's hardly a good enough reason to go straight to a 'bewares' thread...
Being on Bewares and Background Check is not necessarily a black mark for a company. This is not a board that says, "These are scams." It a place for writers to get together to share information and opinions about agents and publishers.

To be honest, there ARE a lot more threads about scams than good agents/publishers, but if you look around, you'll find many threads that ask about an agent or publisher and there are a chorus of positive posts. This one, for instance.

FergieC said:
...and speculate on all the ways you think it's somehow all a big fraud or a bad idea!
You'll have to help me out on this one. I can't find a post that says YouWriteOn is a fraud. I do see posts that question its efficacy. Can you point out a post that says it's a fraud?

As for saying why it's a bad idea, well, that's what this board is for -- to express opinions. You think it's a good idea. I think it's a bad idea. We both give reasons for our opinions and others can decide for themselves. What's wrong with that?
 
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Roger J Carlson

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YouWriteOn said:
As mentioned, national media like the BBC have also told us they will return to the story so we hope this will assist the winner and shortlist with very good promotion. And break the mid-list deadlock for someone.
I honestly wish you the best. I really do hope that this will accomplish what you think it will. (I don't think it will, but I'd love to be wrong.) I hope that if you DO have success story, you'll come back and share it with us.

We're not necessarily antagonistic here, just wary.
 

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YouWriteOn said:
I think there's a more interesting debate at stake, which is the crisis in traditional publishing for talented writers. You may care to contribute in the following debate which has details from the UK Authors Guild about the crisis. I'd be interested to hear if the U.S. is experiencing similar difficulties.
The report on midlist books you cite is from the U.S. Authors Guild (the equivalent UK organization is the Society of Authors), and discusses the midlist crisis, or whatever one wants to call it, as it pertains the US book market. It makes for interesting reading, but it's rather dated (it was published in 2000) and the situation may now be even worse. At any rate, the midlist problem is old news in the US.
As mentioned, national media like the BBC have also told us they will return to the story so we hope this will assist the winner and shortlist with very good promotion. And break the mid-list deadlock for someone.
To be consigned to the midlist, you need actually to have published. Midlist-ism afflicts established writers, not first-timers.
And, importantly, what are we doing as writers and writers sites to try to combat this, as well as looking at the result, the huge amount of POD publishers, it would be useful to do something about the cause of why so many talented writers are using them?
I think this is rather overstating the case (as to talent, at any rate). The notion that the world of POD (whether by "POD" you mean one of the fee-based services or one of the many, and mostly amateur, small publishing operations on the Internet) is full of hidden gems is as inaccurate as the idea that the slush pile is awash in undiscovered genius. I'm not saying that some talented people don't wind up with POD publishers--but POD seems to attract mainly first-time or previously unpublished writers, the great majority of whom are not ready for prime time. And I'm not aware that large numbers of writers who've made it as far as the midlist are turning to POD.
There's the story of the budding author who submitted his book and got the manuscript back each time with the words "I enjoyed your story but it is not right for us at this time'. So, finally, he submitted a copy of his washing machine manual and, after diligently waiting several weeks, got the response "I enjoyed your story but it is not right for us at this time."
What does this prove? Assuming that the writer submitted a query and samples and not the full, unsolicited manuscript (which is basically an automatic reject), this form response is a nicer way of saying a whole range of things, from "this is just not interesting enough" to "this is totally inappropriate for our agency" to "your writing stinks." Agents don't owe detailed responses on each rejection (in fact, the fiction that they do used to be a common justification for charging "evaluation" fees), and they're no more fond than anyone else of saying no.

I think it's clear that YouWriteOn is well-intentioned, and I imagine that the critique functions of the site--both by members and by the professionals--are very helpful for many writers.

However, I don't think you're doing your membership any favors by publishing the top-rated book yourself, thus dooming it to POD obscurity. And I very much doubt that your affiliation with literary agencies--no matter how reputable--will be of great benefit to your members. Possibly your submissions will get a bit more attention--assuming that you consistently submit marketable material--but this will not confer any priority as to representation. Plus, if the book really was marketable, the agency might well have asked for it if the author had queried directly, rather than going through your service.

