That would only make sense given sufficient marketing to create hype.
And even then I think it's an ineffective strategy.
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That would only make sense given sufficient marketing to create hype.
And even then I think it's an ineffective strategy.
The thing is, we don't know Katniss's race, but we do know she doesn't look like her sister or mother. Her blonde, white sister and mother. Katniss looks like her father, who isn't described, but it's mentioned that people think her mother married down. That could be a reference to the district change she made, or a reference to his appearance. Either way, we know she wasn't fair complexioned or light haired. She describes herself in terms of Gayle, who is darker, and says they match, IIRC.
I say joke, cause I'm not sure if I'll do anything besides ebooks. (Kindle copies can't exactly be scarce can they?) And there are some genres that are so obscure, one really has to be a fan to have any familiarity with it.
Interesting, I guess I'll reread Hunger Games again.
Interesting, I guess I'll reread Hunger Games again.
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Yes, agreed. I'm happy to read/watch protags that don't look like me, but the masses seem to be slightly different. Having said that, there are a lot of actors that are something other than white that have a strong following and many watch there movies because of them not inspite of them.
I'm guilty of this. I pictured Rue looking like the actress that played Lucy Pevinsie, so when I saw the previews for HG I had to go back and read Rue's parts again to make sure they hadn't gotten it wrong. it was shocking to see how I simply pictured her as I wanted to. It reminds me of the scene in A TIME TO KILL when Mathew McConnaghey describes all of the evil atrocities committed against the little black girl to the jury at the end and you're just horrified. Then he tells the jury, "Now, picture that little girl as white." And you're just shocked that having said that it actually makes it more horrible to you and then you're disgusted with yourself for subconciously downgrading the crimes because the little girl doesn't look like you. Very powerful and life-altering scene for me.
I realize this. I wasn't saying it was a point-for-point demographic comparision, just saying it's a contributing factor. One could also argue socio-econimic differences in the cultures based on race and that there are more likely a larger number of wealthy white readers compared to poorer minority who don't or don't have the resources to read as much. It's all just part of the mix.
You are making assumptions. You don't know how I are or anyone else can perceive colorblindness. Just because a person doesn't use race as a qualifying characteristic doesn't mean they are trying to make you more like them. My son (white, five-years-old) was playing with a little boy at a playscape the other day. When he was describing his day later, he didn't talk about the boys hair color, skin color (african american) or what he wore. He defined him as the little boy he said this to or did that with. He was being color blind and focusing on the important distinquishing things of his day and that doesn't make him racist because he saw his friend as a friend and not a black friend.
I never implied intent. I said what the effect is.
The logical fallacy of colorblindness is the assumption that ignoring the problem and pretending not to see it means it will go away.
It ignores differences and inequalities that do exist.
These oft-toted-out anecdotes are cute but meaningless.
We're not toddlers and the world is not a playscape.
We have inherited the burdens of history and are inculcated with culture. That is reality. We can't fix these issues by pretending they don't exist. Not acknowledging my ethnicity is just another way to white-wash me.
I'm not accusing you of intending any of that.
I'm saying that is what the effect is.
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So I'm confused, are we talking about Diversity in terms of genre trending. Or in terms of how we should treat people? I don't think anyone would argue everyone should be treated equally.
My issue is more to do with making every story that exists diverse, even if it doesn't fit within the stories context. (Let's say rural nineteenth century Kentucky.) With that said, anything written post 1970's has no reason not to be diverse just by the fact that we live in a way bigger world now.
My issue is more to do with making every story that exists diverse, even if it doesn't fit within the stories context. (Let's say rural nineteenth century Kentucky.) With that said, anything written post 1970's has no reason not to be diverse just by the fact that we live in a way bigger world now.
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I don't think it's so much a problem of individual books as much as the diversity of books overall.
Also, I don't just want more PoC characters, but more PoC authors.
I wasn't saying we should ignore differences. People are beautiful. Differences are beautiful. We can admire a person's beauty with out defining them in a category for it. The same can be said of their intellect, beliefs, customs. Anything can be admired in a person and appreciated, but that doesn't mean we have to categorize or define them by it. Or their failings for that matter. I don't see how accepting people as they are and appreciating their differences with out categorizing them is racism. Subtle or not.
They are not meaningless. Yes, we have history and culture and differences galore and we have to overcome a great deal to obtain any kind of equality for all people. Even the oppressor is shackled by his beliefs. But seeing how two people interact when they haven't been corrupted by the prejudices of our society gives me hope that there is a better future ahead. People aren't born prejudice, subtly or not, they learn it from their parents and peers. If every generation has fewer and fewer people that grow up prejudice then I see that as progress. Maybe it's not fast enough, but some times we have to deal with what we've got. Once again I'm not saying we should ignore differences or ignore the problem, but I don't see how not letting those differences affect how we interact with people is a bad thing.
