Help with slightly weird feedback

It is my strong opinion that a reader's only function is to tell you how they reacted to your work - bored, confused, moved, blown-away - whatever - and that it is outside the scope of the reader feedback role to tell the writer what to write. That's what I have to offer you as a response to your questions.

Layla Nahar said:

it is outside the scope of the reader feedback role to tell the writer what to write.

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I have to agree. Maybe you need to tell this particular critique partner that it isn't going to work out.

I think it's really easy for new writers to get carried away when critiquing others, and start saying things along the lines of the feedback you've gotten. Odds are, they still have their own novels close to the front of their mind, and it's recoloring everything else they read, IE, "The biggest problem with this novel is that it's not like my novel, which I love as dearly as my firstborn child, and like my firstborn, is the smartest, prettiest thing ever."

Take the feedback that resonates with you, and discard the rest. (Still thank the person profusely and politely for their time and effort though!)

That kind of feedback sounds fine to me.

If you disagree with the feedback, then don't implement it. It's not a big deal. In the end, you're the only person who can judge whether the feedback was useful or not.

TheAmir said:

In a one-chapter critique, (I was doing a one-for-one with this person), I had someone mention that they wanted several things that I'm finding questionable. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm not - so I thought I'd ask here before I make any changes (or don't make changes) to anything.

1) The reader wanted the character described out (physically) in full before the 1000 word mark, including facial features, height, and exact manner of dress. I do make brief mention of key features (black hair whipping in the wind, Threk-hide duster and a few pieces of his gear he's using), but given the content of the scene, I'm not sure where or why a full description of this character (it is third person POV) would be needed. You do get a better impression of this character's exact appearance in another chapter (different POV). I guess I'm just not sure if I should try to slide this in or if it would be unneeded.

2) He wants me to name this character's mule, stating "everyone loves an animal to have a name". While I understand this request, my MC just is -not- the type to name animals. He simply calls her "Molly" when he addresses her specifically (molly being the term for female mule). Should I go ahead and break character to give this mule a name or stick with my MC not being the type to give her a name?

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All of this sounds like personal opinion, that since you disagree with it just blow it off.

3) Changes in dialogue. This one was what really sort of nagged at me. I feel I know this POV character very well and know what he would say/think in certain situations. While I'd be fine with and appreciate input on parts where dialogue seems clunky, I'm not sure I want to actually make the -specific- dialogue changes that this reader is suggesting. This POV swears a lot when he's angry, for example. The reader didn't like that and thought I should nix the swearing or make up original swear words. Another suggestion he had: my character has a private thought: What a mess. The reader wants it to be: Oh no, what did "name" get himself into this time? ... but I just don't see the character having such a quaint thought as that.

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This sound a bit more constructive, but again, personal opinion. Personally, I'm fine with swearing, but when it's just "Fuck, shit, cunt" a hundred times, that can get annoying. If you're working in the SFF realm, creative swearing appropriate to the character can be a nice difference. With the private thought, sometimes expanding the thought can help the reader better understand the situation--you'd have to have more reasoning to understand why the critic believes this.


Remember: You don't have to agree with the critic, and you can just ignore some advice--especially direct suggestions. The critic should be trying to gear their criticism towards what you wish to do, and if they don't match what you want, just overlook them. They're never going to match perfectly to your tastes. Out of my long-time critics, only a few get a 50% hit rate with me.

Feel free to both question the critic so they can expand their thoughts (though, not argumentatively). Try to understand them, try to see how they are seeing it--even though you might disagree with them.

You know your character and your writing voice the best. Don't let someone else change your voice. Like Viridian said, take what you feel is helpful and/or useful and discard the rest (with many thank-you's). If you want feedback on specific points of your story such as grammar, syntax, flow etc., then specify that in the beginning or the request for a critique (or for the next chapter to be critiqued).

As far as what issues your critiquer had, I would be fine with "Molly" because that is a title enough, especially if your MC isn't big on naming animals. Cussing, I could take it or leave it because that's an author's choice. Not my place to say, unless it's like what Osulagh explained. If you're writing a book for pre-teens or younger, then the issue of cussing would definitely be applicable (but I'm assuming you aren't).

It's good to have outside opinions but take everything with a grain of salt. You're doing just fine!

TheAmir said:

2) He wants me to name this character's mule, stating "everyone loves an animal to have a name". While I understand this request, my MC just is -not- the type to name animals. He simply calls her "Molly" when he addresses her specifically (molly being the term for female mule). Should I go ahead and break character to give this mule a name or stick with my MC not being the type to give her a name?

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I have a story where people don't name the animals they're mentally bonded to, the animals on which their lives depend. Because the people are trained by their guild to see the animals as tools which might have to be expended some day. "Everyone loves an animal to have a name" is, as Osulagh said, a personal opinion, and not one I agree with.