- Victoria
 
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Like a good New England Town Meeting

Lots of nice, spirited, mostly good natured back and forth here about YouWriteOn. I'm a bit puzzled about just why this is such a problem for some folks, after all, for most of the participants in YWO it serves mostly as a community gathering spot, a place to meet, to help, console, encourage, share and, in many cases, to improve. Can all this be done with a weekly writers' group meeting for chapters/poems/whatevers in a cozy living room? Sure. Problem is, at least for me, that sort of regularly scheduled get-together is impossible due to other obligations, like making a living. Besides, even if I had such a venue in which to share and work it wouldn't include people from all over the world who can give me such diverse points of view.

If agents and publishers pay attention to what rises to the top at YWO that is terrific. If it takes a long time before anything of an earthshaking nature happens, like signing a YWO writer to a three book deal, that's okay too. Anyone expecting even a sincere, pretty well put together effort by anyone to immediately turn around this monster called the publishing world is pretty darned optimistic.

The problem here is that there is an immediate and rather considerable power wielded by large websites in shaping perception. If you have seen what appears to be an orchestrated effort by those of us who have been using and benefiting from YouWriteOn, please understand that we just want to balance the perception.

I live in Arizona, make my living managing a store, have been writing for decades and have found over the years that not all of what is accepted wisdom in the world of writing is true, at least not for everyone. You have to figure out what works for you. I know that POD is a dirty word around here and I'll be the first to admit that I haven't made dime one yet from my own book. At least not directly. But it did give me something to donate to the local libraries. Those copies are checked out on a regular basis, giving me a readership that included a reader for the Arizona Library for the Blind. My book is now available in audio form (no cost to me, just my permission). It also has gotten exposure in local magazines, resulting in more sales and, even better, a gig as a regular columnist in a regional bi-monthly magazine. My fourth column was submitted and accepted today. None of that would have happened if I hadn't decided to risk a few bucks and go the dreaded, humiliating POD route. Right for everyone? Probably not, but so far the positives are stacking up on the side of my rash decision

And here I rail against these message boards as a distraction and time-filler when we should be working.

Guilty as can be.

I wish everyone the best with their writing. Thanks to both AW and YWO for being there and doing a terrific job.

Best,
Alan
 

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victoriastrauss said:
To be consigned to the midlist, you need actually to have published. Midlist-ism afflicts established writers, not first-timers.

Greetings, Victoria, I'm afraid this isn't the case, at least here in the UK, one of the leading literary agents informed us that when they consider authors this also means how they consider potential mid-list writers who are unpublished first-timers. Great books are published all the time, and that's excellent and an indication of the commitment by the industry, but we were also contacted by a best-selling children's book writer here, who'd had a TV series produced of their book, and they informed us that their last story had unfortunately not been accepted. I think it is a concern that affects both new and established writers. A big publisher told us that the industry really looks at a book to see if it will be a best-seller, and the days where authors could publish mid-list books and be given one or two books to grow into their craft are largely behind us for most. At the same time, we of course still see great writing published all the time, it's difficult for the industry as there are so many different medium competing for buyers attention. We hope they'll be different mediums developing that will assist writers at all levels.
 
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There's also the amusing anecdote of the writer who sent a washing machine manuscript into a agent, and received a standard reply that though the writing wasn't for them they'd enjoyed the work! The washing machine anecdote perhaps needs some more explaination. The writer had folded a page to see if the agent had read it. They hadn't. Or maybe they had but were having a little joke back! We do of course see sterling work published all the time, and YouWriteOn is pleased to work with agencies such as Curtis Brown and Christopher Little who consider writers work.
 
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victoriastrauss

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YouWriteOn said:
Greetings, Victoria, I'm afraid this isn't the case, at least here in the UK, one of the leading literary agents informed us that when they consider authors this also means how they consider potential mid-list writers who are unpublished first-timers.
What this means is that this agent considers--from his or her own educated but subjective perspective--whether the author's novel is the sort that might wind up in the midlist, if published. Another agent might feel differently. No one can be termed a "midlist writer" until they have actually published a couple of books. It's sales numbers, not someone else's assessment of your potential, that makes you a midlister.
The washing machine anecdote perhaps needs some more explaination. The writer had folded a page to see if the agent had read it. They hadn't.
And why should they, once they saw it was a washing machine manual? I know this kind of anecdote is meant to prove the heartless indifference of agents, or something, but really it just proves that writers take rejection personally.

- Victoria
 

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victoriastrauss said:
What this means is that this agent considers--from his or her own educated but subjective perspective--whether the author's novel is the sort that might wind up in the midlist, if published. Another agent might feel differently. No one can be termed a "midlist writer" until they have actually published a couple of books. It's sales numbers, not someone else's assessment of your potential, that makes you a midlister.

- Victoria

Well more than one agent commented that they consider what would be prospective midlist so I accept their opinion on this. There's certainly a lot of subjectivity goes on out there, but undoubtedly as voiced by the agents they do make these considerations and label writers before contacting publishers.

Re the article, the writer did actually use it to see if manuscripts were read. He'd also got the same response from another agent when he'd sent a submission of his manuscript, apparently unopened. It was an interesting article in one of our broadsheets over here, and he was very philosphical. It wasn't intended to prove the heartless indifference of agents really but more just a filler and his wry experience. Considering that the Zanussi manual is already a best seller among washing machine users I'm sure this would be a saturated field anyway. 'Saturated', there's a pun there somewhere.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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YouWriteOn said:
The writer had folded a page to see if the agent had read it.

Agents (and editors) are wise to that trick. (Also the putting-a-hair-between pages 10 and 11 trick, and turning a page upside down, and all the rest.)

If y'all haven't yet read Slushkiller, you ought to.

Please be aware that this isn't the first time any of the things YouWriteOn is doing have been tried. International communities of authors who comment on each others' works? Been done, still being done -- Critters.org and fanstory.com for example. Plans whereby top-rated stories would be read by agents and/or editors at major places? Been done -- iPublish (Time-Warner) and Inside Sessions (Penguin Putnam) for example -- not being done any more because they didn't work.

Here's Inside Sessions from 2001:

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madcow

FergieC said:
Yes, there are scams out there, but there are also genuinely good resources that are trying to help new writers. It can be hard to tell sometimes, but a little digging and giving people the right to reply could really help in that respect - which would be of far more benefit to everyone than threads full of ill-informed speculation.

I agree - we all need to be open-minded about things and not just assume the worst. I've been a member of Youwriteon for a while and have found it really helpful and have had loads of reviews - most constructive, some not - but that's how it goes. And frankly, the POD aspect has never really crossed my mind - this seems to be something maybe US members are more concerned about. Also - do bear in mind youwriteon is an evolving site and changes are being (and have already been) made in accordance with what its members suggest.
 

Tsu Dho Nimh

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not being done any more because they didn't work.

Any autopsy results? Why didn't they work?

My guess would be that they turned into a really huge slush pile with almost no publishable work because every writer who had ever been rejected dusted off the envelope and sent it in.
 

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These were places where full peer-reviewing was in place, where only the very best of the best as voted on by the other members was passed up the line ... and it turned out that what got passed up the line wasn't any better than any other random day's worth of slush. Perhaps it's because unpublished authors don't know what's commercially publishable (if they did they wouldn't stay unpublished), perhaps because as large as the sample might be it was still only a tiny percentage of the universe of writers.

But perhaps it was because administering the Slush Olympics isn't the chief part of any editor's or agent's job. (The chief part of those jobs is publishing the books they already have under contract the best they can and representing the clients they already have under contract the best they can.)
 

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Doesn't Baen's Bar currently work this system?
 

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James D. Macdonald said:
Here are Baen's Universe Slush guidelines.

And here's an article about the Baen's Bar community.

Thanks Uncle Jim! I never heard of those before and will spend some time looking over there.

Now, a bit off topic, but it needs to be said. Sockpuppets? Newbies? Listen up:

--Absolute Sage-- is a member voted by AW Board owners and Moderators as a very reliable source.

If you don't understand any of this you should, at the very least, spend some time here:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34886

As you were....

With Respect,
RT