Different Approach

This is talking from a person-who-can-impress point of view.

If you speak to someone, with the knowledge of writing and impress them; you might want to attend conferences.

If you can attend conferences easily, why not? It would kill you.

But if you can't speak to someone easily, or the conference is out of your way; you might want to stick to the query approach. There are hundreds of variables that conflict with a query method. So you really need to hammer every dent out and catch a agent. It also takes years for a lot of writers to get an agent.

Colossus,

Even when you pitch at a conference and an edit asks to see your book, your work will be judged on its merits only. Agents at conferences will often ask for a query and/or a partial to be sent to them, which is your special "in." However, whether you pitch at a conference or send out your best query letter ever, your work will be accepted only if the agents thinks it will sell.

Susan's right, Colossus.

If your query has gathered only rejections, and no requests for fulls or partials, then your query needs work. If that's the case, you might find QLH very helpful.

I know looking for an agent can be dispiriting, but there aren't really any short cuts.

Hack and Susan are right on. There's no getting past having an interesting query and compelling writing. Even if you verbally pitch to an agent, your pitch will likely be pulled from your query, which may do nothing for you if the query letter isn't getting hits. I know of only a handful of people who went to conferences and signed with an agent they pitched to. Even then it was after the agent read their query and MS. It sounds like you need to work on your query, so post it in QLH and listen to the criticism. Good luck!

Colossus said:

Considering the number of RWR (rejections without read) that I have amassed, I thought it best to try another way to land a reputable agent. I spoke with a friend who said she signed hers after meeting him at a writer's conference, that query letters were just as unfruitful to her as well.

Is this a preferred approach? I mean, I'm honestly sick of the "query - rejection" method. It would be much easier to have a person's ear for a moment rather than trying to wade through filtering assistants via e-mail.

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OR, you could participate enough to get your 50 posts, and spend some time in QLH learning how to get a better query.....which I see Susan beat me to.

Colossus, I know you've been around for some time, but your other threads, and this one, sound a bit like you'd rather reinvent the wheel than do the work--here's the thing: reinventing the wheel is just as much work, and failure, as doing it right. Usually, moreso. And, as Susan pointed out, if you meet an agent, they're still gonna end the short meeting asking for a query. At that point, knowing you have a lovely smile and a great tie isn't going to get you over a failed query just because you went to a conference.

If you want to get requests, learn to write good queries. If you want to learn to write a good query, sub yours in QLH, listen to the folks there, and, JUST AS IMPORTANT, get off your backside and participate in dissecting and critiquing other queries. It might be work.....it might be a good 6 months of work, or four weeks, depending how much time you're willing to actually invest, but if you allow yourself to, you will learn how. And then you won't have to try to look for dubious shortcuts.

I share your frustration, Colossus, but I think the widespread message here is to suck it up and keep going. I get some helpful advice here on the forums but, truth be told, the biggest thing I get is the sense that this is really the way to do it: Write your best work and then prepare yourself to wait an indefinitely long time before anyone bothers even to tell you that she or he doesn't want it. There ought to be a better way to do it, but no one has invented it yet.

To be honest, I don't know any writers (either those I know personally, or those whose "agent stories" I know from reading interviews, etc) who got their agent based on a conference pitch. I'm sure it happens, but I don't think it's typical at all. If you have a referral, that's ideal. Barring that, most people seem to get their agents the old-fashioned way--by querying.

When you say "rejections without read," do you mean that you're not getting requests, or that you think agents are rejecting your query without reading it?

Also many agents still want a query when you sub requested materials from a conference request.

Colossus said:

Considering the number of RWR (rejections without read) that I have amassed, I thought it best to try another way to land a reputable agent. I spoke with a friend who said she signed hers after meeting him at a writer's conference, that query letters were just as unfruitful to her as well.

Is this a preferred approach? I mean, I'm honestly sick of the "query - rejection" method. It would be much easier to have a person's ear for a moment rather than trying to wade through filtering assistants via e-mail.

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Meeting agents at conferences might give you the chance to jump over the cold query hurdle and get your work directly in front them.

If there are good conferences within easy reach, I'd say go for it, because there are lots of benefits to attending conferences, even if you don't find an agent there.

But I'd also recommend getting your query letter workshopped so that you can continue to query by mail.

It took me a full YEAR of writing and rewriting my query to get one that garnered the WOW factor I wanted.

Get thee to QLH and don't call it good until it's a winner.

