What is Worship?

Siri Kirpal · Jan 31, 2015

Neegh said:
And, what you do unto the least of them you do to me.

Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Yes.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Neegh · Jan 31, 2015

RichardGarfinkle said:
I guess what I'm getting at is that the actions of mindful caring and service are available to and can be practiced by anyone regardless of religion or philosophy...

One needs to be a member of a particular religion in order to worship God?

Neegh · Jan 31, 2015

Siri Kirpal said:
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Sure, anyone can serve others with compassion, kindness, gratitude and consciousness without referencing God or gods. But it's still an act of worship for those of us that do make that reference.

The act will be the same; the state of mind may or may not be the same; but the reference will be different.

I actually sometimes think that service is the way atheists get in the human need to worship, to go beyond the self to the larger community. But since I'm not an atheist, my thoughts on the topic are moot.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

*Pins a gold star on Siri's lapel.

Ken · Jan 31, 2015

Neegh said:
One needs to be a member of a particular religion in order to worship God?

Nah. Believe he was just saying that if you want to worship in that way that resource is available. Not to say you can't on your own if you like.

I have to say though from personal experience I am not entirely sure of that. I have been pretty been given the bum's rush from a number of religious institutions I dared to enter. The worst was when a church let me stay under close guard. Congregants took turns! Eventually the priest caught on to the deal and smiled knowingly. So it turned out okay

Neegh · Jan 31, 2015

RichardGarfinkle said:
Siri, you're getting near my region of confusion. There is a stereotype of atheists as self-centered and selfish, but we seem to have the same proportion of selfish/unselfish and anti-selfishness practices as anyone else. And many of us do a lot of thinking / acting beyond the self with mindfulness for others and for humanity and the world.

The question becomes is it the reference that makes the worship?

Say, a child is suddenly in danger. You impulsively rush in a save the child but, lose your life in the doing. That is brave and a wonderful display of your devotion to humanity. Now say, a child is in danger and you know that you can save the child but, you also know it will surely be your end if you did. And you decide to save the child: that is an act of devotion on a whole other level.

RichardGarfinkle · Jan 31, 2015

Neegh said:
Say, a child is suddenly in danger. You impulsively rush in a save the child but, lose your life in the doing. That is brave and a wonderful display of your devotion to humanity. Now say, a child is in danger and you know that you can save the child but, you also know it will surely be your end if you did. And you decide to save the child: that is an act of devotion on a whole other level.

That's a mindful choice, and yeah it's a whole other level, but it can still be devotion to humanity or simply the moral view that one should save children even at the cost of ones own life. I still don't see the worship in it.

Neegh · Jan 31, 2015

Okay, back to basics. Am I my brother's keeper?

In many ways this is the most basic question of the bible.

What say you...yes, or no?

RichardGarfinkle · Jan 31, 2015

Neegh said:
Okay, back to basics. Am I my brother's keeper?

In many ways this is the most basic question of the bible.

What say you...yes, or no?

Keeper, no. Friend, helper, and aid, yes. Should I be concerned if I can't find him? Yes. Should I be really concerned if I killed him and am then asking a smart-alec question in order to deflect suspicion when there are only three potential suspects? Extremely, yeah.

In other words, it's not Cain's devotion to God that was lacking, it was his human care for another.

Neegh · Jan 31, 2015

Okay (there is a lot there--but, I'll try to stay closer to the subject), tell me, why dose the Buddha wait?

kuwisdelu · Jan 31, 2015

Buddha waits because Buddha waits.

Neegh · Jan 31, 2015

There is a straight forward answer.

Underdawg47 · Jan 31, 2015

Quentin Nokov said:
The responsibility falls on those who have accepted God's covenant whether by being an Israelite (which I am) or by being baptized. When God came down and spoke to Moses all the commandments He wanted them to keep, the children of Israel were asked if they would agree to them. They were not forced.

Exodus 19:5-8 "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord."

Israel is called a harlot because they agreed to be God's people and had turned away from him. By chasing after other gods they committed spiritual fornication. Through much of the Bible you see the judgment of God falls on the house of Israel--rarely ever the Gentiles.

If you are neither an Israelite or baptized you are not under any oath or vow to uphold God's commandments. As I said in an earlier post, in the world tomorrow everyone will have a chance to know God. At that time everyone will be called God's people, and that's when you'll be expected to follow His laws, otherwise it's rebellion. However, I doubt people will rebel because Satan will be locked away and will not go out deceiving people or enticing them against God. Also, mankind will have SEEN God.

If you see God face-to-face and talk with Him won't you be more inclined to obey the things He asks of you?

