Children's Writers: You Don't Hire the Artist

Lauren, there's no reason not to self-publish if that's the route that works for you. Plenty of people are choosing that route and enjoying themselves very much.

It does help to have realistic expectations. Self-publishing means you don't have access to the Big stores like Barnes and Noble or CostCo or Target or Walmart. It means you don't have a marketing team working for you, or an editing/copyrighting team, for that matter. So you have to do all the work yourself. Your success depends on how well you can do it all!

You probably won't have huge sales. You probably won't make enough money to live on. But then, not many authors do. And you will have the satisfaction of seeing your books in print.

MsJudy said:

Lauren, there's no reason not to self-publish if that's the route that works for you. Plenty of people are choosing that route and enjoying themselves very much.

It does help to have realistic expectations. Self-publishing means you don't have access to the Big stores like Barnes and Noble or CostCo or Target or Walmart. It means you don't have a marketing team working for you, or an editing/copyrighting team, for that matter. So you have to do all the work yourself. Your success depends on how well you can do it all!

You probably won't have huge sales. You probably won't make enough money to live on. But then, not many authors do. And you will have the satisfaction of seeing your books in print.

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Yes, I know I won't have access to the big stores. Regarding the editing/copyrighting team, I am a former English teacher and art teacher, so I usually turn out OK manuscripts. However, I'm fortunate to have access to a professor at Brown University and a friend who is an excellent editor. They work the manuscripts over pretty well!

Regarding marketing, I chose to have the publisher push the book and I'll begin my marketing surge soon. I'm exploring options and devising a plan.

My first novel, In a World Apart, is currently being set up as an eBook via Kindle.

There may be a better place to mention this, but I found a excellent book for writers -- Writing Picture Books, by Ann Whitford Paul. Subtitle: A Hands-On Guide from Story Creation to Publication. It's a great book for writers in any genre.

Here's a link: http://annwhitfordpaul.net/Book18.html

Ann Whitford Paul is a delightful person, IMHO. I have some of her PBs--Mañana, Iguana is a class favorite--and I met her at my first Big Sur writing workshop. Very warm and charming and approachable, everything you'd want a PB author to be. It doesn't surprise me to hear her book is good.

And I didn't mean to sound lecturing--what I meant was you shouldn't feel like you're doing something "wrong." That's how your first post sounded--like you were apologizing for wanting to do it your way. As long as your expectations are realistic, I think self or small-press publishing can be very rewarding.

I'm glad I found this thread. OP, your first sentence was exactly me about 2 hours ago . Thanks!

Just wanted to add my two cents to the thread:
I worked in children's publishing for four years at a large house, and I totally agree with the OP. Submitting art with your ms for a picture book fences you in to an image for your book that might not necessarily be the best one.
Part of being an editor in the biz is knowing how to match the words to a style and imagery that will bring out the full potential of your ms. And unlike an author just starting out, the editor has a huge network of illustrators at their disposal. They want your book to sell, so they're going to make it look at good as possible. If you take that power from their hands, it's only going to injure the potential of your work.
Great job posting this, OP.

Do you think this is true with MG books that have illustrations like Spiderwick?

I got a friend to illustrate my book for me, we both went to a art school, not famous artists or anything but I have been sending the pictures embedded into my query lately.

Think its hurting my chances?

It might be. You could try sending out the queries without the pictures, and when you get an agent response, then mention the pictures that are available. In general, MG doesn't have a lot of illustrations. Spiderwick was something of an expensive exception, and both the artist and illustrator were well-established in their fields before the books were published. Investing that kind of money in a debut novel is pretty rare.

If your artist friend has had some professional success, that's different.

Actually I have been querying out recently with the pictures. Of the ten Agents I have contacted with them so far two have given be great feedback of the pictures, saying they enjoyed them. Another was just a mass rejection, and I have not heard from the rest.

But I agree, having a professional background would help, tons.

I'll keep everyone updated to see if it helps or hurts when querying.

An excellent thread and one that definatly needs to be seen by more people, not necessarily just for the content, but definately for the discussion. As a relatively new writer (2005) and haven taken a writing course, I have even seen conflicting points of view from one book to the other in the course.

I fully believe that the economics of our society today and the introduction of ebooks has changed the way things are being done, and more and more as we go through this transition, we will see the rules change.

I think that it eventually will be a matter of choice for the writer to decide which way he/she choses to go.

