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Replace dialogue tags (said, answered, replied, asked) with...?

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maestrowork

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"Careful," she whispered.

"Whisper" is allowed; it's a legit tag.

What is not allowed is if you have three more whispereds following this one.

There's nothing wrong with the occasional adverbs, if they're appropriate. "He said thoughtfully" is acceptable. One can argue, however, that you can do better than "he said thoughtfully" especially within context.
 

RobJ

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"Whisper" is allowed; it's a legit tag.

What is not allowed is if you have three more whispereds following this one.
Who decided that whisper is allowed? How did they come up with the number three for how many are allowed afterwards? What happens if someone uses four? What happens if someone uses four and the publisher goes ahead and publishes it anyway?

Cheers,
Rob
 

Cyia

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Who decided that whisper is allowed? How did they come up with the number three for how many are allowed afterwards? What happens if someone uses four? What happens if someone uses four and the publisher goes ahead and publishes it anyway?

Cheers,
Rob

It sounds bad. That's what happens - and in most cases repeating it even once in the same dialogue exchange is too much.

"Don't." Joe whispered.

"Why not?"

"Because it's not the way it's done."

"Says who?" whispered Jane.

It neither looks nor reads right.

The same goes for:

"Don't." he whipsered quietly.

"Whispered" implies quietly. I've seen a lot of tags that are ridiculously repetitive.
 

NeuroFizz

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I think Ray's points are twofold:

(1) "Never" is not appropriate for words other than "said"--sometimes an attribution other than "said" is the best for the dialogue, and whispered is one that sometimes pops up in fiction that is generally consider well-written.

(2) Too many of the alternatives to "said" in close proximity will usually read as a clumsy passage (try writing a few lines of dialogue, put whispered after them, and read it out loud). Even if a group of people are whispering, a few carefully placed "whispered" attributions will be good enough until the scene requires a normal talking tone again.

I don't think Ray was suggesting any kind of grand declaration or any kind of quota.

As writers, we are free to write any way we want. But we have to abide by what agents and editors want or expect.

If I am putting words in your mouth, Ray, please say so.
 
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Ken

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"Hi Jane," whispered John.
"Hi John," whispered Jane.
"Why are we whispering?" whispered Jane.
"Beats me," whispered John.
 

Bubastes

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As writers, we are free to write any way we want. But we have to abide by what agents and editors want or expect.

Even more importantly, we need to make the story the best it can be. In many cases, that means getting rid of some tags and adverbs.
 
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...Yes, you DO want to get creative with your tags. Yes, you DO want to use things other than said, replied and asked. Yes, you DO want to use exclamation points.

No. You don't want to get creative with dialogue tags.

You'd be as well stripping naked, painting yourself purple and running across the rooftops singing, "Hello, hello, I'm an amateur!"

"The dog just ran off with my pants," the man said
vrs.
"The dog just ran off with my pants!" the man screamed

They paint very different pictures in the mind of the reader. The second one instantly gives a clear image of a man with some sort of emotional response. In the first you can't tell if he cares or not.

Um, no.

In the first sentence, I have the information I need. In the second, you're treating me like some sort of ming mong whose only brain cell is dying of loneliness and what's more, apparently I'm too stupid to get the meaning of your words so you have to beat me over the head with more.

And I'll say it again - dialogue is never discrete. It's always taken in context. What surrounds it, enlightens it.

You're not writing for WRITERS, you're writing for READERS.

Yes. Readers. Not vegetables.

The picture you're painting is important if you want them to see the same image that you see.

I'm a reader. And I don't enjoy being patronised.

Read Kazuo Ishiguro's novels. He's a master of brevity and no-one can say he's not a professional.

I am constantly having to go through submissions and delete multiple lines of text when I do line edits for the magazine or our books, because the writer refuses to use something other that said and won't use exclamation points.

Doesn't sound like a magazine I'd ever want to submit to, then.

