What should you remember when writing YA?

Fiedb, my experience with YA is limited but it sounds like your story is a little above the age range, what with a 22 year old protag. I could be wrong but that's just my opinion.

Gus, just how big is this bomb shelter? You say this is an old military bomb shelter, meaning it's not read for use. Is this thing big enough to house 30 people and feed and supply them for 5 years without emerging? Fresh water, air, all that fun stuff? What about waste removal? Just right off the bat I see some pretty big issues and holes with that but it could all rightly be worked out in the writing. It just has to be believable. And an easy way to make 5 years in a bomb shelter interesting is to start the story when they emerge.

Yeah, I should have listed more detail. The bomb shelter was the nations largest, designed in the 60s to house the entire congress and their families, to include a nursery and sick bay. It was maintained as more of a museum piece, but supplies were kept as it was still considered part of the military base it was on. More as a piece of history though than its intended purpose. It is located within a vast cavern in a mountain with ventilation shafts which emerge close to the peak, typically well above any fallout potential. There is also a solar array on the peak which provides adequate power. It actually will play a large role after the emergence from the shelter. The shelter is manufactured into the mountain, but it is dated, as is the equipment within it. The walls themselves deep within the structure are soft and will actually lead into the cavern itself where there is an underground water supply. Waste will be burned within an incinerator exhausting from the top of the mountain. Liquid waste, that is a challenge. I will have to be creative.

I am thinking you are right though, perhaps the story should spend little time in the shelter itself, like maybe a chapter per year, but the meat of the story happen when they emerge. I think I like that suggestion.

Feidb:
many people keep telling me it should be YA.

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Why do they think it should be YA? You can be pretty edgy in the YA market, but the themes you've set out in your post, seem to be to be more suited to the adult market than to the YA market.

Until you've finished the manuscript, it's difficult to judge one way or another what market it's best suited for, but from what you describe, it does seem to me to be more adult.

MM

I can actually see Feidb's work fitting into a YA market if s/he dropped the age a little.

There's nothing in there that sounds like a teen wouldn't handle it, and I love the father/daughter twist.

It all depends on how it's written, stories that show growth in a 'coming of age' way tend to do better in YA. On the other hand, many fantasy books could easily be shelved in both sections so it's ultimately down to where the publisher thinks it will have the best chances of high sales. *shrug*

All,

Thanks for the feedback. I personally don't think it's young adult. However, my writer's group is trying to help me stretch to make something fit somewhere. With my track record of rejections, it's a nice thought.

I'm reading Daniel X by James Patterson right now, and there is no way my story is YA! The language and everything is too different, too adult. We have another member who writes YA and though our stories have similarities, his protagonist is 15 or 16.

My protagonist pretty much has to be 22 or so, just from all the stuff she's done. It would not make sense for a 15 year old to have that kind of experience.

So, I guess YA is out. I'll stick with just plain fantasy (or some sub-genre) and if it appeals to younger readers, so be it.

Thanks again for all the great input.

Feidb

GusGallows said:

Yeah, I should have listed more detail. The bomb shelter was the nations largest, designed in the 60s to house the entire congress and their families, to include a nursery and sick bay. It was maintained as more of a museum piece, but supplies were kept as it was still considered part of the military base it was on. More as a piece of history though than its intended purpose. It is located within a vast cavern in a mountain with ventilation shafts which emerge close to the peak, typically well above any fallout potential. There is also a solar array on the peak which provides adequate power. It actually will play a large role after the emergence from the shelter. The shelter is manufactured into the mountain, but it is dated, as is the equipment within it. The walls themselves deep within the structure are soft and will actually lead into the cavern itself where there is an underground water supply. Waste will be burned within an incinerator exhausting from the top of the mountain. Liquid waste, that is a challenge. I will have to be creative.

I am thinking you are right though, perhaps the story should spend little time in the shelter itself, like maybe a chapter per year, but the meat of the story happen when they emerge. I think I like that suggestion.

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You might want to research the Greenbrier Resort in West Virginia. There's an underground bunker there that was the "real" place you refer to for Congress, Pres, cabinet, etc. (not sure about the families). Since the location of this shelter was exposed the public can now tour it.

Sounds like a great premise! Hope to read it some day.

Your main character has to be a teen or in their early twenties, no matter what. I'm 19 and honestly have no problem reading books with characters younger than me...I just want a good story.