The only worry I have is that at some point in time there is going to be a movement more to the quick way and then we will lose everything that most traditionalists are fighting for today. Now I'm not saying that we are at this stage yet and that the Vanity presses are letting this happen, I just think at some point in time that the freedom of speach is going to progress beyond the blog.

I guess what i am really trying to say is that I worry about the ebook being put out there without the same scrutiny that we have today at most traditional publishing houses, and I think we should applaud them for rejecting stories that are not up to par (I know that my first attempt was crap and never should have gotten to that stage, but sometimes when you are a newbe...). In the same line of thought, we need more places to send our manuscripts for review and editing prior to getting to that stage (These should be listed as well as publishing houses). I'm not sure if that is part of an agent's job if and when you can secure one i.e. to suggest a good editing company.

I didn't even know about this fact when working on my manuscript, I felt bad when I jumped the gun.

The guy I wanted to do the pictures was a friend of mine.

Another way to...

If you're an artist at heart, illustrating your own children's book would be a rewarding challenge. Hey, it's a refreshing escape from the usual and another way to showcase your prowess.

CALVIN M said:

I guess what i am really trying to say is that I worry about the ebook being put out there without the same scrutiny that we have today at most traditional publishing houses, and I think we should applaud them for rejecting stories that are not up to par (I know that my first attempt was crap and never should have gotten to that stage, but sometimes when you are a newbe...).

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Commercial/trade publishers publish ebooks and have been for more than twenty years—including multimedia interactive children's books.

Please don't conflate ebooks with vanity and self-published books. They are not the same; an ebook is a format, just as much as paperback or hardcover is a format.

Moreover, while there are ebook only publishers, there are also paperback or hardback only publishers.

Children's Book Author

Hi everyone,
I am not sure if I am better off starting a new thread or not with my questions, but I would surely appreciate any advice.

I have written a children's book. I already have a completed manuscript. This is my first time submitting to publishers, and would like some advice on where to begin. I realize that my work might end up in a pile, but I am hoping to make the chances of it being seen better.


I have also researched companies that sell publishing packages such as Amazon Author, LuLu, or Dorrance. Is there a section on the forum that discusses the user experience with these companies?

If I do go the self-publishing route, has anyone had experience with paying someone to do illustrations?

Thank you
Sarah

SarahCat --

Children's books don't do very well in self-pub at this current moment in time. Ebooks are the primary sales vector on self-pub and the vast majority of kids do not have a tablet (and yes, kids love tablets and yes they love playing with them, and yes, everybody's sister's kids just love their tablet, but the fact remains that it is not currently a significant market share. Expect this to absolutely change at some point, but not necessarily today.)

That bring said, your book will almost certainly sell a lot more if you can get it trade published. There's a market for hand-selling print-on-demand children's books, but it is a grim amount of work for low financial return--your best bet there may be to do something with local interest.

In order to stand out on a pile, an agent is your bestest buddy. I would highly recommend seeking an agent if you want sales and large distribution.

If you just want a book with your name on it--and there is nothing wrong with that! It's all about what your goals are!--then you may want to check the Self-Pub forum and the Bewares forum for info on individual printers and packagers, although I suspect that few publishing "packages" are going yo give you much bang for the buck.

Good luck!

SarahCat said:

I have written a children's book. I already have a completed manuscript. This is my first time submitting to publishers, and would like some advice on where to begin. I realize that my work might end up in a pile, but I am hoping to make the chances of it being seen better.

I have also researched companies that sell publishing packages such as Amazon Author, LuLu, or Dorrance. Is there a section on the forum that discusses the user experience with these companies?

If I do go the self-publishing route, has anyone had experience with paying someone to do illustrations?

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Go the agent/publisher route first, as that's where it's at for picture books. But do research them first (background and bewares is a useful forum on this site). You shouldn't be paying to be published at any point (when going down the trade route). You want to avoid vanity presses like Publish America.

As for self-publishing, a lot of the general advice you'll find in the self-publishing forum will apply to any sort of book. You need to make a dividing line between services that print the book or distribute the ebook, and services that claim to do everything (editing, formatting, cover design) for a fee. The former will be necessary. The latter are not a good idea, as you get poor work for an inflated price. You'd do better to hire people individually for the tasks you need done.

As RedWombat said, the market for self-published picture books is slim. I think it'd be a better bet if you're an author/illustrator, as the illustrations would be the biggest cost. So even if sales were slow, you wouldn't have lost such a huge amount of money.

