So bummed my mom didn't find an agent nor publisher

[BetsyComedy]

Originally Posted by Old Hack

You need to find agents who have a history of making good sales to good publishers; and who like the sort of book you've written. You could try making a list of books you've heard of, and books you've seen in bookshops and being read on the bus, and books your friends have been talking about, which are similar in genre to your book: then find out who represents the authors of those books.

You can also look up agents on the various listings websites but don't forget to check them on Preditors and Editors and in AW's Bewares room too.

It's tough because I can more easily find the producers for my show because I know and understand it. Finding agents and publishers for her genre of book is a challenge. She has no direction, not that I do. But I know she will become so overwhelmed with info. I will try to find time to help her but wish my own stuff was in a better place.

AW has members who have self published successfully for just a few hundred dollars. Check out any of the diary threads in our Self Publishing room, especially MerriHiatt's (she's a bit of a hero of mine). If you go with a vanity publisher like AuthorHouse then yes, you will end up paying over the odds: but if you do it all yourself, and pay just the people you need, then you'll find it much more affordable. Marketing and promotion will take a lot of work, though.

Good to know, thank you. On Amazon you pay a fee to publish and then tons more for them to market your book, make it more visible. Boy does it add up. One really has to have or make time to do it, or money to pay them, one or the other at the least.

Please don't become an agent.

You might have a good track record in sales, but good agenting involves far more than that. You need to know publishing inside and out, and to have solid connections in the business--and you don't, I'm afraid.

I meant agents for the TV and movie world, not that it's easier but I'd be more familiar with it than the book world. I am not rushing to do that just yet hehe, it was just sort of a fleeting thought because so much of many writers futures depend on these people. Hard to believe the 2 biggest tv/movie agents in the country (or world) began the way they did. One in the mail room and the other as an assistant to an agent.

Betsy, thanks for being such a good sport. You're being told a lot of hard truths here, and you're responding with politeness and interest. That takes a certain amount of resolve and good nature, and I'm grateful to you for it.

Yeah you guys are brutal! LOL. Just kidding. Yeah well I'd rather know the truth than waste time doing the wrong things. You guys have taken time to help me and I am grateful for that. It is my goal to do the same once I have some knowledge under my belt to give back.

And thanks also Polenth and Anne for the words of encouragement and anyone I am missing because I should be in bed.

Good night all!

[Old Hack]

Originally Posted by BetsyComedy

I will look into SYW forum for her, thank you. I encouraged her tonight to get back into meeting with other writers too. I will post for her in a forum that allows it and see what people say.

Betsy, you can't post your mother's work here for her. You can only post your own. If she wants to have her work critiqued here she'll have to join up for herself, I'm afraid.

[bearilou]

Originally Posted by Anne Lyle

Generally, though, the people who don't get published are the people who give up.

I wanted to tease this out to QFT. It's a hard row to hoe for some. For some, lightning struck fast and hot but for many, nope. The hard long slog of doing the query rounds, reworking the query letter, doing another set of rounds, more reworking, the occasional bite that doesn't turn to interest....it's a cycle that repeats until you either give up or finally land an agent. Perseverance is just as necessary as patience.

You said your mom doesn't mind the hard work, which is great because when she gets a contract, as others have pointed out, the work starts up again, this time in edits.

Is she prepared for that?

Also, something that I've noticed only one other touched on and it's something that you really haven't addressed either. Writers write. That's pretty well known. Is she working on something new? That's the best advice to give any writer. You write, you polish until it shines and you start the query process. While you query, you start your next book. Is she writing her next book? What are her expectations for this book? Is this a one time thing and she doesn't ever plan to write another? These are things to consider.

Good to know, thank you. On Amazon you pay a fee to publish and then tons more for them to market your book, make it more visible. Boy does it add up. One really has to have or make time to do it, or money to pay them, one or the other at the least.

Um...with all due respect, what? Since when does Amazon charge a fee to publish with them and then more to market for you? Is this a new development I haven't heard of?

I agree that you have to have or make the time to do it, but that's true of any dream you're trying to see as a reality. Writing really is no different. The form it takes is all that changes.

[Cyia]

On Amazon you pay a fee to publish

No you don't. You just upload the book. The lack of fees is why KPD's taken off so quickly as an option.

