Cowardly, nihilistic f☆☮☎trumpets murder journalists

Amadan

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Well, I think freedom of speech is interpreted quite differently throughout the world. That is, lots of people agree with the concept, but most also agree that there are limits. It's deciding where the limits fall that makes this not a black and white issue.

My impression is that the US system has fewer limits than other Western countries, but I could be wrong about that.


cornflake's reference to the First Amendment was unfortunate, since that caused yet another derail into The-US-is-not-the-World, but the specific point being addressed was Once!'s arguments like:

But equally the attacks don't suddenly make the cartoons okay either.
We don't allow white people to use the n word.
We are careful to use gender neutral language.
Our approach to freedom of speech is carefully nuanced so that we are balancing freedoms against tolerance.
What is happening is that Charlie Hebdo tried to enforce its cultural viewpoint by insisting that the freedom of speech was more important than the beliefs of one quarter of the world's population.



I am not sure who the "we" is that Once! is referring to, but it is certainly not a country that protects free speech in any meaningful sense.
 

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cornflake's reference to the First Amendment was unfortunate, since that caused yet another derail into The-US-is-not-the-World, but the specific point being addressed was Once!'s arguments like:

But equally the attacks don't suddenly make the cartoons okay either.
We don't allow white people to use the n word.
We are careful to use gender neutral language.
Our approach to freedom of speech is carefully nuanced so that we are balancing freedoms against tolerance.
What is happening is that Charlie Hebdo tried to enforce its cultural viewpoint by insisting that the freedom of speech was more important than the beliefs of one quarter of the world's population.



I am not sure who the "we" is that Once! is referring to, but it is certainly not a country that protects free speech in any meaningful sense.

I think there's a difference between state intervention and 'appropriate' speech, though.

I don't think this is a good time to be having this conversation, because there's obviously nothing anyone could say, ever, that comes even close to justifying mass murder.

Separate from Charlie Hebdo, or even associated with Charlie Hebdo BEFORE the attack, I think there's a good argument to be made that responsible, respectful people will police their own speech even absent state intervention.

But making the argument right now probably isn't going to work, especially not in a thread dedicated to the tragedy.
 

Amadan

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I think there's a difference between state intervention and 'appropriate' speech, though.

Said about a million times already.

I've never known anyone who defends free speech who doesn't agree that a lot of things said under the banner of free speech are crappy things to say that we wish wouldn't be said.
 

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Said about a million times already.

I've never known anyone who defends free speech who doesn't agree that a lot of things said under the banner of free speech are crappy things to say that we wish wouldn't be said.

So why are you talking about "a country that protects free speech in any meaningful way"? I mean, if you already know and agree that there should be limits on free speech even if the government isn't involved, then why are you referring back to governmental controls?
 

Amadan

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So why are you talking about "a country that protects free speech in any meaningful way"? I mean, if you already know and agree that there should be limits on free speech even if the government isn't involved, then why are you referring back to governmental controls?



Because I understood Once! to be referring to governmental controls.

What do you mean by "limits"?

When people say "There are/should be limits to free speech," I consider that a meaningless statement unless they mean legal limits, because "free speech" is a legal construct. One does not talk about the "freedom" to say anything you like in someone's home or to post libelous material on AW.
 

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In the same way there was no organized group to decry Eric Rudolph, or the killers of other abortion providers, there's no organized group to decry nuts on that branch of the tree.

The constant 'well, the tons of so-called moderate muslims don't come out and denounce violence' (it's everyplace, not constant here), thing seems to suggest that if every random muslim doesn't stand up every time a nutter who identifies as muslim does something bad, they're somehow condoning or endorsing it. It's got nothing to do with them, any more that it's got anything to do with a random white guy when a bunch of white supremacists tie a black man to the back of a pickup truck and drag him to his death.
I asked the question sincerely a few days ago. A lot of people jumped all over me assuming I meant no Muslims anywhere ever had any right whatsoever to worship or believe as they do without constantly, publicly and loudly decrying Muslims terrorists at every turn. That wasn't what I meant in posing my question, though.