Which forces them to get wordy and descriptive when a single sentence like the above works perfectly well.

No. Nothing forces you to get wordy or creative, apart from a mistaken sense of 'this will sound better'. It won't. The above sentence you gave as an example was diabolical.

First, find a thesaurus. An actual thesaurus, not an internet one. The internet is an evil distracting thing (so is the original Nintendo, but that's another story).

No. Don't. Thesauruses - thesaurii? - are evil things. If a word is not a natural part of your vocabulary and you have to go searching for it, it will seem tacked on to your writing, and make you look like a try-hard.

Use words you would normally use.

Even better, use words your characters would normally use.

Second, I'm sure it's been said that 'said, asked, etc.' are not to be used. I think that (much like everything else in life) in moderation is okay. However, if there is an emotion that needs to be conveyed, then do so in the dialog tag.

No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

And for clarity - NO.

Third, they really should be kept to a minimum..

Well yeah, you got that right!

it doesn't matter if you can actually shrug or giggle a word.

Excuse me?

This is a site for writers and you're telling us it doesn't matter?

What matters is that you are painting the image of a person talking and giggling at the same time

Something which is impossible to do.

So, if you want to be as good as Dan Brown, carry on.

or shrugging while talking.

This is possible. But you do not 'shrug' dialogue. IMPOSSIBLE.

You can write:

"I really don't know." He said, and then giggled

Or you can write

"I really don't know," he giggled.

No. You can't write the second example.

Unless you want to look a bit...well, daft.

Both send the same image to the reader.

Yes. And I don't need to tell you what image you'd be sending if you used that sentence in your writing.

That the person speaking is saying something and is also giggling

If I ever meet someone who can do that at the same time, I'll be amazed.

And probably off my tits on acid, if you want the truth.

The second version is preferable.

IN WHAT UNIVERSE???

THE ONE WHERE DAN BROWN IS GOD???

The first requires the reader to have to think just a bit harder

Oh god forbid the reader should have to think.

True, and your examples are excellent. However, I was trying to make a point between a bland, boring sentence and one with more impact.

A scoop of vanilla ice cream is much more interesting with only one cherry on top than a plain scoop is, though not nearly as interesting as a scoop of vanilla ice cream with sprinkles, a dollop of whipped cream and a cherry on top.

Yeah.

When I eat ice cream I don't want to kill it with too many flavours.

Would you add every spice available to a meal, or enough to make it delicious?

...NeuroFizz is right on the money, as is ScarletPeaches.

Quoted to say thank you. :)

I'm not an editor or a ghostwriter, but I am a published author. I write for readers, and I'm careful not to use adverbs and wonky speaker tags like giggled and growled, LOL! :roll:My agent would cut me loose if I butchered my dialogue like that. Fifteen years of writing has taught me much, and I could never buy what you're selling.

AMEN.

You may not be an editor or a ghostwriter, but hell - we're all writers here. And all readers I hope and we know bad writing when we see it.

I sometimes stick a character's name into a snipet of dialogue to clarify that the other one is speaking

I do that too...however, a nasty habit I have it ending up writing scenes with three characters, which makes for some sticky situations clarity-wise. Dialogue attribution, names, actions...ick.

But I get through it, I think.

Clarity and brevity are the names of the game here

Who decided that whisper is allowed?

Ray did.

How did they come up with the number three for how many are allowed afterwards?

Ask Ray.

What happens if someone uses four?

Ray deep-sixes them.

What happens if someone uses four and the publisher goes ahead and publishes it anyway?

The world explodes.
 

RobJ

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It sounds bad. That's what happens
What if it doesn't sound bad? Can it ever not sound bad?

What other words are not allowed? Is there a list? How about screams? Or shouts? Or mutters? Are they legit? Is there a limit on how many times they can be used afterwards?

Does anyone here know?

I'm still interested to know who made the decision that whispered is allowed. I'd like to get the full list. I'd like to speak to them.