Re: conferences. They're not free, and a specific area is likely to have only a couple a year, at most. Not all conferences have pitch sessions with agents, and those that do are NOT guaranteed to result in a request. Very expensive way to do the exact same thing a query does.

Queries are damn hard. I know that if I had that opportunity to make a personal connection to an agent in any way, I'd chase it up, but the outcome of that can only be that they ask to see your query. You might get bumped up the list a bit, and so shorten your waiting time, but the query still has to be good enough for them to go 'hm...'

I think with agents, the rules of learning a language apply - in that there is no short way, no special method that will work better than the tried and tested 'work hard, for many years' approach.

I have not personally used the QLH here but it seems like a pretty awesome place. And I'm sure it's full of beautiful people, too

Colossus said:

Considering the number of RWR (rejections without read) that I have amassed, I thought it best to try another way to land a reputable agent. I spoke with a friend who said she signed hers after meeting him at a writer's conference, that query letters were just as unfruitful to her as well.

There is a better chance of having an agent actually read some of your writing, rather than just your query letter.

Is this a preferred approach? I mean, I'm honestly sick of the "query - rejection" method. It would be much easier to have a person's ear for a moment rather than trying to wade through filtering assistants via e-mail.

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Some writers do find agents at conferences, and I've talked to agents who routinely find about twenty percent of their writers this way. The worst that can happen is that you'll spend a bit of money with no good results.

There is a better chance of having an agent actually read your writing, rather than making a decision based solely on a query letter.

But the best bet is to learn how to write an irresistible query.

Here's the thing Colossus, people are being very careful with you because your posting history gives the impression that you don't seem like you are really putting in the effort to fix what might be wrong with your query and you want an easy solution to your agent dilemma. It seems like you have a bit of an attitude towards agents and queries, and that's a dangerous attitude to have. Because it isn't just about queries. It's about respecting agents.

That's why most people are saying that really, you just need to have a good query. Conference or not. And they are right. It is very likely, even if you do go to conference, you will still need a good solid query letter.

That being said. I do know of authors who got agents at conferences. And they didn't need a query letter. For example, Backspace has an author/agent conference where authors sit at table with an agent, the agent starts to read their work, and then they get it critiqued. I sent a friend of mine their way, and his work was so popular he had two agents offer.

Here is a link to their website: http://www.backspacewritersconference.com/

But here's the most important thing, the fear of most people posting in this thread is your ego. You might not actually have one, but you are coming across as having one. We are truly worried you are going to shoot yourself in the foot thinking you are an exception and more special than other authors out there, and that you ought to be given special treatment and be able to skip the annoying steps all other new authors have to take.

This attitude (if it does exist) will come across bold as brass in person, trust me. I have seen it. And it ain't pretty. In the end, agents want to work with someone they like and respect. And they can find such people who ALSO have fantastic books.

Now I realise all the above might come across as harsh, likely because I am being very blunt, and you might not be at all any of the above things. But your posting history has already given the impression of someone not interested in playing by the rules. So if my impression of you is wrong (about which I apologise) you should know that at least one person here is getting a slightly not so hot impression of you as an author.

And if one person is, possibly others are. And if you are planning on going to a conference to circumvent the query route, you need to be as delightful and seeming easy to work with as possible and not give off this impression at all.

Again, uber apologies if I am totally misinterpreting you, but I feel like being honest now about my observations might actually be helpful for you later in achieving your goal of representation. Truly.

But if not, you are free to get seriously annoyed by this post and ignore it . I am truly only writing any of this to help. If it isn't helpful, please, don't pay any attention to it.

I'll play devil's advocate and say that conferences can help, if the problem truly is the query letter and not the story, and if the author is good at making oral pitches.

The various chapters of RWA (and RWA national) have conferences with opportunities to pitch to editors and agents. In my experience, at least a partial manuscript will be requested virtually all of the time, assuming the manuscript fits the basic guidelines (word count, genre, no taboo subjects). Then, it's up to the pages to do their work.

I do know one person who'd been writing for several years, getting lots of rejections, and then hit just the right person at a conference and sold something like ten manuscripts through that connection. It was undoubtedly a combination of her having improved her writing over the years, plus connecting with just the right editor. But it does happen.

OTOH, this approach could get expensive, given the cost of conferences (in both time and money), and that there would likely only be the opportunity to pitch to a couple agents/editors at any given conference (compared to however many you could pitch to by mail in the same time frame).

I met my first agent at a conference, but we talked as much as we did there because he'd already requested my book off a query and pages.