(Amazon has a new system for children's illustrated ebooks, though it's so new I've not heard much about how well it works: https://kdp.amazon.com/kids )

I hesitated to post on a thread that started so long ago in 2006, but then thought, heck, it was still active near the end of 2014, so why not

First of all, I love that Jenna started it (for over 15 years I've been explaining this to writers who contact me.... NO, you don't need me to Illustrate your manuscript if you want a publisher) and agree with EVERYTHING she said and with the other knowledgable posters who've agreed with her!

Early on there was an Illustrator (blue13) who was totally wrong. No, it's not just individual opinions so that no one is right or wrong, this is the way Publishing works and her advice was wrong!

>If you're a professional artist yourself and want to illustrate your own books, sure, submit it as a complete package<

Yes, this is the exception (as Jenna stated) and we call them "Authorstrators" You may, in this case, send a dummied version of your book, rough sketched with MAYBE one or two finished Illustrations. You don't want to send the whole thing finished, because as always, there will be Editing of the manuscript, perhaps whole revisions, and the Art Director will be working with you on the Illustration.

A lot of writers seem to worry about losing that "control" over the art, over who the Art Director and Editor will choose and what style the artist will use. Writers must keep in mind that they are WRITERS. This doesn't always mean they are also keen judges of good or appropriate art, even for their own book. IF you are going to work with a trade publisher, you have to believe they are also working in YOUR books interest. Everyone wants it to win, they aren't the enemy and they know what they are doing, they do it all the time

Last want to reiterate what Ellen said a number of posts back. Yes, often a well known Illustrator is paired with a new Author and visa versa. One off the top of my head example of success from this kind of match.... "the Day the Crayon's Quit"

I have a couple children's books sitting around that I wrote WAAAAY back in 2010-'11, and I've been putting off subbing them until I found an artist. Apparently I was wrong.

Can I ask here - how do you query PB? I've only queried long novels before, but I have several PB stories that are complete and I, like others, thought they were dead in the water because I can't draw at all... So glad to have found this thread! But back to my point - the stories are board books probably, very very short, so is the query just a sentence or two? There's barely enough story for a whole paragraph, I fear.

What if the art is good and fits? I think it's a waste to not even have a look at the submitted art. I am currently illustrating a dude's book. He knows I'm great, I know I'm great, his agent approves. I was picked by the author, not the agent, mind you. What a waste had they not handled it this way.

In addition, what if the author doesn't like the illustrator? Personally, I wouldn't want my hard work and my baby published on the condition that it be - in my, the creator's, opinion - defiled by ugly-as-fook art. Which, to boot, may even misrepresent characters. Suddenly they might be skinny, have stupid dot-eyes, or look like a recluse WoW-player.

thursdaymcgee said:

Can I ask here - how do you query PB? I've only queried long novels before, but I have several PB stories that are complete and I, like others, thought they were dead in the water because I can't draw at all... So glad to have found this thread! But back to my point - the stories are board books probably, very very short, so is the query just a sentence or two? There's barely enough story for a whole paragraph, I fear.

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mcgee, from what I know of PBs, you include the entire text of the book in the query.

heza said:

mcgee, from what I know of PBs, you include the entire text of the book in the query.

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Thanks for this! I've done very little research on querying PB since I've been focusing on my YA novel, but I'll buckle down and start googling... =)

Ravioli said:

What if the art is good and fits? I think it's a waste to not even have a look at the submitted art. I am currently illustrating a dude's book. He knows I'm great, I know I'm great, his agent approves. I was picked by the author, not the agent, mind you. What a waste had they not handled it this way.

In addition, what if the author doesn't like the illustrator? Personally, I wouldn't want my hard work and my baby published on the condition that it be - in my, the creator's, opinion - defiled by ugly-as-fook art. Which, to boot, may even misrepresent characters. Suddenly they might be skinny, have stupid dot-eyes, or look like a recluse WoW-player.

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But see...here's the thing: the finished book isn't about the author. Not his/her wants or needs or personal artistic bent. It's about the READER. Specificially, about little kids, who have very specific needs as far as visual images. Illustrators who work in picture books for major publishers have more fans than the authors themselves. Kids recognize the style of an artist and will buy the book because they recognize the imagery on the store shelf. Alexandra Day, artist of the "Good Dog, Carl" series of books is a good example. Her artistic style is similar in other books (such as Teddy Bear Picnic, where she is only the illustrator--rather than both artist and author) and kids recognize the images as familiar and will grab the books regardless of the author's name.