The reader didn't like that and thought I should nix the swearing or make up original swear words.

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Good Bad Language

As for making up original swear words, sometimes that works for readers, and sometimes it doesn't:

Radford also ill-advisedly comes up with an all-purpose swear-word for her characters, and it completely throws you out of any mythic sense you might be experiencing when someone inanely blurts out "S'murgh you!"

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Personally, I figure that if my character says "bread" when he means bread, he's not going to say "hargh" when he means shit.

It's likely that this reader's tastes don't mesh with your story, that's all. By all means, think about the feedback, and see if there's anything good you can get out of it, but you don't have to implement suggestions you don't agree with.

TheAmir said:

In a one-chapter critique, (I was doing a one-for-one with this person), I had someone mention that they wanted several things that I'm finding questionable. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm not - so I thought I'd ask here before I make any changes (or don't make changes) to anything.

1) The reader wanted the character described out (physically) in full before the 1000 word mark, including facial features, height, and exact manner of dress. I do make brief mention of key features (black hair whipping in the wind, Threk-hide duster and a few pieces of his gear he's using), but given the content of the scene, I'm not sure where or why a full description of this character (it is third person POV) would be needed. You do get a better impression of this character's exact appearance in another chapter (different POV). I guess I'm just not sure if I should try to slide this in or if it would be unneeded.

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This sounds like your reader's preference. Maybe he or she is used to reading novels or stories written with an external/omniscient narrator who is free to describe how a character looks from without. If you are telling the story from a character-derived viewpoint (limited third or first) it would be intrusive to spend time describing how your character looks, unless the character has a legitimate reason to be thinking about it. You certainly can and should drop hints in the narrative, of course (like if he's short, he has to crane his neck to look up at other people, or he might have to stand on tip toes to reach someone, or everyone is staring at his read hair, or the tattoo on his face, or his patched and threadbare clothes, or...)

2) He wants me to name this character's mule, stating "everyone loves an animal to have a name". While I understand this request, my MC just is -not- the type to name animals. He simply calls her "Molly" when he addresses her specifically (molly being the term for female mule). Should I go ahead and break character to give this mule a name or stick with my MC not being the type to give her a name?

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Totally depends on your character and his attitude about his mule. How someone thinks about and treats a working animal says lots about him. I knew a lady who named every single cat she ever had "Kitty." She was attached to them, but for some reason, that's just how she rolled.

Again, the reader has feelings about this, but that doesn't mean every possible reader would agree with them. It's possible, of course, that there's something inconsistent about the character and his feelings about the animal, and that's what the reader is responding to.

3) Changes in dialogue. This one was what really sort of nagged at me. I feel I know this POV character very well and know what he would say/think in certain situations. While I'd be fine with and appreciate input on parts where dialogue seems clunky, I'm not sure I want to actually make the -specific- dialogue changes that this reader is suggesting. This POV swears a lot when he's angry, for example. The reader didn't like that and thought I should nix the swearing or make up original swear words.

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That's just their personal preference. So long as your character's use of words is appropriate to the personality, character voice, culture and setting (i.e., he's not saying "Jesus H. Christ" in a world without Christianity or calling someone a bastard as an insult in a culture where paternity is no big deal), then chalk it up to opinion. There are a kajillion threads here on AW about how to approach swearing in fantasy (and fiction in general) and it's one of those things people will never agree on. It's not really an issue, unless you're writing for the religious/inspirational market, younger kids, or some other market demographic that dislikes swearing.

Another suggestion he had: my character has a private thought: What a mess. The reader wants it to be: Oh no, what did "name" get himself into this time? ... but I just don't see the character having such a quaint thought as that.

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Another stylistic thing too. I much prefer the "character voice throughout the third person narrative" approach over first-person present italicized thoughts myself, but the latter are used successfully by a number of published writers. I think they can become irritating if overused or used inconsistently. But:

She picked up the mess. What was I thinking.

vs.

She picked up the mess. What had she been thinking?

Really your call.

Just my input. I'd suggest you get feedback from more than one reader before making any substantial changes to your narrative style, pov, characterization or voice. Because these criticisms sound like they're more about these things than about the story or writing itself. Now if you're hearing the same thing (or variants thereof) over and over from readers, then consider that something isn't working. But consider that Gaiman famously said that if readers say there's a problem with something you've written, they're probably right, but if they tell you exactly what it is or how to fix it, they're probably wrong.

I look at beta reading as a giant brainstorming session. I usually tell beta readers ahead of time that I'm going to give them everything I can think of that can possibly make their book better. That's my job.

Then they need to sort through it and decide what they can use. That's their job.

There are certainly no hard feelings for not implementing any of my changes. But critting is a lot of work, and I don't want to make it any longer by second-guessing.

