Submitting to Pro Mags

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Outofcontext

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What constitutes a pro mag? What constitutes a minor publication credit? Two very subjective questions. And you never know what's in the mind of that person digging into the slush pile. They have their own prejudices, which we cannot even guess at.

That said, I include whatever credits there are and if they help, they help. I can't imagine someone rejecting my story simply because they don't know about or dislike where I've published in the past.

OoC
 

jaksen

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A pro mag pays pro rates, at five cents a word and higher.

If you have publishing credits from a pro magazine, by all means mention them. It might get you past the college kids going through the slush pile, or the interns, etc.

This lands you on the editor or asst. editor's desk, which is always a better place to start from than the bottom (or middle) of a slush pile.

It has happened to me.
 

blacbird

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If you have publishing credits from a pro magazine, by all means mention them. It might get you past the college kids going through the slush pile, or the interns, etc.

This lands you on the editor or asst. editor's desk, which is always a better place to start from than the bottom (or middle) of a slush pile.

So the manuscript itself isn't all that matters. We've had more than a few comments here to the contrary. Glad you cleared that up.

caw
 

jaksen

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So the manuscript itself isn't all that matters. We've had more than a few comments here to the contrary. Glad you cleared that up.

caw


Of course the ms. matters. But having been published in a pro magazine or anthology (might) take you out of the slush to the desk of those who decide. It has to be obvious if you've 'proven' yourself once, then you probably know what you're doing, and what they - the magazine, the editors - are looking for.

So you move ahead a little faster, but you can still get rejected.

That has happened to me, too. :(
 

Jamesaritchie

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So the manuscript itself isn't all that matters. We've had more than a few comments here to the contrary. Glad you cleared that up.

caw

It's always the manuscript that matters, but there's no denying that it helps if you can get past first readers.

The real reason credits help is purely and simply because they show you can write a story that's good enough to make an editor put his job on the line to buy and publish it. Credits are simply a way of prioritizing what you read, when you read it, and even who reads it first.

I won't get this exactly right, but think it was Nancy Kress who said something like every slush pile is broken into three sections, the Gods, the Mere Mortals, and Everybody Else.

The Gods are those big name writers who always deliver a good story. This doesn't mean you will automatically buy it. It may not fit omagazine well, you may have more stories from Gods than you can take, etc., but these stories are always good.

The Mere Mortals are those writers who have some credits, who make a decent sale every now and then, but who are not Gods, and may never move to the God stack of stories.

Everybody Else is all the writers, new or used, that have no credits, unless maybe it's a sale to Podunk Weekly for no pay. You know most of what's in that stack is worthless, horribly written, same old, same old, or just plain boring.

But you also know the Mere Mortals and the Gods both got their start in that stack, so you will read them, or enough of each story to determine quality. If there is a worthy manuscript in that stack, a budding Mere Mortal, or even a baby God, you will find it, buy it, and publish it.

Credits, or lack thereof, simply tell you which stack to place a story in. If you have first readers, they get the Everybody else stack, and sometimes the Mere Mortals stacks. You always read the God stack yourself.

If you don't have first readers, then this is how you prioritize your reading, and, yes, expectations change depending on which stack you're reading, as well they should.

But it's always the manuscript itself that has the final say, and many an Everybody Else writer has jumped straight to the God stack by sending in a brilliant story.

It is, however, fair to say that if you want to sell a story to a top magazine, you have to send in a story that's better than at least one of the God stories. Not as good as, but better. This, too, is only fair.

The Mere Mortals accomplish this now and then. Sometimes an Everybody Else does, as well, but it happens far, far less often with these writers, which is why you use credits to prioritize your reading.

No matter how you slice it, though, it is, in the end, always the manuscript that matters. If you submit a great story, one that's fresh, original, that has characters the editor has never met, all of whom speak good, realistic, meaningful dialogue, the editor will find and buy that story, and you will move up at least one stack in the slush pile.

If you do not or can not deliver such a story, you will stay in the Everybody Else stack until you can deliver such a story.
 

blacbird

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So the manuscript itself isn't ALL that matters.

Both the two preceding comments seemed to have missed the single important word bolded above.

We've had more than a few comments here to the contrary.

And yes we damn well have.

And, no, I don't believe entirely that every manuscript in any of the three major stacks gets read with the same degree of diligence. Any more than I believe that many manuscripts in the Untouchable stack get read at all at some important venues. And I can understand that; reading submissions at big pro mags has to be an arduous, demanding process for any editor. Nor do I consider any of this an issue of "fairness." It is what it is.

But let's, for God's sake, not deny what it is.

caw
 

Jamesaritchie

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But let's, for God's sake, not deny what it is.

caw

The reality is one you don't seem to be aware of. Very few God writers keep writing short stories forever, or, if they do, they write fewer and fewer as their novels become more and more popular.

Editors have a constant and urgent need to find new short story writers. This is simply how it is. The ONLY way to find these new writers is by reading both the Mere Mortals and the Everybody Else stacks diligently.

If, as an editor, you don't do this, another editor will, and you'll be out of a job.