Also have your mom check out Query Shark. Read all of the archives. I can guarantee you there's more than "one issue" if she only got one request out of a hundred. I can't tell you what's wrong with the query, but sometimes if you read a ton of them back to back things will start to jump out at you in your own.

[Katrina S. Forest]

Originally Posted by BetsyComedy

It's not that she's not willing to do the work. She did do the work.

What concerns me here is the implication that she's done. Or at least, done until an agent or editor says to change something. But anyone who's serious about finding representation isn't done until they have that offer in hand. Then they're onto the next step of their writing journey.

I'm nine years, seven rough-draft novels, three polished-enough to query novels, more short stories than I care to think about, a few short story sales, over a hundred rejections, a few partials, ten full requests, and three requests to revise and resubmit into my quest to publish. I'm not done. In fact, if the latest R&R doesn't work out, I know exactly what I'm going to query next.

Erm, my point being that you can't put all your hopes for publication on one book and one query letter. (Well, you can, but odds are, unless you're incredibly lucky and talented, it's going to end in disappointment.)

[kaitie]

Honestly, the best things she can do at this point are a) write a new book and b) find a good, impartial critique.

If she's tired of this book, that's fine. I've hit that point before. I'd edited and reedited and finally was at a point where I had to put it aside. Granted, I came back six months later and looked at it again, and then after a year, but still. Putting something aside is fine.

If she's writing something new, that will help because usually you fall in love with the new story and the old one doesn't matter as much. Yes, you still love it, but you aren't pinning all of your hopes and dreams on one book. And honestly, most first books just aren't that good. If the book has flaws, your mother is probably too close to it at this point to see them (that's where an impartial critique can come in handy). You get it in your head that things go one way, and it can be hard to see it any other way. Then you get a crit that gives good advice but you still can't see it. Then you cry and rant and angrily call a friend about how you can't possibly fix the problems, and then you figure out how to do it and you do it. Well, those are my steps anyway, others my vary.

But point being, if she's too close to it she won't see what's wrong with it and it will be hard for her to see what she's doing. The longer you work on something, the harder and more frustrating it gets to do things like rewrite query letters. I know after about thirteen drafts of mine I was ready to scream at even the thought of writing another one.

In publishing you can't pin all your hopes on one book. You just can't. My first book I thought was good enough (and it was far from my first) wasn't. I worked so hard on that book, I love the characters, and I plotted everything out and got betas and rewrote so much of it so many times, improving it each time.

It was the next book that got me an agent, and my agent has said that first book has too many flaws to submit. I have betas who have read and adored it, but it's still got a few issues that I, even now, haven't figured out how to solve.

As for the book that got me the agent? That one didn't sell. Had a ton of great feedback, no one really had any problems with the book, but no one wanted it, either. That still hurts like hell. I'm working on a new one now, but I have no idea if that one's going to sell, either.

The point is, publishing is a long game for a lot of people. Yes, some people submit to five people, get an agent, and sell overnight. Some people self-publish and a month later have sold a hundred thousand copies. But for the vast majority of us, it's a process that involves writing multiple books before we're even good enough to get an agent, and even then I've heard only something like 60% of agented books sell (which is pretty darn low).

I'm sure you and your mom never thought it was easy, but the fact is, it's not just not easy--it's something that takes perseverance and dedication and a willingness to keep trying and keep working.

If your mom loves to write, encourage her to write. There's no reason she has to be published right now is there? Get her involved here, or stay involved yourself and you can at least help her out. Publishing has changed a lot over the past few years, so you can learn more about the industry, too. But mostly, I'm just afraid that if your mom doesn't start something new, she's going to be disappointed. Even if she self-publishes, most sell very few copies. IMO, self-publishing because you couldn't get commercially published is one of the worst reasons to do it, unless you know the book is at commercial standards in terms of writing and editing and you have the funds and know-how to do it well.

ETA: The fact that the book can't be narrowed beyond "general fiction" seems like a problem to me. I'm a person who writes books that are odd and somewhat genreless myself, but I also know what I'm going for, and I've always found at least one category I can put the books into. What other books out there are similar? What genre are those?

Most books have elements of different genres. You can have a suspense novel with paranormal elements and a romantic side-plot, for instance, but it's still a suspense novel. Even narrowing it down a little more could help with the agent hunt.