I did some of my own research and found that this extreme shove-words-in-my-mouth reaction actually made perfect sense in a certain context of which I was previously ignorant. That's my fault for not realizing that there is a vein of anti-Muslim rhetoric saying exactly what everyone here assumed I was implying: The question "why aren't we hearing from more Muslims?" is a really popular anti-Muslim sentiment typically followed by "Their silence proves they support terrorism!" which is not what I was implying. But the fact that just about everyone took it that way revealed my own ignorance on the topic.

Muslims don't need to apologize for the terrorism of extremists. I agree. I also did not demand that they do so or criticize them for not doing so. I just asked a dumb question not knowing that it was a question often posed by Islamophobes.

I had no expectation that "all non-terrorist Muslims" should decry terrorism to prove anything about their own intentions. I can only chalk up how badly that line of questioning went to my own clumsiness. What I meant, and obviously failed miserably to convey, was that I wasn't hearing any anti-terrorist sentiments from Muslims -- not in the way that we do commonly hear from Christian groups against Christian terrorists or hate groups (I provided several examples in an earlier post). That is not the same as "all" or even "most" Christians decrying the violence or hatred spewed by certain Christians.

A few people helpfully pointed out hashtags and such where there was indeed anti-terrorist sentiment coming from Muslims, and I thanked them for that.

I don't get those as the choices, nor why it's deafening more than anyone else's silence is deafening, though I see there've been responses. I came late to the party, heh.
Yeah, I see now that it's not really "silence" and it's not deafening at all, and some of the problem is the media I'm most exposed to (NPR, AP) really not covering the anti-terrorist sentiments of those who share that religion.
 
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Lyv

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I asked the question sincerely a few days ago.
I am really glad of that, and it's what I had assumed the first time I responded to you. Then, when you came back with your "crickets" or equivalent response after not that long, I rethought that. I'd done a quick Google and gotten a LOT of hits, but figured it would be easier for you to do the same to see which ones you felt satisfied your criteria, whatever it was. I have provided links to those who asked what you did more than once, only to hear those groups weren't big enough or their condemnations weren't strong enough yada yada. I thought if you did just a few minutes of your own research you'd see that there wasn't a silence at all. So, as I have always respected the hell out of you, I am glad my first assumption that you asked in good faith was correct.

There is a double standard when it comes to Christians and Muslims. And using Westboro as an example of Christians condemning extremist Christians isn't a good one, as there was almost almost no condemnation from Christians when Westboro was getting publicity for protesting the funerals of GLBTQ people. That only really got started in any significant numbers after Westboro (realizing few people cared then) moved on the funerals of soldiers and children.

But, yes, there are Christians who will condemn hate speech and acts of terrorism by extremist Christians. There are Christians who don't. The former is a good thing and should be commended, and not ignored or waved off as insufficient. Usually, though, that condemnation is accompanied by a reminder that those people aren't "real" Christians. That they're not "all like that." Well, neither are most Muslims like the extremists. But some of the same Christians who are quick to distance themselves from Christian extremists will pick up a big, tarry brush when it comes to Muslim extremists (see Fox News for examples).
 

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Slavoj Žižek on the Charlie Hebdo massacre: Are the worst really full of passionate intensity?

Now, when we are all in a state of shock after the killing spree in the Charlie Hebdo offices, it is the right moment to gather the courage to think. We should, of course, unambiguously condemn the killings as an attack on the very substance our freedoms, and condemn them without any hidden caveats (in the style of "Charlie Hebdo was nonetheless provoking and humiliating the Muslims too much"). But such pathos of universal solidarity is not enough – we should think further.

Such thinking has nothing whatsoever to do with the cheap relativisation of the crime (the mantra of "who are we in the West, perpetrators of terrible massacres in the Third World, to condemn such acts"). It has even less to do with the pathological fear of many Western liberal Leftists to be guilty of Islamophobia. For these false Leftists, any critique of Islam is denounced as an expression of Western Islamophobia; Salman Rushdie was denounced for unnecessarily provoking Muslims and thus (partially, at least) responsible for the fatwa condemning him to death, etc. The result of such stance is what one can expect in such cases: the more the Western liberal Leftists probe into their guilt, the more they are accused by Muslim fundamentalists of being hypocrites who try to conceal their hatred of Islam. This constellation perfectly reproduces the paradox of the superego: the more you obey what the Other demands of you, the guiltier you are. It is as if the more you tolerate Islam, the stronger its pressure on you will be . . .