This does not, of course, mean they read every manuscript in the "everybody Else stack front to back. There's no reason on earth why they should. Bad is bad, and no matter who much writers would like to think otherwise, most of what editors see is bad. Good is subjective, but bad stands out so much that anyone, except the writer, and probably his beta readers, can see it clearly.

But even with the Everybody Else stack, an editor reads until the writer puts up a big, neon stop sign. This stop sign may be in the first sentence, at the end of page two, or three fourths of the way through the story, but wherever it is, the writer put it there, and why should an editor go past it?

Editors, all editors, need a constant influx of new writers, and nothing thrills an editor more than finding an Everybody Else who hasn't suck a big, neon stop sign in his writing. It isn;t the editor's fault that this seldom happens.

And the fact remains that be you a God, or be you a Mere Mortal like myself, you were born an Everybody Else, and you morphed into a Mere Mortal or a God because of your manuscripts.

We didn't get where we are because of who we know, because of luck, or because we learned a magic spell that made editors buy our stories. At some point, we say down, wrote a story, and submitted it to a magazine where it was promptly placed in the Everybody Else stack.

Depending on the magazine, a first reader or an editor, bleary-eyed and tired, started wading through the Everybody Else submissions. When he reached our story, maybe after discarding fifty others, he started reading, probably with very low expectations. But as he kept reading he perked up because the story interested him, and there was no stop sign. There wasn't even yield right of way sign. If he found a sign at all, it read "No speed limit. Put the petal to the metal and go!

When he finished he probably muttered, "Well, hell, I have to publish this. But who am I going to reject so I can keep this one? No matter, I'll find someone. I have to buy this story, no matter what."

This is how it works. We all come out of the Everybody Else stack. All of us, and we do so purely and simply because we give the editor story that's both good and original, that is, in some way, better than just about everything else he's read in that submission period.

A single story, even a good one, can get rejected at one or two or five magazines because it just isn't quite good enough that month, or because it just doesn't quite fit what an editor wants, but when story after story after story gets rejected at magazine after magazine after magazine, the problem is always with the stories, not with the selection process.

It isn't reasonable to think an editor will read the Everybody Else stack with the same high expectations he has when reading the other stacks, but this in no way means he doesn't read them diligently, or that he rejects good, original stories from that stack.

It's always the manuscript that matters, and almost every last one of us started life as Everybody Else. The only way we moved out of that stack was because the manuscript was so good it made an editor realize we were not just Everybody Else, we were, at the very least, Mere Mortals, and might even become Gods.

It's also true that an amazing number of stories from the God stack also get rejected, and this is further proof that the manuscript is what matters. Even Ray Bradbury said he'd been rejected every week of his life, including this week.
 

Bolder

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Got another paying market to add to my credits, no pro mags yet though. I have to say that I decided if I want to take my writing to the next level, I have to focus on only Pro mags so that an agent will be interested in my novels, which is what I really want to write anyway.

PS. Blacbird, man, I have seen your posts for years, and I have to say that you are your own worst problem when it comes to writing. Let me give you a little advise since i'm tired of seeing the same posts from you.

1. You have an MFA in creative writing if I remember correctly. I'm sure people submitting to agents will say that that can substitute for having credits in mags. you are already a step ahead of everyone else in the query process, since you can say that you have an MFA. I think the problem here is that you don't write books or query agents. I spent a whole summer writing about 30 stories and subbing to all sorts of mags, and at the end I have credits now, even if they are minor.

2. I think your brain is full of all that MFA BS that they teach. I have never taken a single creative writing class and have read fewer novels than you have, I guarantee it. Maybe don't pay attention to what they taught, and just use it as a credit. I wish I could. there is a reason "literary" is a genre in which a prerequisite is that they sell fewer than 500 copies (Har har)


Just my take on your situation, take it or leave it, but you gotta change something.
 

Batspan

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Bolder --
Just for perspective, I don't think agents and publishers are looking for people with MFAs.

I got a reading from a top agent based on my pitch -- I probably mentioned the one pro fiction credit I had at the time. Even if I'd sold multiple short stories, the pitch is what gets a yes for sending on a MSS. That experience taught me you don't have to know anyone or jump through any magic hoops to get a shot.

BTW, I have an MFA, yet I only bring it up in a cover letter if it seems relevant -- usually to refer to my minor in Classical Archaeology for certain stories. I keep cover letters as brief as possible. Most stories have to get past a slush reader, and there's no telling what that person's biases are. I limit my note to my top sales.

It's great you're going after pro credits, just don't let it hold you back that you don't have them. Many novelists past and present don't have advanced degrees of any kind and don't write short stories.
 
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julietk

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I have a bunch of minor paid credits (one pro rate, for an anthology) and have been working on different ways to refer to them, or not, in cover letters. I doubt it makes that much difference but it is an interesting challenge :)

I have definitely overdone it in the past through feeling that that MORE credits MUST be good, until an editor politely and a little elliptically suggested otherwise. The editor in question was accepting something, though, so I was happy enough.
 
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