[aikigypsy]

Getting feedback, here or elsewhere, on the query and the manuscript as a whole is probably a good idea. Getting a book (or even a poem or an article) to the point where it's ready for publication seems like a never-ending process. Seven years is a lot of time, but many (including myself) have been at it for longer than that before successful publication.

I am in the process of getting something ready to self-publish, and I'd recommend reading up on self-publishing. Does your mom have an e-reader? I've been reading the Smashwords "Secrets to ebook Publishing Success" and I think it presents a pretty complete, if somewhat rose-tinted picture of what it takes to succeed as a self-publisher. Spending lots of money isn't an important part of the formula. Mark Coker circles back again and again to the same thing you'll find here and elsewhere: the most important thing is to write the absolute best book that you can, and only then putting it out there.

A friend of mine recommended DeviantArt as a place to get bids for inexpensive cover art and design, but for now I'm doing my own cover design with my husband's help (he went to art college and is a whiz with photoshop).

[BetsyComedy]

Originally Posted by Old Hack

Betsy, you can't post your mother's work here for her. You can only post your own. If she wants to have her work critiqued here she'll have to join up for herself, I'm afraid.

Yes, I read and understood what so many said about not being able to post on her behalf. That's why I'm posting it someplace that allows, not here. Unlike me, it would take her forever to get to 50 posts. Now worries I abide by rules

No my mom does not have an e-reader. Will look into what it is.

Hmmmm, Kaitie, I will try to figure out out how to narrow her book into a more specific category. I know the first half is historical, then the next half continues to current time. There is some romance as well. But I don't see it in the history section because that's part of it and fiction too, nor the romance section of books.

Regarding the agent who took your 2nd book but not the 1st; you think your first has flaws and maybe it does, but aren't they worth fixing once you know how? You worked so long on it. To me it seems like there is more subjectivity involved than simply it's good or bad. Not all agents see things the same and not all are equally qualified.The same applies to movies, food, etc...professional critics don't always agree.

Right or wrong, my mom would rather put all her energy in one book going somewhere before starting another, this one was her passion. Like most writers she's made tons and tons of edits. Some people are writers by trade, others have one great idea and that's it. Maybe it's not ideal, but hopefully doesn't mean the one idea doesn't go anywhere just because there aren't 5 more behind it, which may not even be as good. Though she would be more inclined to do more once this goes somewhere. But it would not be a novel, but say, a cook book, because she's a master chef and baker.

As far as Amazon, I recall them making your book more visible costing a lot. I guess I will look into it again...

Thanks all for the suggestions I will compile them everything so I don't forget anything.

[BenPanced]

Originally Posted by BetsyComedy

Yes, I read and understood what so many said about not being able to post on her behalf. That's why I'm posting it someplace that allows, not here. Unlike me, it would take her forever to get to 50 posts. Now worries I abide by rules

Betsy, as mentioned before, your mother needs to do the work for herself. Period. You doing it for her is a huge disservice and prevents her from learning how the business works and how to navigate her way through it. Helping her is one thing; doing the work for her is another.

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by BetsyComedy

Regarding the agent who took your 2nd book but not the 1st; you think your first has flaws and maybe it does, but aren't they worth fixing once you know how? You worked so long on it. To me it seems like there is more subjectivity involved than simply it's good or bad. Not all agents see things the same and not all are equally qualified.The same applies to movies, food, etc...professional critics don't always agree.

It's true that it's a matter of opinion - but the agent is looking for lots of different things in a manuscript. Not just good writing, but a book he can sell to the editors he knows. Say you query a book and the agent loves your writing and thinks you have promise, but you've written something that he knows there is no demand for at the moment (for example, there was a real slump in the horror genre in the 1990s). So he asks if you have anything else, and you send him an even better novel in a hot new genre. No amount of editing is going to make your first book commercially viable - it can't be "fixed" because the problems are with the market not the manuscript.

The same could be true of your mum's book. It may be excellent, but the book trade is going through tough times and agents aren't going to want to take on a manuscript they can't sell to a big house in the next 12 months. For books like that, self-publishing can be a good route because there are readers for it, just not as many as the big publishers are looking for.