This is why I also find insufficient calls for moderation along the lines of Simon Jenkins's claim (in The Guardian on January 7) that our task is “not to overreact, not to over-publicise the aftermath. It is to treat each event as a passing accident of horror” – the attack on Charlie Hebdo was not a mere “passing accident of horror”. it followed a precise religious and political agenda and was as such clearly part of a much larger pattern. Of course we should not overreact, if by this is meant succumbing to blind Islamophobia – but we should ruthlessly analyse this pattern.

What is much more needed than the demonisation of the terrorists into heroic suicidal fanatics is a debunking of this demonic myth. Long ago Friedrich Nietzsche perceived how Western civilisation was moving in the direction of the Last Man, an apathetic creature with no great passion or commitment. Unable to dream, tired of life, he takes no risks, seeking only comfort and security, an expression of tolerance with one another: “A little poison now and then: that makes for pleasant dreams. And much poison at the end, for a pleasant death. They have their little pleasures for the day, and their little pleasures for the night, but they have a regard for health. ‘We have discovered happiness,’ - say the Last Men, and they blink.”

It effectively may appear that the split between the permissive First World and the fundamentalist reaction to it runs more and more along the lines of the opposition between leading a long satisfying life full of material and cultural wealth, and dedicating one's life to some transcendent Cause. Is this antagonism not the one between what Nietzsche called "passive" and "active" nihilism? We in the West are the Nietzschean Last Men, immersed in stupid daily pleasures, while the Muslim radicals are ready to risk everything, engaged in the struggle up to their self-destruction. William Butler Yeats’ “Second Coming” seems perfectly to render our present predicament: “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.” This is an excellent description of the current split between anemic liberals and impassioned fundamentalists. “The best” are no longer able fully to engage, while “the worst” engage in racist, religious, sexist fanaticism.
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-a...re-are-worst-really-full-passionate-intensity
 

Devil Ledbetter

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I am really glad of that, and it's what I had assumed the first time I responded to you. Then, when you came back with your "crickets" or equivalent response after not that long, I rethought that.
Actually, absolutely no one had yet responded to my original question about Muslim anti-terrorist organizations (in post 30) or activities at the time I said "crickets" a couple of hours later (post 33). The way you've stated it here makes it sound like you responded and I ignored that response and said "crickets."

To be clear, given how things were (understandably in context) misconstrued after my ill-advised question, I wasn't looking for individual Muslims decrying terrorism in order to justify their existence. I was asking what, if any, organization and concerted action was taking place to address it from within the ranks of Muslims themselves. There were some good answers to that re: Muslims not being a monolith and French Muslim citizens being represented by French law and law enforcement, etc. (I want to credit Robovowels for making that good point, but man there are a lot of posts in this thread so if it was someone else, I'm sorry.)

I'd done a quick Google and gotten a LOT of hits, but figured it would be easier for you to do the same to see which ones you felt satisfied your criteria, whatever it was. I have provided links to those who asked what you did more than once, only to hear those groups weren't big enough or their condemnations weren't strong enough yada yada. I
Fair enough. I was unnecessarily dismissive.

thought if you did just a few minutes of your own research you'd see that there wasn't a silence at all. So, as I have always respected the hell out of you, I am glad my first assumption that you asked in good faith was correct.
I did end up doing more research and that was when I realized why my question was poorly received. My mistake. If I'd had realized that sort of question was commonly asked disingenuously by Islamophobes to discredit Muslims I'd have given it wide berth.

There is a double standard when it comes to Christians and Muslims. And using Westboro as an example of Christians condemning extremist Christians isn't a good one, as there was almost almost no condemnation from Christians when Westboro was getting publicity for protesting the funerals of GLBTQ people. That only really got started in any significant numbers after Westboro (realizing few people cared then) moved on the funerals of soldiers and children.

