Will An Agent Accept A Self-Published Book?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kateness

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
2,716
Reaction score
884
Location
Wilmington, DE
Website
kateness.wordpress.com
Fantasy and sci-fi can run as long as 120,000 words (or longer, to be honest), but hitting the 100,000 mark isn't a deal-breaker by any means. 200,000 is probably still a deal-breaker for debut fantasy/sci-fi (though once you're established in the genre...well, let's just say that most of the fantasy/sci-fi books I have purchased are considerably more than 100k)
 
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
2,368
Reaction score
105
Location
The Best Place In The World...Absolute Write!!
P.S.) Would you please consider changing the purple font to black? It's a bit difficult to read.


Ok.

My brain just exploded.


Why? Did I say something wrong?

In answer to the question in the thread title only----YES. It happened to a friend of mine. I can't speak to anything else, but I can tell you a friend who self-published was picked up by a New York agent...


Ok, thanks for sharing this. :)

Score!

I've heard of it, but to people who've already sold a significant number of copies. Significant being 5K +

Oh, bummer...

Argh. the Drama!!!


I am sorry, but that was the way I felt at the moment, and I had to express it.

WAIT. in one day you took a 141,000 word manuscript and made it an 81,646 word manuscript? Okay...I thought I was confused by this thread before...but this really confuses me.


What exactly confused you about this thread? What exactly confused you about this particular post? It's like taking a big chocolate bar, a huge one, and cutting it into many different chunks.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
29,138
Reaction score
8,563
Location
Toronto
Website
ktcraig.com
What exactly confused you about this thread? What exactly confused you about this particular post? It's like taking a big chocolate bar, a huge one, and cutting it into many different chunks.

just that you removed almost 60,000 words in one day. usually you wouldn't just chop it into pieces. it takes a lot of time and effort to edit down a manuscript. A LOT.
 
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
2,368
Reaction score
105
Location
The Best Place In The World...Absolute Write!!
Maybe a better alternative would be to set aside this project and write something new and better and shorter. It sounds like this may be one of your first manuscripts. It's fairly normal to write a humongous manuscript the first time or two.

Shove those under your bed and begin again. It's part of the learning process.


That would be kind of hard for me to do after all the work I did on those books.

200k words IS too long for romance. Most publishers want between 80k-100k for romance novels (though several HarperCollins/Avon lines go as low as 60k) -

A notable exception is for Harlequin's category lines, which run 50-65k words.


Other genres are different, but I don't know much about them. Romance is my thing. :D

:)

Fantasy and sci-fi can run as long as 120,000 words (or longer, to be honest), but hitting the 100,000 mark isn't a deal-breaker by any means. 200,000 is probably still a deal-breaker for debut fantasy/sci-fi (though once you're established in the genre...well, let's just say that most of the fantasy/sci-fi books I have purchased are considerably more than 100k)


Thanks, most of my books are sci-fi, and I will keep that in mind. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
31,660
Reaction score
11,407
Location
lost among the words
Fantasy and sci-fi can run as long as 120,000 words (or longer, to be honest), but hitting the 100,000 mark isn't a deal-breaker by any means. 200,000 is probably still a deal-breaker for debut fantasy/sci-fi (though once you're established in the genre...well, let's just say that most of the fantasy/sci-fi books I have purchased are considerably more than 100k)

What I've heard from agents and editors over the years is that even 200K is not a deal breaker. HOWEVER, for every K over their max preferred amount (say, 125K), the book has to be so damned FANTASTIC that it just rocks their world better than their favorite secret vice and the very concept of it puts dollar signs in their eyes. Literally.

THAT is hard to do, even if we writers are positive that we've achieved it in spades.

So--can it be done? Sure it can. But the odds are against the vast majority of us. Most of us probably have a better chance of winning the mega-lottery solo than writing such a book.
 
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
2,368
Reaction score
105
Location
The Best Place In The World...Absolute Write!!
just that you removed almost 60,000 words in one day. usually you wouldn't just chop it into pieces. it takes a lot of time and effort to edit down a manuscript. A LOT.


Ok. I didn't remove 60,000 words in one day. The original manuscript was 239,000 words. What I did was to divide that manuscript into three different manuscripts that were almost 80,000 words each. I opened a new blank document and I pasted some of the chapters into it, without removing any of the words. Then, I pasted the last few chapters of the manuscript into the second blank document, and I left the original manuscript with about 20 chapters. Then, I edited the manuscript for spelling and grammar errors. That is what I did. That's how one large manuscript became three small ones. I didn't remove any of the scenes, nothing.
 
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
2,368
Reaction score
105
Location
The Best Place In The World...Absolute Write!!
What I've heard from agents and editors over the years is that even 200K is not a deal breaker. HOWEVER, for every K over their max preferred amount (say, 125K), the book has to be so damned FANTASTIC that it just rocks their world better than their favorite secret vice and the very concept of it puts dollar signs in their eyes. Literally.

THAT is hard to do, even if we writers are positive that we've achieved it in spades.

So--can it be done? Sure it can. But the odds are against the vast majority of us. Most of us probably have a better chance of winning the mega-lottery solo than writing such a book.



Thank you so much, Delayan Lee!! You rock!! :)
 

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
13,952
Reaction score
1,746
Location
Coastal Desert
Please use the multi-quote function rather than answering everyone individually. The Newbie Guide explains how, if you need help with it.
 

shadowwalker

empty-nester!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
5,601
Reaction score
598
Location
SE Minnesota
Ok. I didn't remove 60,000 words in one day. The original manuscript was 239,000 words. What I did was to divide that manuscript into three different manuscripts that were almost 80,000 words each. I opened a new blank document and I pasted some of the chapters into it, without removing any of the words. Then, I pasted the last few chapters of the manuscript into the second blank document, and I left the original manuscript with about 20 chapters. Then, I edited the manuscript for spelling and grammar errors. That is what I did. That's how one large manuscript became three small ones. I didn't remove any of the scenes, nothing.

Now I'm confused. You just divided one large document into three smaller ones? No new intro/ending to each of the three new ones? Are these new documents stories in and of themselves, as is?

I get the feeling you're paying way too much attention to word count and perhaps not enough to the story/stories... :Huh:
 

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
29,138
Reaction score
8,563
Location
Toronto
Website
ktcraig.com
Now I'm confused. You just divided one large document into three smaller ones? No new intro/ending to each of the three new ones? Are these new documents stories in and of themselves, as is?

I get the feeling you're paying way too much attention to word count and perhaps not enough to the story/stories... :Huh:

stop thinking what I'm thinking at the same time that I'm thinking it!

(-:
 

roseangel

Crazy Young Cat Lady
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
510
Reaction score
26
Location
Off in my head.
Now I'm confused. You just divided one large document into three smaller ones? No new intro/ending to each of the three new ones? Are these new documents stories in and of themselves, as is?

I get the feeling you're paying way too much attention to word count and perhaps not enough to the story/stories... :Huh:

Right, what she said.
All three of your stories can stand alone, right? Even if they are direct prequels/sequels to one another, you can read them out of order and have a beginning, middle and end and still understand the whole story? Right? They don't just stop suddenly?
 

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
5,363
Reaction score
1,761
Location
Getting blitzed at Gillhoughly's Reef, Haleakaloha
cart-before-horse-2.jpg

Bit of a problem!


Okay, there's a lot of conflicting suggestions here, from word count, font choice, what agents will or will not do.

Let's simplify.

A) an agent will judge on the merits of the MS in hand.
B) they may consider a 140K-word MS to be a bit long
C) 200K+ words IS insanely long unless your name is Robert Jordan.
D) Courier or Times New Roman are equally welcome as fonts. I prefer reading and writing in TNR.
D) The fact the book was up on CreateSpace means the first publication rights to THAT BOOK are gone forever.
E) Few to no publishers will be interested in a reprint.

BUT--have you had people to beta-read this book?

I'm thinking if you get some fresh, serious, and substantial feedback, do full rewrites and edit the hell out of it again, trim the deadwood--and in a 140K word MS there WILL be deadwood--you'll have a different book than the one you self-published. Put on a new title, change character names--and rewrite AGAIN, and your problems are solved.

This is not an instant process. My first took a year to write the first draft, 2 years of rejections, 25 rewrites of chapter one, 2-3 FULL rewrites of the whole danged book--on a manual typewriter!!!

And I was on the fast track to publication!

What saved me were a few brave beta-readers giving me feedback I needed. I didn't like what they said, but I wanted the book to be better even if I disagreed with them.

When three people told me a minor character in my first book was dull--b-b-b-but she's my fav!!!--I ruthlessly removed her.

The book sold the next time out.
 
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
2,368
Reaction score
105
Location
The Best Place In The World...Absolute Write!!
Ok, then this what I've decided. I've just realized that there is no need to keep these books and that besides those books, I have 23 other manuscripts to work with that I have never published before, and that's plenty, so I am going to delete everything, throw out the disc that those manuscripts were saved on, finish my unfinished manuscripts and if I get new ideas for new ones, I will write new ones.



Thanks for all your advice. I didn't mean to be mean or to write all those posts, and I am not angry that you deleted them because they were very rude and I apologize. I realize that I was wrong. Once again, I am sorry.


Magali.
 

shadowwalker

empty-nester!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
5,601
Reaction score
598
Location
SE Minnesota
Definitely don't throw the baby out with the bath!

I get the feeling that you're too impulsive/impatient (?). SLOW DOWN. You don't have to destroy what you've already done. You just have to work with it. That's what writing is. Unless, of course, you *know* that what you've written is pure garbage - and I don't think you really believe that.
 