And there's no problem with not agreeing with crit. I don't blow it off without an effort - if they wrote it, it's certainly worth careful consideration. And OP, that sounds like what you're doing. You've considered it carefully and decided it wasn't for you. No problem. Maybe the two of you just aren't in each other's target audiences. Hopefully, there'll still be something you can use from the crit so it was a worthwhile use of time.

But I've never blindly taken every single suggestion. It's still my book. Same for you. If/when you get it published, it'll be your name on the cover.

But sometimes, crit can put me in second-guessing purgatory for a while. I keep hoping that as I improve and gain confidence, that won't happen so much.

In all honesty, that sounds to me like the reader doesn't understand your style of writing. There's nothing wrong with not describing your character in detail. I actually despise long descriptions of character's appearance and clothing. There's nothing wrong with having an animal in your story that has no name. I think that says something about your character that he doesn't name his "companion". There's nothing wrong with the way you wrote thoughts. So all of that advice is just opinions/preference.

You have every right to discard advice that doesn't suit you. If I was that uncomfortable with the advice I got from a beta, I would just say that it's not a match made in heaven and we should part ways.

As a beta, I try to keep in mind that the book is not written by me so it won't follow my "rules". What I do try to point out: things that are unclear, should be expanded, should be shorter and added to the previous chapter (especially if the writer says that they think this might be the case and I agree), are plot holes etc. Preference is something I'm very careful with. I do share preferences from time to time as well, but only if it fits the overall tone of the story.

I don't know. This just sounds like the reader wants to give advice so badly that they'll find anything to say just to give it. I've had beta readers like that, and it's never worked. What I need is to know exactly when it doesn't work if it doesn't, or even a vague: Oh dear, there's something about this part that is very confusing, and then I can start poking at it to figure out the wrongness. This kind of advice would just piss me off. Sorry.

I like my critters to say anything and everything they think when critiquing my work. I never know what someone may notice that I didn't think of so I never put any restrictions what I can be told. It looks to me like this critiquer gave it a good, honest effort, which imo is all someone can ask for.

Now, it's completely up to you to pick which, if any, of the suggestions you want to use. I usually only use a small percentage of suggestions I get. I'd just thank the critiquer, then only make the suggested changes that you definitely agree with. If none of them stand out to you as "Oh yeah, great idea," then don't use any of them.

When in doubt, leave it the way you had it.

Sounds to me like someone who can feel when something's off but can't really explain what it is. I get that feeling when I'm critiquing sometimes, too:

The person I'm critting says something like, "So, what's wrong with it?"
I say something like "Well, the voice sounds kinda old for the character's age, for one."
Them: "Okay, how do I fix it?"
Me: "Uh. Um. ???" Pause. "Maybe mention Justin Bieber a few times???"

I've noticed some newer critters don't wait for you to ask -- they go right to the "here's how you fix it" part.

I got similar feedback on a chapter of mine, which was very close to the end and the reader hadn't read any of the preceding story. One of their comments was that a particular POV character's voice seemed very modern, and he wanted me to change some of his cusses to more 'authentic sounding' language with a sort of pseudo olden timey vibe. In trying to explain that I wanted his speech to feel contemporary, we got into a hot debate over stylistic preferences in historical fiction that really wasn't productive, because all it confirmed was that our preferences are poles apart. But that's the thing; sometimes your betas just don't get what your stylistic choices are, or understand that they're not only deliberate, but just as valid as their own. When you get a beta like that, someone who can't see past your preferences and wants to change them all to suit their own, the best thing you can do is just thank them and then discard their suggestions.

And whatever you do, don't get into a fight with them over it (especially when it's your cousin, and you actually want to be able to talk to them ever again)

TheAmir said:

On the fence. Not sure what to do. Do I take the suggestions or stick with my guns on the specifics here?

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Listen to your instincts. Those don't sound like helpful suggestions; in fact, the reader is wanting you to change the story to fit his or her own preconceived notions, and that rarely a good idea. I think this critiquer is not a good one for your story.

It's up to you whether or not you will accept or reject feedback but the person giving the crit has told you how it makes them feel as a reader and why - that's pretty good feedback. I would love a reader to give me detailed feedback like this.

The thing the reviewer seems to be trying to say politely is that they are struggling to connect with and understand your character. They've specified why.

You have to decide if she has a point or if she is just struggling to connect. A reader may not give the right reason for something but often they do highlight a problem and I'd suggest seriously looking at your character and find out if there is a reason they are difficult to connect to. Part of me thinks point B has the potential to being the biggest clue here.