But, yes, there are Christians who will condemn hate speech and acts of terrorism by extremist Christians. There are Christians who don't. The former is a good thing and should be commended, and not ignored or waved off as insufficient. Usually, though, that condemnation is accompanied by a reminder that those people aren't "real" Christians. That they're not "all like that." Well, neither are most Muslims like the extremists. But some of the same Christians who are quick to distance themselves from Christian extremists will pick up a big, tarry brush when it comes to Muslim extremists (see Fox News for examples).
I've seen lots of Christian condemnation of Westboro's anti-gay protests. I don't even want to get started on "real" Christians. I believe anyone who self-identifies as belonging to/representing a religion both belongs to and respresents it regardless of whether others deem them "real" and that would include Westboro, as badly as they seem to understand the Christian faith. But that's another topic for another thread.

I appreciate your words of respect; I only hope I can continue to earn it.
 
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I asked the question sincerely a few days ago. A lot of people jumped all over me assuming I meant no Muslims anywhere ever had any right whatsoever to worship or believe as they do without constantly, publicly and loudly decrying Muslims terrorists at every turn. That wasn't what I meant in posing my question, though.

I did some of my own research and found that this extreme shove-words-in-my-mouth reaction actually made perfect sense in a certain context of which I was previously ignorant. That's my fault for not realizing that there is a vein of anti-Muslim rhetoric saying exactly what everyone here assumed I was implying: The question "why aren't we hearing from more Muslims?" is a really popular anti-Muslim sentiment typically followed by "Their silence proves they support terrorism!" which is not what I was implying. But the fact that just about everyone took it that way revealed my own ignorance on the topic.

Muslims don't need to apologize for the terrorism of extremists. I agree. I also did not demand that they do so or criticize them for not doing so. I just asked a dumb question not knowing that it was a question often posed by Islamophobes.

I had no expectation that "all non-terrorist Muslims" should decry terrorism to prove anything about their own intentions. I can only chalk up how badly that line of questioning went to my own clumsiness. What I meant, and obviously failed miserably to convey, was that I wasn't hearing any anti-terrorist sentiments from Muslims -- not in the way that we do commonly hear from Christian groups against Christian terrorists or hate groups (I provided several examples in an earlier post). That is not the same as "all" or even "most" Christians decrying the violence or hatred spewed by certain Christians.

A few people helpfully pointed out hashtags and such where there was indeed anti-terrorist sentiment coming from Muslims, and I thanked them for that.

Yeah, I see now that it's not really "silence" and it's not deafening at all, and some of the problem is the media I'm most exposed to (NPR, AP) really not covering the anti-terrorist sentiments of those who share that religion.

I'm sorry if I was one who shoved word in your mouth. A lot of people were asking that question with very different intentions so it was just a knee-jerk-reaction if I did.

But it's a valid question which pinpoints how little mainstream media reports on Muslim activity unless it's about murder and mayhem. There's very little dialogue on both sides which is an excellent breeding ground for fear and misunderstanding. So daring to ask questions is really, really important, and it's a sad testament to how loaded the issue is that people immediately assume bad intentions. It makes it almost impossible to have a rational discussion and that, I think, is what we need more than anything. Not grandstanding, not rhetorics, just dialogue with good intentions (which should, obviously, always be our first assumption).
 

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The way you've stated it here makes it sound like you responded and I ignored that response and said "crickets."
I apologize. I did get that wrong. But it doesn't really change my point. You asked, and not that much later came back with that response. I had Googled and I guess I was still mulling how to respond (because I felt Googling yourself would probably work the best) without it seeming snarky. I honestly wanted to help, but given that I have had the kind of flu that had me (yesterday) trying to make a phone call on my TV remote for almost two minutes, I am not at my best for culling links.

I've seen lots of Christian condemnation of Westboro's anti-gay protests.
Now. Maybe for years now. But there really was very little of that before Westboro broadened their attacks. The media covered Westboro when they protested the funerals of GLBTQ folks, but there were much fewer counter protests and little outcry. That's *why* Westboro diversified. Now, when it's Westboro, people spring into action, but I firmly believe it they had never started protesting military funerals and those of children, etc, the outcry would be smaller than it is now. Back then, too, there was much less support for marriage equality and other GLBTQ rights, and it showed. I was following Westboro closely back then, and I still do. Even now, if you read through condemnations of Westboro, most people will talk about military funerals and victims of high profile shootings, but not near as many will include GLBTQ people. I watched the evolution of this, and it remains a sore spot for me. I am glad more Christians and others have come around on this, but the history is what it is.
 