This sounds a bit like ISIS right now. So once God takes over the world you either be expected to follow his laws, or else what? Sounds a bit like a dictatorship, with a supposedly benign dictator who has a thing against gay people, who at one time thought it was a good idea that we be stoned. I think I would prefer to live under a democratic republic.

RichardGarfinkle · Jan 31, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
Buddha waits because Buddha waits.

The Tao that can be taught is not the eternal Tao.
the name that can be named is not the eternal Name.

Neegh · Feb 1, 2015

The Buddha awaits all of humanity to fallow him into enlightenment.

worship is an act of recognizing something we value as being worthy of holding close to our hearts. (worth-ship).

RichardGarfinkle · Feb 1, 2015

Neegh said:
The Buddha awaits all of humanity to fallow him into enlightenment.

worship is an act of recognizing something we value as being worthy of holding close to our hearts. (worth-ship).

So is there a distinction then between worship and love?

RichardGarfinkle · Feb 1, 2015

Mod Note:
My apologies everyone, but I'm afraid we'll all need to dial back aspects of some of the posting in this thread. Please read this note carefully.

Religion and philosophy are by their nature personal to the people who follow them. Threads such as this one allow people to explain in part what appeals to them about the ways they are following. That's just fine. But to be RYFW such statements cannot contain anything about how bad not following that way is.

It is also just fine to respond to those statements with why another person's ways do not work for the poster. In order to be RYFW such statements need to not be dismissive of those who do follow the specified way.

These two principles are not as easy to follow as it might appear because it is common in many religions and philosophies to disparage others. Indeed, such disparagement can be built into the standard rhetoric of the religion or philosophy, so that people can speak such without even noticing that they are doing it.

I'm not going to single out any particular posts on this point, nor am I going to require edits of previous posts, but I am going to insist on following these principles from now on.

I urge everyone to look over what they've posted and see if they should edit previous posts themselves.

Neegh · Feb 1, 2015

RichardGarfinkle said:
So is there a distinction then between worship and love?

Not in my way of thinking. But, perhaps I'm not seeing where your line of distinction is draw.

RichardGarfinkle · Feb 1, 2015

Neegh said:
Not in my way of thinking. But, perhaps I'm not seeing where your line of distinction is draw.

Remember, I don't understand worship. I'm trying to get a sense of it from people who do. Many of the examples I've been shown I see as belonging to other ways: mindfulness, compassion, love etc. But those who do have an idea of worship seem to be saying that it's more than these. I'm trying to understand what that more is.

Neegh · Feb 1, 2015

RichardGarfinkle said:
Remember, I don't understand worship. I'm trying to get a sense of it from people who do. Many of the examples I've been shown I see as belonging to other ways: mindfulness, compassion, love etc. But those who do have an idea of worship seem to be saying that it's more than these. I'm trying to understand what that more is.

I am saying that it is all of the above.

The universe is thought caught in an act of doing.

Siri Kirpal · Feb 1, 2015

Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Love (the long term variety, not sexual attraction) may be a form of worship, but I wouldn't say that worship was necessarily a form of love, although worship in its best sense would be filled with love.

Not sure that made sense.

I'll try again. Perhaps your confusion arises because there are three types of worship: ritual/ceremony, following whatever the code of conduct is, a natural outpouring. I do all three and for me they are all infused with the same sense, but that probably isn't true for everyone. All three may be filled with love. All three may be performed out of love. But I don't think that means worship itself is love. Just as all people are capable of love (even the ones that don't act it), but love is not usually the definition of a human being.

Hope some of this made sense.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

RichardGarfinkle · Feb 2, 2015

I think what I'm getting from all these helpful posts is that worship isn't a verb, it's an adverb.

I.e. That there is no action of worship but that actions can be done worshipfully. In the same sense that there is no action of care, but that actions can be done carefully or carelessly.

Does that seem right?

Neegh · Feb 2, 2015

RichardGarfinkle said:
I think what I'm getting from all these helpful posts is that worship isn't a verb, it's an adverb.

I.e. That there is no action of worship but that actions can be done worshipfully. In the same sense that there is no action of care, but that actions can be done carefully or carelessly.

Does that seem right?

Yes...I suppose. But then, worship is done--so maybe worship is one of those things that just Is.

Chris P · Feb 2, 2015

RichardGarfinkle said:
I think what I'm getting from all these helpful posts is that worship isn't a verb, it's an adverb.

I.e. That there is no action of worship but that actions can be done worshipfully. In the same sense that there is no action of care, but that actions can be done carefully or carelessly.

Does that seem right?