TheAmir said:

1) The reader wanted the character described out (physically) in full before the 1000 word mark, including facial features, height, and exact manner of dress. I do make brief mention of key features (black hair whipping in the wind, Threk-hide duster and a few pieces of his gear he's using), but given the content of the scene, I'm not sure where or why a full description of this character (it is third person POV) would be needed. You do get a better impression of this character's exact appearance in another chapter (different POV). I guess I'm just not sure if I should try to slide this in or if it would be unneeded.

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If you are going to describe a character then I'd agree with them - it you are not then it doesn't matter. As a reader, there's nothing worse than picturing a character and then the writer gives you information contrary to that.

2) He wants me to name this character's mule, stating "everyone loves an animal to have a name". While I understand this request, my MC just is -not- the type to name animals. He simply calls her "Molly" when he addresses her specifically (molly being the term for female mule). Should I go ahead and break character to give this mule a name or stick with my MC not being the type to give her a name?

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Most people do name their animals but if you have a reason for it keep it as is. I would find it odd though.

3) Changes in dialogue. This one was what really sort of nagged at me. I feel I know this POV character very well and know what he would say/think in certain situations. While I'd be fine with and appreciate input on parts where dialogue seems clunky, I'm not sure I want to actually make the -specific- dialogue changes that this reader is suggesting. This POV swears a lot when he's angry, for example. The reader didn't like that and thought I should nix the swearing or make up original swear words. Another suggestion he had: my character has a private thought: What a mess. The reader wants it to be: Oh no, what did "name" get himself into this time? ... but I just don't see the character having such a quaint thought as that.

On the fence. Not sure what to do. Do I take the suggestions or stick with my guns on the specifics here?

Help.

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I've written an emotive piece recently and had complaints about swearing - I'm going to ignore them.

You have to have the confidence to stick to your guns when you know you're right. In this case I'd say she's making fairly natural dialogue seem unnatural. However, are you using swear words that are Earth and time specific? Or feel out of place in your world? If the latter is the point she is trying to make it might be worth listening to.

If you're going to describe the character then I think do it quickly if not don't. Level of description doesn't bother what does is being told my blond haired blue eyed beefcake is a little weedy dark haired chap with a moustache. My suggestion would be that lack of description in the first chapter isn't the problem - it's the description later. But this is your decision. Personally, I'd put the book down at that point because as a visual reader you've ruined it for me.

One of the most helpful pieces of advice when it came to taking critique I ever got was "You are not going to be stood in the bookshop whispering in the ear of the person checking out the first few pages."

The one thing this feedback has told you is some of it is frustrating this reader - are they right to be frustrated?

Most non experienced critter/writers are experienced readers. So they may get something is off but not be able to tell you exactly why.

Ultimately, this is your decision but had I received it I'd be rereading it with an eye as to why the reader might be frustrated. (I may then choose to reject it).

Beta readers give what input they have to give. You are not required to make changes accordingly.

On point 1: Some readers don't want description at all. Me, I want a little description, and I want it early. But to me (see how subjective this all is), black hair whipping and a Threk-hide duster gives me a picture of a grit and brawn guy, my favorite kind. If he isn't that, maybe you do need a bit more to help me see him more clearly.

On point 2: If he's not the kind of man who names animals, then he's not, and that's that. Your beta obviously likes animals and people who name them. Sometimes I give a (fictional) horse a name, but only for expediency's sake. It's your book, name the mule or don't.

On point 3: You have to be true to your character or . . . or . . . all is lost. Remember, this was a one-chapter critique. Your beta does not know your character. Only you know him. Only you know what he would say, how he would say it, what he would think.

As for the swearing. With my first book, one beta objected to the swearing, saying it showed poor writing. The next beta called the swearing mondo-nifty. I'm going with mondo-nifty.

Betas are trying to help with the tools they have. They make suggestions, not demands, and you get to choose.

Good luck.

translating reader feedback

There's an old saying. When a reader feels there something wrong they're usually right, but when the tell you how to fix it, they're usually wrong.

When I'm critiquing, I frequently give suggestions, knowing full well they won't be used, but they may make my point clearer and start the brainstorming process for the author.

Complaint: I didn't connect with the MC early on.
Suggestion: Some more description and interaction with other characters might help.

Inexperienced critiquers may jump straight to the suggestion, in which case you have to figure out the root complaint and come up with your own fix.

Do you consider your beta to be a valid representation of your target audience? If you're writing romance, and she loves romance, she might be correct in wanting a physical description--that may be what the genre requires. But if you're writing hard core SciFi, maybe she's applying the standards of the wrong genre.

My general rule: people who ask me to make small, trivial and ultimately nonsensical changes (like naming a mule) are surface-level thinkers and are not the type of people I want to critique my work.

In this case, I'd say your reader's suggestions sound more like his style (what he wants) than what you're going for. If your character wouldn't name his mule, don't name the mule. I don't see the character you're describing (desert lean with copper skin and a knife) saying "Oh no!" That's something my mom would say.