Amadan

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There is a double standard when it comes to Christians and Muslims. And using Westboro as an example of Christians condemning extremist Christians isn't a good one, as there was almost almost no condemnation from Christians when Westboro was getting publicity for protesting the funerals of GLBTQ people. That only really got started in any significant numbers after Westboro (realizing few people cared then) moved on the funerals of soldiers and children.

I remember Christians denouncing "GodHatesFag" long before the WBC became famous for their funeral picketing. You're right that they only started getting attention in meatspace when they started protesting at soldiers' funerals, but they were Internet-famous (and loathed) for years before that.
 

Lyv

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I remember Christians denouncing "GodHatesFag" long before the WBC became famous for their funeral picketing. You're right that they only started getting attention in meatspace when they started protesting at soldiers' funerals, but they were Internet-famous (and loathed) for years before that.

I don't know what "meatspace" is. I do know that the media covered Westboro when it was targeting only GLBTQ and almost no one cared, Christians included. So, yeah, maybe a few were the exceptions. That's great that they were countering that hate and bigotry. I sure didn't expect all Christians to speak out against them, and I don't fault all Christians because so few did before Westboro figured out how to make more people object.
 

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cornflake's reference to the First Amendment was unfortunate, since that caused yet another derail into The-US-is-not-the-World, but the specific point being addressed was Once!'s arguments like:

We don't allow white people to use the n word.

We don't allow White people to use the N Word? News to me. Since when?

Explain the career of Quentin Tarantino to me then. :rolleyes:
 

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We don't allow White people to use the N Word? News to me. Since when?

Explain the career of Quentin Tarantino to me then. :rolleyes:

Artistic license? Lack of imagination? Going for the 'shock factor'?

Anyone with the tiniest sense of personal propriety doesn't use it casually. Those that do are usually trying to prove that they don't care what anyone thinks, or come from a place of such in-bred isolationism that they probably can't find their ass with both hands and help from their cousin/brother/uncle.
 

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Artistic license? Lack of imagination? Going for the 'shock factor'?

Anyone with the tiniest sense of personal propriety doesn't use it casually. Those that do are usually trying to prove that they don't care what anyone thinks, or come from a place of such in-bred isolationism that they probably can't find their ass with both hands and help from their cousin/brother/uncle.

That makes sense. I just figured Q.T. wanted to be down with the wigger realness whenever he's rollin' with Samuel L. Jackson.
 

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Raids have happened in Belgium, killing two. The raid was to get at the arms route used by the aforementioned f☆☮☎trumpets.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30840160

The area around the train station has been cordoned off and reports on social media say there is a heavy police presence in the town centre.

Media reports suggested those targeted were suspected jihadists who had recently returned from Syria.

Intelligence had indicated that they had been planning an attack, the reports added.

. . .

Belgian media has reported that some of the weapons used in the attacks in Paris were bought near the Midi train station in Brussels.
 

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I just don't understand how there is this popular, "peaceful" religion has these horribly violent, murderous factions yet the peace-loving muslims we're always hearing about, who presumably outnumber the murderous ones by millionfolds don't have any organized efforts to address this issue.

That we're aware of, anyway.
My dear friend. As a former Muslim from Lebanon and teacher of Islamic history, it never ceases to amaze me - ever since I came to Great Britain - how many Westerners actually believe that Islam is a peaceful religion. Islam is not a peaceful religion.

Sadly, my dear friend, the terrorists in Paris and “the horribly violent, murderous factions” you speak of, are indeed, according to Islam’s most reliable sources, the most devout followers of the faith. They interpret the Qur’an to its literal word. Both the Qur’an and the Hadith unequivocally command Muslims to kill people who insult their religion, or its founder. It’s why my father was killed in Lebanon, and why those people in Paris are dead.

Naturally, my dear friend, I am not here to upset anybody. I am here to respect all people and engage in civilized discourse. However, despite not finding anything in the forum rules that forbids critical examination of Islam, I somehow get the feeling that my erudition on the subject may potentially upset or offend other people here. That is not my intent, and I’ll refrain if that’s the case. But if AW would like me to offer you the red pill, and if you take it, I will show you just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Remember - all I am offering is the truth.

May peace be upon you, my friend.