That's actually a really good parallel with "care." But care can be a verb as in "to care for someone." It's a verb that requires an object, and the verb implies a set of actions that are not set, unlike "to throw a ball." Just as to do something carefully means "to do it with the quality of care," to do something worshipfully means to do it with the quality of worship. You can't do anything to a ball throwfully. I'm sure there are terms for these verbs, I just don't know them.

"Worship" as a verb requires an object as well, and likewise implies a set of actions that aren't set specifically, but are done worshipfully toward the object of the worship. I'm not sure if/how that helps your understanding, but that might be another way to look at it.

Alpha Echo · Feb 2, 2015

Underdawg47 said:
But Christians do want something in return, they want eternal life after death and to live in heaven. God makes an afterlife conditional on that people worship him, and do all he says, and the alternative is eternal punishment.

If I believed in a god like that, then I would be kissing lots of ass myself,and living in fear. Personally, I don't want to live my life being afraid, and it is certainly hard for me to feel much love and sympathy to a being I fear so much. Having to walk on eggshells around a jealous being capable of such great wrath doesn't sound like my idea of paradise.

I would much rather have a god that says, Wow! Look what I made! instead of one that says, You must love and obey me or else...

I don't live my life in fear, and I don't feel that I'm kissing God's ass when I thank Him for every day of life he gives me. I think you're generalizing - I don't think most Christians who worship out of true love and respect for God, are thinking, "I'm going to thank you for my life so I can go to heaven." We're thinking instead, "I am so thankful for this life you've given me!"

(More below)

RichardGarfinkle said:
So is there a distinction then between worship and love?

To me...this is the short answer to "What is worship?" In a way...you could call it love.

I know that my God doesn't need me to bow down to him. I don't kneel by my bed at night. I don't even attend church on a regular basis. I don't fold my hands or bow my head (all the time).

Worshiping can include prayer of thanks, dancing and singing (I love singing in church if they have a good praise pastor!) - with others or alone.

To me, worshiping is one of two things - there's the praying and singing and dancing, and then there's this: living your life in selfless love.

To me, that means living your life as Jesus lived his - love for everyone, no judgement, helping others, reaching out to others, LOVING others.

When Habitat for Humanity builds another house, when you give your old clothes to Purple Heart, if you serve in a homeless shelter...or even if you just lend a smile to those you say hello to in any given day. To me, these are all acts that allow for Jesus and His love to shine through. And THAT is worshiping him.

I realize fully that many people who do these things don't believe in God. But I think, whether or not they intend to, they are still showing Jesus' selfless compassion for others. Whether or not they intend to, I think that pleases God.

RichardGarfinkle · Feb 2, 2015

Alpha Echo said:
I don't live my life in fear, and I don't feel that I'm kissing God's ass when I thank Him for every day of life he gives me. I think you're generalizing - I don't think most Christians who worship out of true love and respect for God, are thinking, "I'm going to thank you for my life so I can go to heaven." We're thinking instead, "I am so thankful for this life you've given me!"

(More below)

To me...this is the short answer to "What is worship?" In a way...you could call it love.

I know that my God doesn't need me to bow down to him. I don't kneel by my bed at night. I don't even attend church on a regular basis. I don't fold my hands or bow my head (all the time).

Worshiping can include prayer of thanks, dancing and singing (I love singing in church if they have a good praise pastor!) - with others or alone.

To me, worshiping is one of two things - there's the praying and singing and dancing, and then there's this: living your life in selfless love.

To me, that means living your life as Jesus lived his - love for everyone, no judgement, helping others, reaching out to others, LOVING others.

When Habitat for Humanity builds another house, when you give your old clothes to Purple Heart, if you serve in a homeless shelter...or even if you just lend a smile to those you say hello to in any given day. To me, these are all acts that allow for Jesus and His love to shine through. And THAT is worshiping him.

I realize fully that many people who do these things don't believe in God. But I think, whether or not they intend to, they are still showing Jesus' selfless compassion for others. Whether or not they intend to, I think that pleases God.

AE, I've heard this idea many times, mostly from people whose views I think are sensible. But a thought comes to me in the context of worship. How would you feel if someone substituted another god for Jesus in the above?

Would you object to the idea that all loving deeds are really in service of Krishna, or Freya, or Isis for example?

Or given the views of some of the nicer Satanist sects (of which there are some), would you object to the idea that it was really in service to Satan?

Or to move away from religion, would there be a priblem if someone said that worship of Jesus is how you clothe your fundamental human care for other humans?

What is Worship?

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process

Neegh

Neegh

Ken

Neegh

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

Neegh

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

Neegh

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

Neegh

Underdawg47

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

Neegh

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

Neegh

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

Neegh

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process

RichardGarfinkle

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Neegh

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

Alpha Echo

I should be writing.

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes