Anyone Else Mix Narrative Modes?

I'm not a fan. As a reader, I find it extremely difficult to follow. As a writer, I haven't yet found a good reason to do it. I have alternating past/present tense chapters in my WIP, but not within the same chapter (and definitely not in the same scene).

What have you found to be the benefit to your work?

There'd have to be good reasoning behind why the narrative changes.

For example, in my stories, I tend to focus on third limited 95% of the time, but at certain moments I like to pull away from the character to get a objective view of them (omni, without strong voice), or I might transition without scene breaks, or I might insert first person parts to cover lengthy journal entries.

Though I find this to be rather light changes as opposed to some more experimental narratology writers like John Dos Passos.

I have a short story which might one day become a novella or a prologue for book 4 in a series, once I figure out what the heck I'm supposed to do with it. It's a romantic tragedy with horror elements, and while it originally had one POV in third-past, I've since added a second POV in first-present. She's younger, livelier, more involved with the present, so the tense choice suits her well, I think. It made the whole thing so much more intense and moody to me. The one person I've had look at it so far had many helpful things to say, but they didn't mention problems with the narrative modes at all, and they seemed really into the characters and the unfolding drama.

I probably need a larger sample size to see if it's working as well I hope. And FWIW, I do have clear scenes breaks and POV switches.

I think if you can somehow convey that you are in control of the structure, using mad esoteric writerly skillz, people can get comfortable with just about any amount of wackiness.

My third novel is mostly first-person, but there are sections in which other characters recount their off-camera adventures. I wrote those in third person. I put section breaks around them, to let the reader know what was going on.

I've read some novels that start a chapter or scene in something that feels omniscient, or external to the main/pov character, then zooms in more closely. Narrative depth isn't all or nothing in a scene, but zipping back and forth between omniscient and limited third throughout would probably bug me.

Though I'd have to see what you meant, or perhaps see an example of a writer you thought did the technique you're talking about successfully.

Len Deighton's Harry Palmer books, James Patterson's Alex Cross books--1st person for the titular character, 3rd for everyone else. Works fine. Bestselling thrillers.
King's Cujo--no chapters. Works fine. Terry Pratchett too.
Do it well--it works.

Wait? Are you talking about different povs between scenes, like omniscient in some and limited third in others? That could probably work just fine. Moving back and forth between limited third and omniscient in the same scene, though? That sounds perilously close to what's usually referred to as head hopping.

There are ways to "pass" the pov or focus without a scene change in limited third, however. I don't think they're used as often as they once were.

Again, it's hard to say for sure without reading a sample, though.

You can do all those things in your book, but PLEASE USE CHAPTER/SCENE BREAKS. Why would you want to risk confusing your readers? The way you're describing it, it sounds like you suddenly go from first to third person with no warning.

Shirokirie said:

A number of things. I could go on to list them, but it'd be a laundry list, imho.

The biggest benefit I've found is continuity of the story overall. I don't suppose I'll explain all that. I'm just glad it's working. For me.

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I'd really be interested to know what they are And especially how they help you with continuity.

To me, as a reader, this just plain sounds like a mess. I like focus in a narrative.

caw

I've been wrestling with this problem in my WIP all day.

I grew up reading a huge amount of omni so I'm somewhat biased in favour of it simply because it feels natural. I know how to use POV, but I have to make sure I don't slip up on instinct.

The scene giving me worries today is one with plot events happening quickly in several places, and I'm using strict chronological progression to keep them straight for the reader. I sacrificed a bit of POV faithfulness to keep causality easy to follow. Now my WIP is omni pretty consistently, though I do go in and out from true omni to limited 3rd, usually over a scene break. This shift was more from one limited to more of a narrator and then in to another character. One of the shifts has a scene break. To use a scene break in the other would have wrecked the plot transition that already exists.

It can be done. Instead of using myself as an example, I'll raise a Guy Gavriel Kay. It took me several reads of Fionavar to even notice all the tricks he uses with POV. Some of them are downright audacious. There's a scene in The Lions of Al-Rassan, the scene where Almalik I is poisoned, where he uses several POVs (including one collectivist one), several tenses, and breaks chronology a bit all in the span of about three pages, without scene breaks. And it WORKS.

Headhopping can be jarring. Done at the right time, with enough propulsion and compensation in other areas, it won't be. I think it's a risk, but it's one I'm willing to take and I've certainly seen it pay off.

I've read novels that have some pov characters in limited third and others in first person, but there are always scene or chapter breaks in between. I've read writers who start scenes in a more distant third person, omniscient style, but zooming in after the first paragraph establishes the scene.