My current agent requested the book off the query and pages. That said, I've just been to a conference and met with an editor about the first twenty pages of the manuscript (I'd signed up for it before signing with my agent). He's invited her to approach and pitch the book.

Conferences can be really great for networking and getting your work out there, but each time it's been helpful to me, it's been to build off a success I'd already garnered with my query.

You could also enter in some reputable contests to get feedback. If you final, the final judges are usually editors and agents. The down size is there's usually a $20 to $30 fee, but some writer's groups offer discounts on the entry fee if you're a member. The upside is even if you don't final, depending on the contest you can get some good feedback, and the contests are usually for the first chapter or pages so it bypasses the query letter.

Of course, if the agent/editor requests more you'll still have to send it in with a query letter.

To be honest, Colossus, I'm not sure you're worth my time in responding to. This isn't meant as disrespect; I'm just not sure you're hearing anything you don't want to hear.

Yes, I know authors who found agents in all sorts of situations. But I don't think you're going to do any better in person.

quicklime said:

Colossus, I know you've been around for some time, but your other threads, and this one, sound a bit like you'd rather reinvent the wheel than do the work--here's the thing: reinventing the wheel is just as much work, and failure, as doing it right. Usually, moreso. And, as Susan pointed out, if you meet an agent, they're still gonna end the short meeting asking for a query. At that point, knowing you have a lovely smile and a great tie isn't going to get you over a failed query just because you went to a conference.

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Toothpaste said:

Here's the thing Colossus, people are being very careful with you because your posting history gives the impression that you don't seem like you are really putting in the effort to fix what might be wrong with your query and you want an easy solution to your agent dilemma. It seems like you have a bit of an attitude towards agents and queries, and that's a dangerous attitude to have. Because it isn't just about queries. It's about respecting agents.

{snip}

But here's the most important thing, the fear of most people posting in this thread is your ego. You might not actually have one, but you are coming across as having one. We are truly worried you are going to shoot yourself in the foot thinking you are an exception and more special than other authors out there, and that you ought to be given special treatment and be able to skip the annoying steps all other new authors have to take.

This attitude (if it does exist) will come across bold as brass in person, trust me. I have seen it. And it ain't pretty. In the end, agents want to work with someone they like and respect. And they can find such people who ALSO have fantastic books.

Now I realise all the above might come across as harsh, likely because I am being very blunt, and you might not be at all any of the above things. But your posting history has already given the impression of someone not interested in playing by the rules. So if my impression of you is wrong (about which I apologise) you should know that at least one person here is getting a slightly not so hot impression of you as an author. (emphasis added)

And if one person is, possibly others are. Yep. And if you are planning on going to a conference to circumvent the query route, you need to be as delightful and seeming easy to work with as possible and not give off this impression at all.

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This is what I said to you back in March in another thread:

jclarkdawe said:

Without having seen the query, without know who the agent is, but knowing queries, I'd bet money he's right and you're wrong. Further, and again you don't intend to convey this message and based exclusively on this thread and what you've said; you're probably going to be a pain in the butt to work with. Further, and again based upon what you've said in this thread, your writing is probably not as good as you think it is.

{snip}

However, so far you've shown me that when presented with an incredible learning experience, rather then trying to figure out why the agent said your book is a "terrorism story," you'd prefer to show why people who don't agree with your view are wrong. And you're going to tell me what a reasonable person you are, but you know what? I won't buy it.

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I figure you're serious about wanting to be published. If you're not, save yourself a whole lot of aggravation and self-publish. But if you want to be commercially published, you're going to have to learn how to work within the rules.

Even if you meet and find an agent with your method, you're not going to be done with the problem in queries. You're going to have to present this book, and all your other books, in a two hundred word synopsis that excites the reader/hearer.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Colossus said:

Also, by RWR (Rejection without Read), I mean those rejections that have the auto-reply attached to them without a request for more material (some of which are sent almost as quickly as I can reload my inbox, which means it wasn't even looked at, but those are a vast minority).

Thanks

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Colossus, THIS is your problem, and this is why you're not getting anywhere. You've been told this over and over in multiple threads, but you're still convinced that agents aren't giving your query due consideration. That a swift rejection means they're giving you the runaround and for some unknown reason still allow query submissions when they have no intention of reading them. You slipped this concern in at the bottom of your post to act like it wasn't a priority, but the mere fact that you're STILL insisting it happens at all, after all this time, just shows that you are looking at this all wrong.

STOP.