Remember that we can handle very complex plot lines. Add twists and turns otherwise we probably won't keep turning the page.

We HATE being preached at. HATE! IT! SO! MUCH! Please don't include it, as we get too much from our parents.

Remember that we are natural pessimists. Everyone's out to get us, no one listens to us, nothing goes our way...these are things we relate to.

Your best bet would be to talk to some YAs that you know. You might not be able to get them talking, but don't take it personally. This is how we are. Sometimes our actions speak louder than words, but in order to write for us, you have to understand us and the best way to do that is to get to know us. Ask us what we like, what we don't, what we read, to describe our style, why we hate our parents, siblings, and school, about our best friend(s), and the like. Talk to us like we're regular joes (which we are). If you can talk to us like that and write the same way, you should have no problem.

Good luck and happy writing!

Also, remember that many adults have been reading popular YA novels, most notably with the Harry Potter series. Avoiding the dumb down factor would play a huge part in whether or not adults would find interest in your story as well.

No one likes to be preached to.

Thanks to you all for the great inputs. I've pretty much decided to just market it as fantasy and let the agent and publisher worry about where it fits. And, there is absolutely NO preaching! There is a moral dilemma for the character, but it is her thoughts and actions, and not me expounding on the point forever, telling everyone to do the right thing. I don't like preaching either.

Feidb

What about more complex issues, like alcoholic fathers, deaths of siblings, child abuse? Are these appropriate as part of a YA story, if they're happening to the protagonist?

Chrisla said:

What about more complex issues, like alcoholic fathers, deaths of siblings, child abuse? Are these appropriate as part of a YA story, if they're happening to the protagonist?

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YES.

Shady's Edgy thread probably has the answers you want. Seek within, says guru cat.:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71220

I write YA. I also have operated book stores for 20+ years.

Advice differs, depending on the target audience.
Y/A girls 10 - 15 buy the current trend in TV EG: Mary Kate and Ashley, but they aren't buying as much as before (we need a new trendy series)
YA older girls 16-18 are into Gossip Girls, Dear Diary, Paranormal Romance (Stephany Meyers).
YA boys - 10-15 Starting to read GooseBumps, Captain Underpants
YA boys - 16 and older will try Science Fiction/Fantasy, Game related (D&D, World of Warcraft)

In general, YA boys are not reading as much, tend to be accompanied by an adult, and generally want the thinnest book on the shelf. Pitiful, but true.

With my own boys, when having them read outloud with me (10 and 17 when he was younger), I find them reading larger or uncommon words, they pretend to understand. When I quiz them on "what did that mean?", I get a blank stare. They jump over/ignore complex words, and do not have the capability/will to guess the meaning from the context. Net result, they miss a lot when the uncommon, large words actually carry critical story line info. Keep it simple, not dumb, just use common everyday vocabulary.

Pace. Excepting Harry Potter, pace is critical. In adult fiction, the author uses longer descriptive paragraphs to pace the story. I have found the kids want a fast pace and usually break at the end of a chapter, no matter what.

And I whole hearted agree with the other great posts, don't preach, don't talk down, etc. Remember, the novel should be fun to read, easy to visualize, and have characters that relate to the reader. A pet is always a hit, and can make a great minor character.

Momento Mori said:

1. Read some YA books in the genre you're interested in firstly to see how they've done it.

2. Remember that teenage readers need to be interested in the protagonist. Many (but not all) YA writers make their MC a teenager themselves. Bear in mind that teens and MG readers read 'up' (i.e. books that are older than their age group).

3. If lessons are going to be learned by your MC, don't preach them. No one likes to be told drugs/sex/alcohol/whatever is bad, mmkay. Show consequences, but don't preach consequences.

4. Don't talk down to your audience, i.e. don't assume that you have to dumb down your language or use modern teen slang (it dates anyway).

MM

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Though I don't particluarly like the book, Go Ask Alice is a pretty good example of all of these suggestions.

I'm busy with a YA story with kids at a private school who are being severely bullied by the sporty types. I'm adding a scene based on a school killing that happened recently where the bullied kid went on to murder one of his peers with a Japanese sword (we don't have guns here in SA like they do in the states).

I've had a person of Critters Workshop point out that people would get upset if I included the fact that one of the characters considers herself Wiccan, and regularly does Tarot readings, stating taht parents don't want their kids "reading about that kind of stuff".