RoseColoredSkies

It's a long and winding road
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
766
Reaction score
53
Location
Brighton
Website
www.sarah-biglow.com
As others have said, you don't need to throw away these novels. Just put them aside and focus on new work. Just because these weren't THE ONES to get you published, doesn't mean you shoudn't just ditch them. After all, you did spend a significant amount of time writing them.

I keep all of my old manuscripts because I never know if someday they may come in handy. Plus, it's nice to see how far I've come as a writer.

So don't ditch them. Just set them in a drawer and focus on a new project.
 

Little Red Barn

haz own threads
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
2,839
Reaction score
3,669
Ok, then this what I've decided. I've just realized that there is no need to keep these books and that besides those books, I have 23 other manuscripts to work with that I have never published before, and that's plenty, so I am going to delete everything, throw out the disc that those manuscripts were saved on, finish my unfinished manuscripts and if I get new ideas for new ones, I will write new ones.



Thanks for all your advice. I didn't mean to be mean or to write all those posts, and I am not angry that you deleted them because they were very rude and I apologize. I realize that I was wrong. Once again, I am sorry.


Magali.
hugs. and what Gravity said.

eta: this is a writers forum and you are allowed to ask questions, to learn. and i'm sure you've been told, there are no stupid questions ... just :)
x0
 

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
Ok, then this what I've decided. I've just realized that there is no need to keep these books and that besides those books, I have 23 other manuscripts to work with that I have never published before, and that's plenty, so I am going to delete everything, throw out the disc that those manuscripts were saved on, finish my unfinished manuscripts and if I get new ideas for new ones, I will write new ones.

Magali.

Magali, I have to agree with the others that you need to take a deep breath and slow down. It's truly not necessary to delete them. The mere fact of paring the book down from a 141K book to 86K could very well be enough to remove the first rights issue. The trick is that the book is romance. Do those 86K words still encompass a fully realized romance with a Happily Ever After? If so, then think twice before you throw away that CD-R. If not, then what you did might be best--just to get your mind off of it. After all, it can still sell as is on CreateSpace (unless you deleted it there too.)

If you have 23 other books, then it might be worthwhile to concentrate on a new one. FOR NOW. But there are always options for the future and things you'll learn in the process can allow you to come back to this book with fresh eyes and know just what needs to happen to it to make it saleable.

Most of all, don't get discouraged. We all have to admit when we've made mistakes. It's part of the process and that's okay. You don't have to wipe the slate clean of your mistakes. Just own them and take a deep breath. :)
 

roseangel

Crazy Young Cat Lady
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
510
Reaction score
26
Location
Off in my head.
I never throw any story/poem I write out, I never know when there is something in them that I can use for something else, even when I think I've wrote utter garbage.
 
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
2,368
Reaction score
105
Location
The Best Place In The World...Absolute Write!!
Well, here's the update... after what Gillhoughly said, (did I spell his nickname correctly?) that the first publishing rights would be gone forever, no matter if I publish and then unpublished something, it's dead, and so I deleted all of the manuscripts I have published before, on Lulu, CreateSpace and Wordclay, and I didn't realize I had published so many, when I thought back and said, 'Oh, crap, I published this already...'



So now I have 11 manuscripts, 5 of which I've finished, that is written 80k words or close to that, and everything that's below 80k I consider unfinished, so yeah, that's what I did so far. I know that I could've made changes to the manuscripts and turn them into completely different novels, but for me, it's easier to just delete them completely and rewrite them from scratch, like I've done many other of my past novels, that is the novels that I've lost access to and could never finish, 10 years ago. As for the CD-R I just deleted the manuscript folder off it and saved the disc because I formatted it as a live-file system, meaning I formatted it like a USB flash drive where I could always add more files or delete files.


I thank everyone for your advice and now that my manuscripts are going to be 80-90k words, 90k if it's sci-fi, and no more than 90k, it's going to be easier for me to finish my unfinished manuscripts because most of them are +40k already, and if I was able to write a few 200k novels in the past, in less than two months in those cases, I'll be able to finish my unfinished novels and then write more. I will not query any of my finished novels until I finish my unfinished ones.



I love you guys very much, all of you, and I apologize if I've treated any of you unfairly.
Magali.
 

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
13,952
Reaction score
1,746
Location
Coastal Desert
None of your posts were deleted; the serial posts were merged into one post.

Have you read the Newbie Guide?
 
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
2,368
Reaction score
105
Location
The Best Place In The World...Absolute Write!!
Thank you so much. I've decided to give my other manuscripts another chance and make changes on to them, including the titles and the character names, as other posters have advised me. I was lucky to find copies of those manuscripts on another CD-R.


Thanks, CaoPaux.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.