Personally, I wouldn't want my hard work and my baby published on the condition that it be - in my, the creator's, opinion - defiled by ugly-as-fook art. Which, to boot, may even misrepresent characters. Suddenly they might be skinny, have stupid dot-eyes, or look like a recluse WoW-player.

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That's what I meant by many new writers not feeling they want to loose "control" but if they want to be commercially published, they must trust the Publisher they will be working with to do the right thing for the book, not them, the book. The manuscript takes on a life of it's own once passed to an Illustrator chosen by the publisher. The Illustrator becomes the second Author, telling their story IN the story. There are even some fairly drastic tales of the Illustrator making the characters humans or making them animals, each being the opposite of what the writers envisioned as they worked on their manuscripts and all of these decisions by the artist result in a better book then the writer had ever hoped for.
One of these stories is....

The editor of Mary Ann Hoberman’s THE SEVEN SILLY EATERS thought the characters should be animals, like crocodiles. Marla Frazee, the illustrator, thought they should be people, and she was right. She even made the mother a cello player, which was not in the text, but it added a delightful layer to the mother’s personality. The options were wide open—the author never described the characters’ appearance.

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If the Writer just has to keep control and feels they know more then anyone else about what is best for their book, that is when they should self publish.

Cathy C said:

But see...here's the thing: the finished book isn't about the author. Not his/her wants or needs or personal artistic bent. It's about the READER. Specificially, about little kids, who have very specific needs as far as visual images. Illustrators who work in picture books for major publishers have more fans than the authors themselves. Kids recognize the style of an artist and will buy the book because they recognize the imagery on the store shelf. Alexandra Day, artist of the "Good Dog, Carl" series of books is a good example. Her artistic style is similar in other books (such as Teddy Bear Picnic, where she is only the illustrator--rather than both artist and author) and kids recognize the images as familiar and will grab the books regardless of the author's name.

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If it weren't for the author, those kids wouldn't have anything to look at and the publishers wouldn't have anything to get rich off. The author should be respected at least as far as CONSIDERING a suggestion - why not? And again, if the book's/readers' needs are met, I don't see the problem with the author picking the illustrator and the publisher at least considering it.
And how is an illustrator ever gonna get recognized if never given a chance because god forbid, the author suggested him? And a reader will recognize an author-suggested illustrator as well as a publisher's pick once the book is published. You can't become known without someone opening the door for you. The publisher does NOT always know better, because no one EVER has seen all the options, and there is no downside to having a broader look around - no matter who suggests it. That publisher might just find a new gem of an illustrator.

ctripp said:

That's what I meant by many new writers not feeling they want to loose "control" but if they want to be commercially published, they must trust the Publisher they will be working with to do the right thing for the book, not them, the book. The manuscript takes on a life of it's own once passed to an Illustrator chosen by the publisher. The Illustrator becomes the second Author, telling their story IN the story. There are even some fairly drastic tales of the Illustrator making the characters humans or making them animals, each being the opposite of what the writers envisioned as they worked on their manuscripts and all of these decisions by the artist result in a better book then the writer had ever hoped for.
One of these stories is....

If the Writer just has to keep control and feels they know more then anyone else about what is best for their book, that is when they should self publish.

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What if the author's chosen illustrator could be the right thing for the book? Why not even consider that?
I have put down so many illustrated books because the pictures were crap. I mean, the rabbits in the Animals of Farthing Wood comics published in Germany, were yellow and the foxes had ugly paws with only 2 toes. Nothing like the beautiful, credible design in the original animation. Sometimes animals standing next to each other, wore each others' colors. Such a great call to leave it to the publisher /sarcasm
I threw Disney comics and books in the trash because the lions were colored incorrectly, sloppily, by illustrators who know their worth and take it for granted. Suddenly Nala was yellow. Nuka was beige. Suddenly, there was a leg missing. Great call!

And honestly, changing the species of characters just goes too far. How about taking all the sex out of 50 Shades, too. So what if the book did great, they never gave the original option a chance to prove itself, so that call says nothing.

If I hadn't signed a confidentiality agreement as to image publishing in the book I illustrated for a client, I'd post here what a criminal loss to children's bookshelves it would be to turn my shit down.