Simultaneous Submissions

Haphazard said:

I don't know if this is an appropriate thread for this board but this has bothered me for a long time. I know that most short story publications demand there be no simultaneous submissions. However, I've read one book that said that you should ignore this because the probability of your story getting accepted into one magazine is so low that getting into two magazines if you submitted to, say, five at once, is insanely low that it's an acceptable risk to make some magazine angry with you.

That may have been the only book on short stories that I've read, but he's just one guy. Asking all of AW I think I'm more likely to get a balanced response. If it matters, I have not done any simultaneous submissions despite this guy's advice.

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If a market says no simultaneous submissions, I don't send them any simultaneous submissions. To do so would not only be be rude but likely to piss off the editor who might otherwise take many stories from you over a period of years.

-That's- the risk you're taking. And you're still being rude.

Haphazard said:

I don't know if this is an appropriate thread for this board but this has bothered me for a long time. I know that most short story publications demand there be no simultaneous submissions. However, I've read one book that said that you should ignore this because the probability of your story getting accepted into one magazine is so low that getting into two magazines if you submitted to, say, five at once, is insanely low that it's an acceptable risk to make some magazine angry with you.

That may have been the only book on short stories that I've read, but he's just one guy. Asking all of AW I think I'm more likely to get a balanced response. If it matters, I have not done any simultaneous submissions despite this guy's advice.

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If the market says no, then the answer for me is no. Analog's had a story of mine for 188 days so far. It's a story that I believe in so strongly, I know it could sell somewhere else if Analog doesn't want it. So, why do I not submit it somewhere else or withdraw my submission?

The reason is simple. Analog, and almost every other magazine out there, has more than enough people who want to send them stuff that they lose nothing by ignoring me because I was rude and unprofessional. I, however, lose out on that market for all time as well as possibly any others who learn about what I did. I need these markets a whole lot more than they need me.

I don't know who wrote that you should ignore the simultaneous submission guidelines, but it's horrible advice. That alone would make me question any other advice the individual may offer.

I think simultaneous submissions are a horrible idea, even if the markets allow it. There is no probability on a story getting accepted. This isn't a lottery.

Assuming you do your job as a researcher and submit to markets that your story fits, your story will be accepted or rejected on merit, not on odds.

If your story is really good, you don't need to send it to five markets at once to sell it. But here's the big thing, if you story isn't quite up to par, simultaneous submissions means you won't have a chance to fix its flaws between submissions. You burn through all the top markets at once with a story none of them want, and with no chance to turn it into a story one of them does want.

If you really want to speed up the process, simultaneous submissions is not the way to go. All this does is speed up how fast you build a collection of rejection slips.

The way to speed up the process is to study the markets, make sure your story fits a given magazine well, and write a lot of stories.

Instead of sending one story to five markets, send five stories to one market each. Now you have a chance to fix and repair according to feedback, or just because you realize something is wrong, and since you have five stories out, you have five chances for each of them to sell.

Then you keep writing short stories. Before long, you'll have ten stories out, and then fifteen, and then twenty. You'll be hearing back from one magazine or another pretty much every week. Because of this, you won't even noting waiting time, and every story you have out will have the maximum potential for a sale.

Editor have sound and solid reasons for not wanting simultaneous submissions, and all ignoring them does is clog up the slush pile for everyone, tick off editors, and cost you sales because you're burning through markets without the chance to fix problems.

The people who say no simultaneous submissions are thinking of themselves. You have to think of you, because nobody else is going to do it. I've always sent simultaneous submissions. So far there has never been a conflict, but if there ever was one, I'd simply apologize and tell them I had forgotten all about the other submission. When editors let you wait six months to reply that they have no record of your submission do you really have to be so considerate of them? Granted, being an editor comes with problems, but so does being a writer.

c.m.albrecht said:

The people who say no simultaneous submissions are thinking of themselves. You have to think of you, because nobody else is going to do it. I've always sent simultaneous submissions. So far there has never been a conflict, but if there ever was one, I'd simply apologize and tell them I had forgotten all about the other submission.

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So you're willing to tell lies then. That's nice.

c.m.albrecht said:

When editors let you wait six months to reply that they have no record of your submission do you really have to be so considerate of them?

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Not in that case, but no good market does that anyway so it's a straw man argument.

c.m.albrecht said:

Granted, being an editor comes with problems, but so does being a writer.

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Get over it.

Markets have guidelines for a reason. Not following them just tells an editor you're not professional.

I've been at this for more than twenty years. I do it full time, and have never sent simultaneous subs. Never had to.

c.m.albrecht said:

The people who say no simultaneous submissions are thinking of themselves. You have to think of you, because nobody else is going to do it. I've always sent simultaneous submissions. So far there has never been a conflict, but if there ever was one, I'd simply apologize and tell them I had forgotten all about the other submission. When editors let you wait six months to reply that they have no record of your submission do you really have to be so considerate of them? Granted, being an editor comes with problems, but so does being a writer.

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And how many of those stories have you sold to good magazines?

It's just foolish to say an editor lets you wait six months, and then says he has no record of your submission. If that happens, it's your fault, not the editor's, and it very, very rarely happens at all.