Cheers,
Rob
 
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Rob.

You can whisper words.

You cannot, in any known universe, hiss words that contain no S-sounds.

Screams, shouts and mutters are possible but what we're saying is, make the dialogue do the work. Too many adverbs and dialogue tags, and they become conspicuous.

If that happens, you collapse the suspension of disbelief, you pull your reader out of the story and you look like an amateur.
 

Cyia

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What if it doesn't sound bad? Can it ever not sound bad?

Not that I've ever read.

What other words are not allowed? Is there a list? How about screams? Or shouts? Or mutters? Are they legit? Is there a limit on how many times they can be used afterwards?

Use your brain. Any reader should be able to tell what flows and what doesn't.

"I'm in here!" John shouted. <--- we may need to know John is talking, but the exclamation point already told us he was shouting.

"Where?" Jane whispered. <-- if one charrie is shouting and another is whispering, then YES, tell us she's whispering.

"The kitchen!" <-- Jane just spoke, so it's John's turn. You don't have to tell us this. He's still shouting, so we still use "!"

"You could have just told me that." Jane mumbled. <--- o..k.. she was whispering, now she's mumbling. This makes no sense without some action inbetween to tell us why. Did she shove some crackers in her mouth or something?
 

The Lonely One

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You can't hiss words that don't have s, z, soft c, or th in them. You just can't.

"Don't!" she hissed might well wind up as one of those thingies at the bottom of New Yorker articles, or in Private Eye: "HISSES WE DOUBT WERE EVER HISSED."

Don't go there.

I'm in agreement with this. That's why I thought it only worked as separate actions, thus a capital letter for "She." You can hiss sans words, hissing with words like "don't" brings vomit to the mouth.
 

NeuroFizz

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What if it doesn't sound bad? Can it ever not sound bad?

What other words are not allowed? Is there a list? How about screams? Or shouts? Or mutters? Are they legit? Is there a limit on how many times they can be used afterwards?

Does anyone here know?

I'm still interested to know who made the decision that whispered is allowed. I'd like to get the full list. I'd like to speak to them.

Cheers,
Rob
Your point is well taken, Rob. There are no hard-and-fast rules. (You know damn well that no such lists exist.) Do what you want. But whether we want to admit it or not, there are contemporary conventions that are decided by the "academy" of writers, agents, editors and publishers. We are trying to explain what we've learned from this academy. Nothing more. And as with every set of conventions, evolution requires that some people go against those conventions. This evolution doesn't occur in a single lifetime (usually), though. Feel free to give it a go.
 
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RobJ

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Read Kazuo Ishiguro's novels. He's a master of brevity and no-one can say he's not a professional.
Here's some Ishiguro, for those who have never read any:

'Tommy,' I said, quite sternly.

He went on examining his shirt, then said grumpily: 'It's nothing to do with you anyway.'

But Tommy said brightly; 'The shirt's all right now. It all washed out.'

'Jackie's giraffes,' Ruth said with a laugh.

'She wasn't having you on, was she?' I asked Tommy.

'Why were you looking at the register?' Ruth asked quickly.

Cheers,
Rob
 
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Oh wow. That proves your point completely. :rolleyes:

Care to tell us over how many novels those words were spread, out of how many words in total, over a career of how many years?

I guess he really didn't deserve that Booker, then.

ETA: Sorry, that sounded snotty. But Rob, it sounds like you're picking at irrelevancies while not paying attention to what NeuroFizz, Maestro and I are saying. No one's calling for bannination of all adverbs or dialogue tags, but they should be used...*deep breath*...sparingly. Not to say your points are irrelevant, but you appear to have bypassed all the other points made and honed in on Ishiguro, which is not allowed, because he is the shit. So there.
 