The only way to tell whether or not what you're doing works is to run it past some critting buddies, see if it confuses them. If you're not part of a critting group, it might be good to take a few of your scenes to SYW and see how people react to it.

I think it would be a hard sell.

Shirokirie said:

1) So what do you think about mixing narrative modes/techniques? 2) Do you? And if you do, what exactly do you mix and why? 3) What effect does it have on your story(s) and readers?

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1) I think it's ambitious, and so I love it. Lately I've been thinking of a work by Jean Toomer, "Cane," and it mixes poetry, prose and (loosely) screenplay. It's an amazing thrilling work.

2) Yes. I have competing narrative voices within me, with distinctly different styles. One is more of a bare bones type with the occasional aside added, while the other, perhaps a better true storyteller, insists on commenting on almost everything.

I started a novel with the 2nd narrator (fully unsure I, or the reader, could make it all the way through with such a big voice), but in short order (chapter 7) he misplaced the protagonist, so narrator 1 stepped in. The original narrator took his medicine like a man — he went gambling and whoring, and was kind enough to report on it — so I think it worked out okay.

3) My two readers grew fond of the original voice and were disappointed when the story switched. Though they both commented favorably on the gambling and whoring part. I think they're my best two chapters.

4) p.s., 1st person does also push it's way into this story, and it freaked me out. You likely wouldn't believe how it came to be, so no point mentioning that. Other than to say, it has to stay. The story insists.

p.p.s., I've got a short story that's told through the construct of a Johari window. I'm quite smitten with the concept and its application as a storytelling device. I'll probably expand the story into a novel. Or maybe I'll rearrange the aforementioned work in progress, see if I can squeeze it into a window.

Mix it up. Make it work. Have great success.

Though I haven't read it recently, I recall "A Visit from the Goon Squad" did a lot with the way it told the story, one chapter to the next. Each character was in a very different place in the timeline as well.

Thinking about it, they might all be some form of first person, but then it moves into a power point.

On the other hand, those shifts were (I think) all on chapter breaks.

Either way, the storytelling/format made it pretty freaking cool, as far as I'm concerned.

rwm4768 said:

You can do all those things in your book, but PLEASE USE CHAPTER/SCENE BREAKS. Why would you want to risk confusing your readers? The way you're describing it, it sounds like you suddenly go from first to third person with no warning.

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This. If you don't make clean breaks, you risk really alienating your readers for a plethora of reasons. If you are just writing this for yourself, then I'd say sky is the limit. But if you plan to submit this--I don't know an agent or publisher in their right minds who would accept a manuscript that randomly switches between first and third like that. It would likely be read as coming from someone who simply doesn't understand how these things work. In the same sense as someone turning in a block of text 5 pages long without paragraphs or quotations around dialogue.

Moving in and out in 3rd is another thing altogether and is generally expected/accepted.

I did it the other day and thought, wow. Loved it. Went from third to first POV from the dog's POV in the course of a sentence and kept going. And I kept thinking, is this okay?

Did it anyway.

Gringa

Even with the transitions happening at a break, I would find it, at best, very annoying to have these kinds of narrative changes. It changes how I process the story and would force me to stop, even if only for a moment, and readjust my thinking.

If not done extremely well, by a writer with a lot of skill, it would come across as clumsy, confusing, and poorly written to me. I'd be more likely to think the author didn't understand how to define a narrator than it was some planned storytelling devise.

When it's done well, I love it. In my first novel (which I had to lay aside because I didn't yet have the skill to pull it off), there are two POV characters- one is first person past tense, the other third person present tense. To make it easier to follow, these POV's are always in separate chapters, and the chapter heading is the name of the character whose POV it is in.

I think it's a matter of what works for you and the story you're trying to tell. As long as you are clear and allow your readers to see what you are telling.

My current WIP has two narrators, both of whom speak in first person past-tense. I added the second viewpoint to more clearly emphasize to the reader how unreliable the first narrator is. I think that it's working so far. But each of the narrators have their own chapters. I think that it could become very confusing to switch the point of view without a heads up to the readers, whether that be through a chapter break or something else.

If you show in 90% of the story that you understand POV, then break it 2-3 times for obvious effect, it won't look like a mistake. (It may look more like a mistake if you do it once. A film prof of mine likes to say if you make a mistake in shooting, do it a few more times and call it art.)

I do think there should be some sort of break to help transition the reader.

But there are many breaks in narrative that are not scene or chapter breaks.