Yes. Context matters. I just think it would be great to have diverse characters (race/religion/sexual orientation) and not have that be the issue of the story. Not that I have a problem with issue-based stories. They're great too, but I'd like a good story that is good regardless of those defining factors.
Agree with needing more authors of diversity, but not just for the sake of diversity. Having new and fresh perspectives from all walks of life can only further our intelligence and enlightenment.
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I think this is a huge part of the problem.
I know there are (though I can't name any on the top of my head) books where character's races were wrong on covers. If race is not constantly front and center in a book it's very often ignored by readers/publicists/casting directors/etc.
In The Hunger Games race isn't really that important -- the main conflict is between the haves and the have-nots, and the have-nots, as far as we can tell, are racially diverse. However, even despite the book saying that the character Rue has dark skin and her district being an obvious reference to slavery on plantations, people still imagined her as white. Unless the book has race front-and-center like The Absolutely True Diary of a Part Time Indian and the like it seems like readers/publicists/casting directors will do whatever they want, if the book gets published in the first place.
It's all very depressing and makes a character like a black Harry Potter seem impossible despite our hopes and efforts.
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My screenwriter friend tells me that unless you very actively list a character's ethnicity in the screenplay (i.e. MARLA is an Asian woman), they're going to be cast as white in the actual movie. Even if you do state the ethnicity, half the time it gets changed to white anyway.
This might be true right now, but I think you'll be surprised how quickly it'll change. I work in an entertainment industry with teens as a big consumer (gaming), and there's some very interesting internal surveys that find that while players 18+ prefer having characters of the same ethnicity, the younger you get, the more important they consider having diversity and wide representation. Today's adults might prefer non-POC protagonists, but today's tweens are not only fine with it, it's actually an increasingly powerful selling point (the same goes for characters with a range of sexual orientations). I think we're going to see a sea-change in next 5-7 years, where 'offering a diverse range of representation' actually becomes mandatory for success for any works that skew young.
Diversity should just be a common thing, not be a genre. Who calls a book YA Diverse. Diverse is an aspect of being. Not a shelf label. This is also why I don't get Dystopia as a genre.
On the other hand with Cyberpunk, one doesn't have to ask how something is Cyberpunk. It meets upon a very specific definition. With diverse one has to ask, "OK how is it diverse?" or "How is it dystopic?"
On the other hand with Cyberpunk, one doesn't have to ask how something is Cyberpunk. It meets upon a very specific definition. With diverse one has to ask, "OK how is it diverse?" or "How is it dystopic?"
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I thought we wanted diverse because people want characters who look like them.
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Don't underestimate the power of the self-published novel to spark change, either. Super-hits are rare, but if you look at the novels being self-published, many of them have diverse casts, or POC main characters because the restrictions are taken off the author.
At some point, you're going to see mega-hits come with "non-standard" MC's, by the industry's way of thinking. Once they do, even if they're picked up by a mainstream publisher, they won't change the characteristics for fear of alienating the established audience.
Mega-hits breed copy-cats. Then copy-cats breed saturation. Equilibrium will be reached, in a very broad manner of speaking.
At some point, you're going to see mega-hits come with "non-standard" MC's, by the industry's way of thinking. Once they do, even if they're picked up by a mainstream publisher, they won't change the characteristics for fear of alienating the established audience.
Mega-hits breed copy-cats. Then copy-cats breed saturation. Equilibrium will be reached, in a very broad manner of speaking.
That would be refreshing, since non-standard is anything where the main girl isn't in a romantic relationship, she's a lesbian, is part whatever, and likes computers.
Diversity to me sounds more like a Target Audience, rather than a genre. Similar to how there is YA or New Adult.
Diversity to me sounds more like a Target Audience, rather than a genre. Similar to how there is YA or New Adult.
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This. It's imperative this is understood. We do not want white writers just writing POC characters. We want to make room for those voices. I shudder at some of this diversity talk because it makes everyone feel like they can just pick skin color like a shirt and throw it in there. I'm like....gaahhhhhhh no! Making money off minorities is basically perpetuating an entire thing. No. ETA: I'm clarifying this to be-- white people making money (eg, taking, stealing, using for profit) from minorities is perpetuating in a new way a very old thing. I do not think this means white people should never write a POC, I think it means be very careful about what you do write. It's not always wrong, but it will always be in question whether you were the right person to tell that story.