Also, there was a bit of moaning about the swearing, but I remember all too well what I did when i was a teen. I feel that I have every right to be stubborn about putting in the swearing (it's not excessive but it's how I hear kids talk, in any case).

Also, what about having a character who is older who does play a pivotal role (okay, he's a vampire who looks like he's younger)? The same person complaining about the Tarot, also complained about writing in an "adult" character, although the story primarily deals with how the teens interact with him.

I don't know how I missed this thread before? (being stickied and whatnot)

I just wanted to add something general about the "dumbing down" debate... um, I always write as if young adult readers are SMARTER than adult readers. Because they are. They are much more critical, have a finely-tuned bullshit detecting sense, and don't really have the time or patience for stuff that bores them. I don't really understand the "this might be too advanced for them" attitude. You should be asking "am I writing this sharp and quick enough to satisfy this very scary-smart readership?" They will know if you don't respect their abilities... oh, yes. They will know.


Teen readers do have varying levels of experience/inexperience, emotional maturity/immaturity, vocab familiarity or whatever, so I guess you can try to choose what level you're aiming for with your story? But definitely try to keep the attitude that you are writing for a shrewd bunch, and really, isn't it a lot more fun to write for a shrewd reader?

It is so fun. I heart YA.

(and onyxdrake? Although it's always wise to listen to what someone has to say, my gut says this critter doesn't really have a whole lot of experience in knowing what kids want to read or the YA market... trust your gut, too, and keep posting around the YA forum!)

Onyxdrake, I'm with sharpierae. I'm still learning in terms of what's acceptable and what isn't for YA but that critter seems leaps and bounds behind me in that sense. It's been mentioned over and over in this thread but it bares repeating--check out Shady's Edgy YA Thread and you'll get an idea of what's being published in the YA field.

It sounds like what that person doesn't want their kids reading and the thing is, broader and it looks like that critter is thinking in terms of children, not YA. Just take a visit to your local bookstore, wander into the YA section and see what's on the shelves. Last I looked there were a slew of vampire romances (thanks, Meyer), a bunch of stuff on witches, I just picked up a book called ghostgirl about a dead girl trying to be popular--and that's just in the fantasy realm.

Your best bet is to research and actually see what's being published instead of listening to people that, quite obviously, need to open their eyes just a bit more.

When I write for the kids I get feed back like, I liked that part but I don't like this. Helpfull but they can't tell me why the like it. You have go with you main reader, the person in your head your writing for, and write for him. My main reader just happens to like most of what I like. There are kids in the stories they can relate to that have to make hard choices.

Oh, my son, who is very smart, likes details. Now I have to go read some of his book to find out what he means by details. He also like really complecated games like D&D which have lots of details.

He also likes those 2nd person books were you have to make choices.

And yeah, he likes it when they kiss and the universe explodes. One of his favorite movies is "The Fifth Element". The world is actually saved when they kiss but there's still a big bang.

misslissy said:

I don't have anything else to add, but I can't emphasize this point enough. That's the biggest mistake bad YA writers make. Nothing puts me off more than feeling like I'm being treated like I'm stupid.

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I'm glad you said this. In my YA, my characters are mature, which, when I was a teen, I worked at a runaway shelter supervising kids who were my age and sometimes older. When I worked at a group home, then a psych facility, I realized that many teens are very mature.

Other cultures don't make their offspring wait so long to be acknowledged as mature. They are looking at life and teaching them the hard lessons. It used to be the same in this country, but we're taking longer and longer to let them out of the nest and dealing with more and more incest, drug abuse, and estrangement.

If they can read Beowulf and whatnot, why should they be 'written' down to? I'll never forget when a girl at a grouphome came out to greet me and was shocked to see my sporty car. "You bought a status car?" she asked, disappointed. I was like, "no." I'd never even heard the term. But like I said, I was young, working with mature teens. I think I was twenty-one. That's just my flash memory of a girl I knew to be very mature.

That's part of the reason I know better than to talk down to them, not to mention the fact that I thought I was grown when I was fifteen. People used to be shocked when I'd tell them my age, because they thought I was older. In fact, it's kind of funny, but when my kids were teens, I would be in my bedroom blasting Prince and they would be in the living room working on artistic projects while listening to classical. So I think I have a beneficial perspective from which to write YA.

I'm going to post this to my blog.