Addendum: I know Kaitie said her first book was flawed and she still doesn't know how to fix it. The truth is, writing new books is often the only way we learn how to tell stories better. Going over and over the same old ground gets to be unproductive after a while.

[kaitie]

Originally Posted by BetsyComedy

Hmmmm, Kaitie, I will try to figure out out how to narrow her book into a more specific category. I know the first half is historical, then the next half continues to current time. There is some romance as well. But I don't see it in the history section because that's part of it and fiction too, nor the romance section of books.

I think the best bet would be finding some similar titles and seeing how those are categorized. Sometimes the category might change when it's represented, but it will help to choose agents who are a good fit.

Regarding the agent who took your 2nd book but not the 1st; you think your first has flaws and maybe it does, but aren't they worth fixing once you know how? You worked so long on it. To me it seems like there is more subjectivity involved than simply it's good or bad. Not all agents see things the same and not all are equally qualified.The same applies to movies, food, etc...professional critics don't always agree.

I do plan to go back one day, once I've figured out how to fix the motivation issues and I have some more time. But part of being a writer is also being able to see when something needs to be set aside for awhile. It SUCKS, but it's true. That book isn't my first book, either. My first was written fifteen years ago, and one day I might rewrite that one, and another after that I have no plan to do anything with because it was terrible. I have a couple more that were just for play, honing my skills, and so on.

The thing about writing is that you can always go back to it later. Right now I don't have the skills to fix that book. In a year or two or five I might. I don't mind setting it aside until I can get it right. I also have no intention of letting the one that didn't sell go. I know that book is great and a lot of people would enjoy it. But working on something new doesn't mean I've given up on them, the same as not giving up on it doesn't require me to only work on that one book until it succeeds.

Right or wrong, my mom would rather put all her energy in one book going somewhere before starting another, this one was her passion. Like most writers she's made tons and tons of edits. Some people are writers by trade, others have one great idea and that's it. Maybe it's not ideal, but hopefully doesn't mean the one idea doesn't go anywhere just because there aren't 5 more behind it, which may not even be as good. Though she would be more inclined to do more once this goes somewhere. But it would not be a novel, but say, a cook book, because she's a master chef and baker.

If your mom only wants to write that one book, that's different. Some people only do want to write one. They just want to see that one book published, and if that's the case maybe self-publishing won't be a big deal. But if she wants to build a career, that's a different story.

Honestly, all the reasons you've listed are exactly why she should be working on something new. The longer you work on it and the more effort and time and everything, the harder it is to let go and the harder it is to see it objectively. It's like when you hear people talk about writing as "their baby." I'm pretty sure most of us have been there at some point, but the more work you do, the more you realize that's not the way things are.

I honestly think one of the worst things a writer can do is get so caught up in one book that they can't get do anything else. I get that it's her passion. I've been there, too. I know how heartbreaking it can be to set something aside and work on a new project. But the thing is, the passion is writing. It's in crafting a story, creating characters that you love, etc. It's easy to think that the passion is for one book, one set of characters, one story that you just adore, but the fact is the more you do it, the more you realize that you can adore and love other characters and books, too. You realize that it's the process and the storytelling and the creation that you love, not that book. Does that make sense?

The problem is that the only way to realize that is to work on new projects.

I'm not saying your mom has to give up. Like I said before, the great thing about writing is that you can always go back to an old project.

[kaitie]

Originally Posted by Anne Lyle

It's true that it's a matter of opinion - but the agent is looking for lots of different things in a manuscript. Not just good writing, but a book he can sell to the editors he knows. Say you query a book and the agent loves your writing and thinks you have promise, but you've written something that he knows there is no demand for at the moment (for example, there was a real slump in the horror genre in the 1990s). So he asks if you have anything else, and you send him an even better novel in a hot new genre. No amount of editing is going to make your first book commercially viable - it can't be "fixed" because the problems are with the market not the manuscript.

The same could be true of your mum's book. It may be excellent, but the book trade is going through tough times and agents aren't going to want to take on a manuscript they can't sell to a big house in the next 12 months. For books like that, self-publishing can be a good route because there are readers for it, just not as many as the big publishers are looking for.

Sadly, I know this first-hand.

[Cyia]

Please, please don't think I'm picking on you, but I need to ask you a couple of things:

Originally Posted by BetsyComedy

No my mom does not have an e-reader. Will look into what it is.