Also color-blindness/downplaying color is another NO. It means something to black in America. It means something to be Native in America. When you tell someone "we are all the same, skin is just color, blah blah blah" it's dismissive and ignorant. No it's not. Skin color and racial identity come with a whole history attached. Being black is not at all like being a white person who is super tan. Same for every other ethnicity.
I say all this, but I'm a white writer who somehow wrote a Latina MC. I'd made the character in high school and the Latina got attached as part of my own struggle to identify myself. None of the white boys I knew liked me, they liked my very thin friends. All the Puerto-Rican guys in my high school were very appreciative however and ten years later when I picked up the book I just kept that as part of her identity. By that point it wasn't at all about my body issues as a fifteen-year-old, it was about creating a whole character and adding dimension to the plot (which is not focused on race, but on feeling like an outsider). I tried to be very clear that this was not an "exotic white person". But we'll see how editors feel about alllll that. I don't know. I have major angst over it, but I think I did okay.
I'm also more sensitive to things now because my husband is, in part, NA (and not in the my grandmother was a Cherokee princess way). I've heard the stories. I've experienced it somewhat now through our children. It's just....meh.
I want more Native books that are not wise-spiritual-native. I want my kids to have books that include their identity without making them this fantasy item or allaboutmyrace. I want LOTS OF BOOKS that capture what it is. I can't write it---but someone who is Native can. That's what we need.
Although if you are writing fantasy or dysotopian or something else where you can sever the "history" of being a minority, please please please, make them POC. If you are making it all up anyways, please stop making your dark people evil. Please.
...I guess I'm a little ranty here aren't I? Sorry.
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Well, that's the interesting thing about it. In a big picture sense, that's what having a diverse range of characters and voices accomplishes. In the small picture sense, for the upcoming generation of tween players, diversity in and of itself is something they look for in a product, at least according to what I've learned. I suspect the same applies to readers.
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Because refusing to see race is denying that those categories do still have an impact today.
The fallacy of colorblindness is racism 101:
I'm not Racist, I'm Colorblind!
Colorblindness and the Privilege of Not Seeing Race
"I Don't Care If You Are Black, White, Blue, or Green"
Please understand that I'm not trying to attack you, but it's important to understand this.
If none of this is what you mean, then it would be best to avoid the language of colorblindness in the future.
Because taking our differences into account when we interact with people is also part of being respectful.
The expectation that everyone else wants to be treated just like you and therefore you can treat everyone identically is a privilege of coming from the dominant culture.
Depends what you mean by "by the issue." Not every story with a PoC lead has to be about tackling racism. Not every story with a gay main character should be about tackling homophobia and coming out. Yes, absolutely.
But this also sounds dangerously like "well, this story would be great if only these characters didn't act so ethnic and if only these gay characters didn't act so gay".
Again, this may not be what you mean, but please understand that that's inevitably how I read it, because when other people talk about colorblindness and use this kind of language, this is almost always what they mean.
I'm all for more diverse authors for the sake of diversity. I don't see how that can be a bad thing.
Yes, exactly.
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If you mean like black-and-gray morality, no, that's fine.
Just don't make your dark-skinned people orcs in disguise.
Avoid Unfortunate Implications, y'know?
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I guess?
I mean the thing is that I only write things written in the "real world" incredibly rarely so I can really do whatever I want with concerns for skin color. So in one WIP the characters may look "diverse" but what seem to be the main dividing lines of society are social class and religion and race doesn't figure in, or if it does, not nearly as much as those two. And I don't know if this is "okay" at all because it does make skin color and hair texture and other features purely cosmetic.
The other WIP I am planning I have not decided much of anything yet, just that the main character kills a lot of people one by one in an attempt to destroy an unfair power structure. I'm at a point where I can do anything because nothing is written yet, so I don't know what to do.
If that's what happened historically in that world, I don't see why it wouldn't be okay.
No one's saying you can't have a dark guy be a villain.
It's only when all the dark guys are evil and it starts to seem like they're evil because they're dark, y'know?
The issue that usually arises with this one is the world doesn't have racism, but the author lives in one that does. So this anti-racist other place just happens to have mostly white characters in the important roles, and it just happens that brown people get to be villains.
In a world divided by class, for example, you'd expect an even mix of races between the classes. You wouldn't expect the poor inner-city areas to be dominated by a certain race. Or for the rich and powerful to mostly be one race. But as you live in a world where this is the case, it's easy to fall back on that in your fictional world.
No racism would also impact things like cultural beauty standards. The prevalence of hair straightening is due to straight European hair being set as the beauty standard. It means in certain areas, like business, hair that isn't straight is expected to be straightened or it's not deemed professional. In your class-based world, this'd be irrelevant as long as the hair was well-maintained.
Basically, it's about thinking through what removing racism would really do. And acknowledging that neither you or your readers live in that world.