What I find as a useful reality check when figuring out teens is to listen to their conversations when I'm sitting on the train en route to work in the mornings and evenings. I'm a bit disappointed that most of the conversations of late have been about whose phones are more expensive, how stuffed they got on the weekend and whose parties they're going to go to... And who's bunking college again. *sigh*

BUT BUT BUT those are important things!

Well, to a certain kind of person anyway.

On YA POV and related questions

Hey guys. I had a kind of writerly question about YA. In general, it seems to me (flipping through a selection of YA novels) that for the most part, YA novels are written from a limited point of view. I mean that in the technical sense i.e. the entire story is told from the MC POV and nothing outside of his or her direct experience is in the story. As well, though most seems to be written in third person, I've seen quite a lot of first person (e.g. the Twilight books) and although writers are often warned to avoid first person, obviously in the case of Twilight it worked extremely well.

So my question is this: how popular (among YA readers) do you think limited POV is? Or do YA readers also enjoy an omniscient POV? The reason I'm asking is because so far, I've written my novel from the limited POV of my MFC (in third person). As I get further into the "meat" of the story I'm wondering if it might make the story more interesting and give it more depth if I could weave in some chapters from the POV of one of the other major characters (not the MMC, but another character whose actions are critical to the plot.) In this way, the reader can also follow events that are not taking place within the MFC's personal experience.

Or do YA readers prefer to be "seeing through the MC's eyes" throughout the entire novel?

Just wonderin'.

Cam

Personally I think YA readers will prefer whatever's good. If it's done well, it'll get read. The Harry Potter has a few chapters in each book (I think, have to re-read in order to be sure but I know they're there) that deviate from Harry's POV and to someplace that he couldn't possibly be in order to convey plot. If it's relevant try it and see how it works. I think keeping the POV limited per chapter would work by far much better than within the same chapter.

cameronknight:
In general, it seems to me (flipping through a selection of YA novels) that for the most part, YA novels are written from a limited point of view. I mean that in the technical sense i.e. the entire story is told from the MC POV and nothing outside of his or her direct experience is in the story.

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I think you're asking about how many points of view/perspectives/narrators you should include in your novel rather than the use of a limited or omniscient perspective. An omniscient pont of view is usually but not always (e.g. Markus Zusak's The Book Thief is written in first person omniscient as Death is the all knowing narrator) written in the third person, with the author using it to bounce between what's going on in all the character's heads at the same time and drop hints as to what will happen and what has happened to each.

cameronknight:
As I get further into the "meat" of the story I'm wondering if it might make the story more interesting and give it more depth if I could weave in some chapters from the POV of one of the other major characters (not the MMC, but another character whose actions are critical to the plot.) In this way, the reader can also follow events that are not taking place within the MFC's personal experience.

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There's no right or wrong answer to this other than to write what works for your story and what gets the information across in the best way. For example, Jonathan Stroud's Bartimaeus Trilogy has chapters narrated by Bartimaeus in the first person, so you get the history of demons/djinn etc and their relationship with humans and then chapters for each of John Mandrake and Kitty so that the reader can follow their story arcs as well.

The trick is to make sure that the different perspectives you include don't confuse the reader (e.g. don't use them to introduce completely new characters to the reader all the time) and don't drown out the story of your main character(s).

I have 3 main points of view going on at the start of my WIP, which I then whittle down to 2. I only introduce new ones if there's absolutely no other way of getting across the information about the plot that I need to get across (and I have to think about whether I do need to get that information across at that point or whether I'm just being self-indulgent).

MM

That's excellent advice, guys and thanks. I'll give it a try and see how I like it ... and yes, I was planning to do the alternate POV in separate chapters because one of my pet peeves is "head-hopping" within the same chapter ...

As well, the alternate POV I wanted to use was that of my main antagonist (somewhat after the way that Dan Brown wrote chapters from the POV of Silas in the Da Vinci Code. Of course that book was written from the get-go in Omniscient but I'm just using it as an example)

Onward!

Cam

I think a lot of adults forget what it's like to be the age of their target readers or MC's. I have a much better recollection of my childhood than most adults, but I still try to talk to kids of the target reader age group to get their critiques and two cents.
It makes me think, though: what really separates a YA novel from an adult (I don't mean X rated) one? I guess they are "fuzzy groups." We can rule out length of the book, swearing, sex, violence, etc. Besides, so many kids of that age read, or soon will read, adult books. I remember reading the Prince of Tides at 13 on the summer reading list and, well, that's one disturbing book! Good, though.