Tanbir,


Personally, I always thought it was more a facet of history and politics that leads to a lot of Muslim terrorists.

If you had the same stuff that happened to the Middle East over the past century happen to the United States, you'd get a bunch of home grown Christian terrorists.

So, I think that an outreach program within Islam to curb extremism would be good...what would be better would be trying to correct what creates terrorists in the first place: Inequality, colonialism, and all that rot.

Dear Zoombie. With the greatest respect, your assumption is always the assumption of those who choose not to look too closely. The motives of Islamic terrorists have little to do with western foreign policy, my dear friend. I’m afraid. Muslims are at war with everyone for the same theological reasons.

If you had the same stuff that happened to the Middle East over the past century happen to the United States, you would not get a bunch of home grown Christian terrorists.

To put this in simple terms, Zoombie, unlike the Bible’s passages of violence (which is the only religious scripture that comes close to the Qur’an in terms of abundant violent passages), the Qur’an’s passages of violence are not characterized by “descriptive” narrative that’s restrained or bounded by historical context, but rather “prescriptive” commands that apply to all Muslims, and the present day.

In terms of violence and modern day warfare, however, the prophet Muhammad, and his military legacy, is precisely what truly separates Islam from other religions and makes it terribly unique. I hope this helps.

May peace be upon you, my friend.

Tanbir,

The truth is, Muslim leaders are speaking out, but their voices are drowned out by sensationalism, such as the comments made by Palmer United Party MP Jacqui Lambie on Insiders last week when she equated sharia law to terrorism. Lambie's comments got a lot more media attention than when the Australian National Imams Council issued a media statement on September 15, that likened Islamic State to a "group of criminals" with nothing Islamic about their murderous actions, and stated: "Since the ISIS group was established we have been very clear about denouncing their lies and betrayal of our faith."

How will Australians know that Muslim leaders are speaking out if the media chooses to cover it so scantily? For example, there was little, if any, coverage on July 2 when two of the world's most prominent Muslim leaders denounced Islamic State, one of them Iyad Ameen Madani, the Secretary General for the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, which represents 1.4 billion Muslims in 57 countries.

Madani stated that the actions of Islamic State "have nothing to do with Islam and its principles that call for justice, kindness, fairness, freedom of faith and coexistence", but his words fell on deaf ears. Since then there have been unequivocal condemnations from Muslim leaders around the globe.

In Britain, more than 100 Sunni and Shiite religious leaders produced a video denouncing Islamic State titled: UK Imams against ISIS. But since July it has only received 54,515 views, whereas the video of Lambie's interview on Insiders had more than 87,500 views in the past four days. The voices of the ignorant on Islam are much louder than those of the learned.
Hello Mccardey. Nobody is denying that Muslim leaders speak out against terrorism. What people are sceptical about, is their self-absorption and knee-jerk offence. Their perpetual grievance comes first, always – and often not their remorse for the hundreds of innocent souls who are horribly murdered in the name of their religion every day, as they are busy throwing tantrums, complaining how Muslims are mistreated, whilst ignoring the terrible human rights abuses of non-Muslims throughout the Islamic world, demanding special privileges for themselves that they explicitly deny others.

Also, along with their astounding reluctance to extend equal moral consideration to those outside of Islam, their focus quickly shifts away from the condemnations, and onto the emphasis of attaching the word “phobia” to the name of their religion, to force people into silence. This is where they lose their credibility.

My dear friend, saying that ISIS has got nothing to do with Islam, is like saying Donald Duck has got nothing to do with Walt Disney. Nobody is buying this flagrant sophistry anymore. ISIS are connected to Islam because, firstly, that’s the connection they choose to make, and if groups like ISIS are invoking the example of the prophet Muhammad with hundreds of verses from the Qur’an, then moderate Muslims need to re-evaluate Muhammad’s influence and power within their religion, remove the word “phobia” from the title of their religion, and allow critical examination to carry over to where it’s desperately needed.

Just think about it carefully for a moment. If 1.6 billion people honestly and steadfastly believe that a man like Muhammad is the perfect example of human conduct, the ideal role model, then what impact could you possibly expect that to have on this world other than the one we are experiencing?

May peace be upon you, my friend.

Tanbir,
 
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