Look, when I walk into a bookstore and pick any book at random off a shelf, it only takes me thirty seconds to read the back cover copy. And that thirty seconds is all the time I need to decide if the story interests me. That is EXACTLY what queries are for. An agent only needs the thirty seconds it takes to read two or three paragraphs to decide if there's a story worth pursuing to them.

Please. Listen to me. You are absolutely, one hundred percent NOT doing yourself any favors by deluding yourself with this idea that agents are just bouncing your query back to you without even giving it a shot. They have. I'm sorry. Your story is being given its fair shot. These rejections are rejections. Not invitations to please seek out the secret tunnel inside the publishing barricades and try again later.

All this question is, is yet another attempt by you to find a shortcut or work around the system. And you are shooting yourself in the foot. You don't get an agent by writing the perfect query. You don't get an agent by going to the right conference. You get an agent by writing a book they want to read, and hooking them with a query that tells them everything they need to know about it. That's it. That's the big secret. There is literally NOTHING more to it, and there is absolutely NO way around it.

Honestly? I don't even think QLH is going to help you. And I don't say that to be a dick, but because I believe that you have changed your query up, you've moved things around, you've stated things differently, but at the end of the day, my gut tells me you're getting all these rejections because your book, your STORY just isn't grabbing any of these agents. The number one cause of rejection for unpublished writers is quite frankly, a book or writing that just isn't ready for primetime yet. And I don't think yours is, because good books aren't written in a vacuum. As many times as you've ignored the answers people here have given you, I have to wonder how well your book has been beta-read, how much you listened to the suggestions of anyone you gave your MS to for critique.

The thing is, you've proven yourself to be someone who has problems 'hearing' responses that don't fit with what you want to hear. And a person who can't take criticism, can't adjust his writing or his approach based on informed feedback has no future in publishing. A writing career is chock-full of people who get paid to tell writers things they don't want to hear. Your future agent, your future editors, all of them are going to at some point tell you things you disagree with, and if you can't accept the people on this forum giving you the exact same answers time after time, how do you possibly hope to ever grow as a writer or advance up that career ladder?

If people on this forum are getting frustrated with you, its because we are honestly pained when someone seems determined to get in their own way. We're a community of people who've already been to every stage of the writing and publishing process and have a plethora of experiences to share and advise with. But we are not a magic eight ball that if you shake enough, phrasing your concern differently each time, will eventually conjure up the answer you're looking for and validate your secret hopes and fears.

Colossus said:

Also, by RWR (Rejection without Read), I mean those rejections that have the auto-reply attached to them without a request for more material (some of which are sent almost as quickly as I can reload my inbox, which means it wasn't even looked at, but those are a vast minority).

Thanks

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Are you talking about auto-responders? Those just tell you that your email was successfully received. They aren't rejections.

Colossus said:

Also, by RWR (Rejection without Read), I mean those rejections that have the auto-reply attached to them without a request for more material (some of which are sent almost as quickly as I can reload my inbox, which means it wasn't even looked at, but those are a vast minority).

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You might want to look at Fastest Rejection Ever. I've gotten a couple of rejections in the less then two minute range that were personalized (name or title of book) and know a couple of people besides the ones in that thread who got requests in less then two minutes.

You're making an assumption that is arguably accurate on any specific query, but as a statement of fact that all quick rejections are auto-rejections is not supported by fact. It's the same thing as saying that all oaks are trees, therefore all trees are oaks. It doesn't work.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Colossus said:

... if agents get 20% of their client list from conferences (stated above) then it's worth a shot.

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This right here shows that you still have no clue how publishing really works.

Most of the top agents take on only 2 or 3 new clients per year. At most. Many go several years without taking on any new clients...and I'm talking here about agents who are open to queries, not those closed to queries.

So do the maths. If an agent takes on, say, 2 new clients per year, and if 20% of their clients came from meetings at conferences, that means that on average, the agent takes on TWO clients every five years from conference meetings.

The number of 'slots' available for representation is miniscule compared to the number of writers querying. There are no meaningful shortcuts. You aren't any more special than any other writer who's querying. Your writing, based on your posts here, is basically competent, which puts your work into the top 10%, but you have to have more than competent writing; you have to have a query and, even more, a book that sparkles and shines above 99% of the other thousands querying.

Work on making your work sparkle and shine, and forget about trying to circumvent the system (which, BTW, works extremely well: look at all those perfectly publishable books sitting on bookshop shelves). You're wasting your energy in the unprofitable pursuit of forcing your way in the back door, when the front door is standing wide open for those who supply what an agent is looking for.