Are you saying you don't know what an e-reader is?

Kindle, the means by which people read ebooks uploaded to Amazon, is an ereader. So is Barnes & Noble's nook, Sony's Sony-Reader and Kobo, among others. If you mom wants to try one out, Kindle has a free reader app you can download to your (or her) computer that works just like a Kindle, but without the portability.

Hmmmm, Kaitie, I will try to figure out out how to narrow her book into a more specific category. I know the first half is historical, then the next half continues to current time. There is some romance as well. But I don't see it in the history section because that's part of it and fiction too, nor the romance section of books.

"Mainstream" or "commercial" fiction might fit better than "general" depending on the intended audience.

Right or wrong, my mom would rather put all her energy in one book going somewhere before starting another, this one was her passion. Like most writers she's made tons and tons of edits. Some people are writers by trade, others have one great idea and that's it. Maybe it's not ideal, but hopefully doesn't mean the one idea doesn't go anywhere just because there aren't 5 more behind it, which may not even be as good. Though she would be more inclined to do more once this goes somewhere. But it would not be a novel, but say, a cook book, because she's a master chef and baker.

This could be a problem / roadblock. If the book is awesome, them she should still be able to find an agent, but most agents want career writers. Going from novels to a cookbook isn't a common trajectory, and unless your mom is a well known chef or baker, or has some new twist on classic recipes, it's not likely that a cookbook is going to appeal to most agents. I'm not sure how many agents out there even rep both novels and cookbooks.

As far as Amazon, I recall them making your book more visible costing a lot. I guess I will look into it again...

That's a separate deal from just publishing. Yes, enrolling in a special program can (likely will) cost money, but base publishing is free through Amazon.

Whatever road your mom chooses, I hope it works out well for her.

[CrastersBabies]

Echoing what others are saying, you need to figure out the genre. Where will it go on the bookshelf. If you don't have that, how can an agent sell it? "Well, it has history in it, but then it takes place in modern time. There is romance too."

Kind of wishy-washy. A hard sell. Remember that the query is not just how she will sell herself and land an agent, but also what an agent might use to sell it to a publishing house.

[valeriec80]

The following is only my opinion.

If your mother spent seven years writing one book and has not written anything else since, your mother is not a writer, she is a person who's written a book.

What does your mother want from the publication of this book? If it's to financially support herself, that's unlikely. Very few people can support themselves with only one book. If it's only to have a book published and make a little money, I'd honestly recommend self-publishing. It can be very rewarding, and it ends the cycle, you know? You publish it. It's done.

I do make my living self-publishing fiction, so full disclosure there, but I'm not necessarily rah-rah about it. It's hard work if you want to be a career, and you have to wear a lot of hats. But to just publish one book, it's not necessarily that taxing. If you can learn how to query properly, you can learn how to publish your own book.

Again, only my opinion, and I wish your mother the best of luck.

[MMcDonald64]

Originally Posted by BetsyComedy

Well I asked about the agents that grossed the most because I've heard of agents that don't do anything for you. She is very hard working and motivated, it would be nice to work with an agent who is the same. Sales is the only way I thought of to be able to narrow the search down and work outward. Thank you for the search terms!

She only called because the one agent actually asked her to call in a few months in case he forgot. He had requested her manuscript. That's one out of a few hundred, and it was 6 months into waiting that she called, then once again at the 2 year mark. They did more snail mail than email then. She never called anyone else. But then he stopped working there so that never went anywhere.

It's not that she's not willing to do the work. She did do the work. But it's naturally disappointing when it goes nowhere. I know someone who sent 10 queries for her book and is waiting around for something to happen. That was *not* my mom. It's just difficult to start all over after hundreds of query letters were sent. If someone took an interest, she'd be open to making changes like she was with the editor, she would be open to writing more potentially, she would be open to a lot. She'd have hope. A flower won't grow without a planted seed. She's not looking to make a killing on the book but after everything, yes, she would like to make a little money on it naturally, selling to an actual audience, not family and friends as that is no measure of success nor worth so many years of work.

Her book is general fiction which is so broad, there is a little bit of everything in it.

I do wish she could quit working her day job to focus on this because she is retirement age. I know she can't though and neither can many, but it makes it much harder no doubt as she has much more fatigue due to her health issues. But she's very passionate and she pushes herself. Many of her friends are housewives looking for things to do, it's so very backwards lol.