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burgy61

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I'm finding this thread very interesting as I am trying to get better at writing dialogue. I don't use very many tags when I write it so let me give you an example of what it looks like most of the time. I appreciate your thoughts.
[FONT=&quot]I was surprised to see Lee Hardin standing there; ten years have passed since I last talked to him.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“May I come in?” he’s rocking back and forth and looking around wildly. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Sure come in Lee, what’s up?” He darts past me to the window and quickly closes the curtains. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Are you okay Lee, Is there something wrong?” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I think somebody is watching me… I don’t know… things have gotten weird lately.” His hand is shaking as it runs across his face.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Sit down; let me get you a drink.”
[/FONT]
 

RobJ

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Oh wow. That proves your point completely. :rolleyes:

Care to tell us over how many novels those words were spread, out of how many words in total, over a career of how many years?

I guess he really didn't deserve that Booker, then.
Oh, those were all from the same novel. Sure, he won the Booker.

Cheers,
Rob
 

RobJ

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I have a book in which the author uses shouted as a dialogue tag five times in a row. Is that allowed? Can we ask the people who make the decisions?

Cheers,
Rob
 
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Rob, it's not a matter of it being allowed. If it's published, of course it's allowed. Someone gave it a pass and put it to print.

Whether it's 'good', though, is a matter of opinion. It all has to be taken in the context of the surrounding novel.

One can over-egg the pudding. You don't want to get bogged down in tags and adverbs which distract from the important thing here - the story.
 

NeuroFizz

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You make the decisions, Rob. So, if that's what you want, the answer is yes. As for who makes the list of what is and what isn't appropriate, that's you again. I do it for me. Scarlet does it for Scarlet. I prefer to go by what the majority of people in the writing community say is the best way for our current fiction (which is what we've been discussing). If you have other information, go with it--it's strictly your decision and no one else's.
 

Cyia

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I like to play with the red pencil... FWIW:
Why is this in present tense?


[FONT=&quot]“May I come in?” he’s rocking back and forth and looking around wildly. [/FONT]
I'd definitely reword this: His body rocked in time to the sweeping motion of his eyes. (or something like that anyway.)

[FONT=&quot]“Sure come in Lee, what’s up?” He darts past me to the window and quickly closes the curtains. [/FONT]

You've got two "he" with no identifiers. Either that or they're the same "he" and you're mixing your dialogue. Either way, it's confusing.

[FONT=&quot]“Are you okay Lee, Is there something wrong?” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“I think somebody is watching me… I don’t know… things have gotten weird lately.” His hand is shaking as it runs across his face. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](all of your action starts with "he") Nervous hands scrubbed at his face.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Sit down; let me get you a drink.” [/FONT]
 

dpaterso

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Adding to which: every thread can't turn into a writing craft tutorial with free DVD and a year's subscription to "Ooh Aren't I Really Clever With Words" magazine.

Sometimes the best response is simply a nudge in the right direction that helps the OP on his/her way, rather than dissecting every suggestion and searching for counter-examples just for argument's sake.

-Derek
 

psaluka

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Thanks

I have to say (tee-hee) that this has been a FANTASTIC thread to read! I've gotten an incredible amount out of it, more than any other thread I've read in the short time I've been lurking and posting. I went back to my WIP and edited an entire chapter. It was great--like WIP vs. WIP on spinach...stronger, more vivid, and yes, more respectful of the reader's IQ. Maybe a good exercise for anyone on the fence. Anyway, thanks--I am so grateful that you all beat the heck out of the issue. There wasn't a single post I didn't get something out of--good or bad.
 

Jerry B. Flory

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I respectfully disagree.
The thread doesn't exist for the sole benefit of the OP.
In our interactions, conflicts and subsequent debates, the threads also prove a fertile ground of inspiration. Bouncing our ideas and opinions off each other opens us up to new ideas and avenues to pursue in our own writing.

It's also something of a compliment to the OP who initiated a thread with a question or concept that sparked the interest of so many different objective views.
If AW existed merely to answer a question and nudge people in the right way wouldn't it be a huge store of FAQs instead of all this challenging interaction?
 
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