It seems like if you don't have a huge network to market to, and at least 30K to start, self publishing just isn't the right fit for her. I could be wrong, but that's my impression. I don't want to talk her out of anything, she just doesn't seem to think she has a choice because she tried the traditional route. Whereas I want to see if there is still a shot there.

Since I can't post her query here, which I do understand (ironically I can post my own yet I am not read for that like she is), I will try to get her query to some local writers for an opinion, I'd pay for it, I just have to get some advice since like you guys said, maybe it needs some changes. She did go to book writer groups before and they all said her query was perfect, so there is some sort of disconnect.

I don't get what was meant about receiving a lot of undeliverable mail saying a lot about the writer, and the poster hadn't ever received any? She found out many of those agencies had gone out of business and she was using up to date resources to find them. But I don't think it's any reflection on her...

Shute, maybe I should become an agent, I always killed in sales, no one could ever outsell me no matter what I was selling.

Thank you all for your help!!!

I'm not sure where you got the $30k amount for self-publishing, but I don't know anyone who has spent anywhere close to that. You can spend a lot, but it certainly isn't mandatory and not a guarantee of sales. I uploaded my first book a few years ago and spent nothing. I even made my own cover. It was a crappy cover but six months later, I had networked enough and made some good friends. One day in a brainstorming session, one who had some Photoshop experience came up with the cover for No Good Deed, which you can see in my siggy. That cost me about $12--the price of the stock photo. So networking can really pay off.

I could give you links to several cover artists who sell gorgeous pre-made covers--some as low as $25 for the ebook version. A little more for both ebook and print.

[MMcDonald64]

Originally Posted by BetsyComedy

As far as Amazon, I recall them making your book more visible costing a lot. I guess I will look into it again...

I don't know where you read or heard that information, but it isn't true for self-publishers. It's possible that trade publishers pay for advertising books with Amazon, but I've never heard of the option for self-publishers. There are many blogs like Kindle Nation Daily and Ereader News Today who have advertising spots and some are fairly expensive, but those are options to use if you want. There are also some free options or low cost ones.

I have uploaded 6 books on Amazon and haven't paid a cent to do so. CreateSpace is also free, although I decided to use the expanded distribution option as well as the free option, so that cost me $25 per book.

[James D. Macdonald]

A better Google search to find the agent of your favorite author is "Name of Author" + "represented by"

[Susan Littlefield]

Besty!

Others have given great advice. You sound like a wonderful daughter trying to help mom out. Why don't you send her over here? Even if she doesn't feel like joining right away, she can still peruse the site and get plenty of information.

[BetsyComedy]

Thank you everyone for your responses, thank you Susan for the compliment. Please someone tell me if there is a setting somewhere where I can choose to get instant email notification for posts I've made and private email? But without changing the setting each time? It defaults to no notification each time and I don't always remember to change it, then I miss out on important messages.

Mmcdonald please share with me the links you mentioned for my moms book cover. She paid someone to do it and it didn't look like what she requested at all. Thanks!

Ok so I will admit I am not great at keeping up on technology. So while I am aware of what a kindle is, I didn't recognize the term e-reader. I know now OK so that 30K to market your book on Amazon so it's seen by more people was suppose to be 3K, apparently I had my information wrong 10X over. Sorry about that.

Yes I agree and my mom will also, not a writer by trade, but wrote a book that is hopefully compelling.

I don't know how that housewife wrote such a popular book (one book at that) with her 50 shades of gray, but my mom does not expect that kind of success at all, she is very practical. I think I said above that she'd like more than her friends to buy it though, most people do.

As far as the book sounding wishy washy, I don't really know what to say about that. It's unfortunate that will make it a hard sell as was mentioned. Maybe not every book fits nice and neatly in one specific category? Maybe that's what makes it interesting too though? She does have a little bit of this and that, but it goes together, it flows rather than anything being out of place. It's like seeing a movie that has a little bit of everything, but still has to be put into some category.

My show idea is really easy in comparison as far as categories go, a lot of comedy with a little drama.

Anyway, I asked my mom to join, at least just to read and gain some knowledge for now. I need to ask her if she has done so yet.