And I guarantee you this, an apology wouldn't work for me, or for any editor I know. Once I found out you violated the no simultaneous submission guidelines, everything that came in with your name on it would be rejected with a form. Editors have sound and solid reasons for the no simultaneous submissions policy, and as important, this policy doesn't harm you is any way, shape, or form.

Thinking about yourself is one thing, but when it reaches the point where you're just being an obnoxious prima donna who's gumming up the works for every writer, you've crossed the line.

You should be considerate of everyone, and doubly so to people you're trying to sell something to.

You're harming yourself by violating guidelines, you're harming other writers by violating guidelines, and you're exactly the kind of writer who causes magazines to stop accepting unsolicited submissions.

Haphazard said:

That may have been the only book on short stories that I've read, but he's just one guy. Asking all of AW I think I'm more likely to get a balanced response. If it matters, I have not done any simultaneous submissions despite this guy's advice.

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Don't do it. It's unprofessional and you don't want to make a name for yourself for the wrong reasons.

c.m.albrecht said:

The people who say no simultaneous submissions are thinking of themselves. You have to think of you, because nobody else is going to do it. I've always sent simultaneous submissions. So far there has never been a conflict, but if there ever was one, I'd simply apologize and tell them I had forgotten all about the other submission. When editors let you wait six months to reply that they have no record of your submission do you really have to be so considerate of them? Granted, being an editor comes with problems, but so does being a writer.

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How am I thinking of myself exactly? I've sold two short stories and guess what, I didn't simultaneously submit! I got acceptances within 2 weeks of submitting. Do some mags have up to 6 months waiting time, sure, that's why they tell you to query if you haven't heard anything after a few months. There hasn't been a conflict with your sim-submissions because you haven't been caught at it.

Basically, if you're going to submit to any market, it's professional to follow their guidelines.

If you don't agree with their guidelines or processes, don't submit to that market.

You might want to avoid some of the more lengthy waits by submitting to markets that have faster turnaround times. You can make simultaneous submissions but stick with the markets that allow it. (Mostly not pro-rate markets.)

There are many excellent writers out there who write perfect stories AND follow editorial guidelines. In my experience, following the guidelines is a lot easier than writing a perfect story. So, my advice is to always follow the guidelines as one of the more manageable steps in becoming a professional writer.

(And one of these days an editor will say 'wow, she really nailed those guidelines! this one goes in the publish pile.' )

I don't do SS even with publications that allow it. It just isn't necessary.

I'm still enough of an optimist to imagine that at some point two editors might want the same story and I don't want to have to pull a story. As Willie pointed out, it's not only about the current submission, it's about reputation and a potential ongoing relationship.

I've worked as an editor so I understand what goes on at the other end, and the investment of time and energy that goes into selecting work.

It's been a few years since I've edited anything, yet I still register who's worth working with based on professionalism and courtesy.

'No sim subs' is a dumb policy, particularly with mags that take months to respond, but what can you do? Play their game by their rules.

I totally agree that no simultaneous subs is annoying, however, I also totally agree with Jamesaritchie (and others) that you shouldn't do it. It assumes that sending in stories is some kind of random numbers game, which, after subbing short stories for about 2 years now, I totally DON'T think is true.

When I started writing and got nothing but form rejections, I honestly felt like I was playing the lottery. But, now, more often then not, I get personal feedback from editors on my stories. There is definitely a luck aspect to everything (one of my stories was rejected because it was too similar to a story they'd just bought from Ken Liu...so I'll take that and tattoo on my arm "my story was too similar to something Ken Liu wrote" with great pride ), but there is also knowing an editor's tastes, knowing what specific magazines publish, and having a story that you are confident will make it somewhere.

Also, if you'd prefer a selfish argument, you are damaging your career if you keep telling editors that you accidentally forgot to tell them you subbes it elsewhere. If there is anything I've learned, the publishing world is very, very small indeed.

Fizgig said:

There is definitely a luck aspect to everything (one of my stories was rejected because it was too similar to a story they'd just bought from Ken Liu...so I'll take that and tattoo on my arm "my story was too similar to something Ken Liu wrote" with great pride ), .

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That's quite the compliment!

Gnome said:

That's quite the compliment!

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Seriously! That's why I'm contemplating getting it tattooed on my arm, ;D.

I'll put in a vote on the ignore the no simultaneous submissions instruction. No publication that I submit to has a greater than 1% acceptance rate, most are much lower. I submit in batches of 10 (with occasional adjustments upwards for various reasons), regardless of the guidelines for who receives it. I do feel obligated to withdraw promptly if I receive an acceptance elsewhere. That is my primary obligation.

dahosek said:

I'll put in a vote on the ignore the no simultaneous submissions instruction. No publication that I submit to has a greater than 1% acceptance rate, most are much lower. I submit in batches of 10 (with occasional adjustments upwards for various reasons), regardless of the guidelines for who receives it. I do feel obligated to withdraw promptly if I receive an acceptance elsewhere. That is my primary obligation.

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So, because their acceptance rates are so low, that justifies unprofessional behavior by not adhering to the submission guidelines?

If you don't like the guidelines, don't submit. If you want to play in their sandbox, it's only right to play by the rules.

I think a lot depends on the definition of "unprofessional behavior."

Digging a bit more into a handful of people's backgrounds, I think that a big part of this is also a genre divide. A lot (most? all?) of those who are adamant about following the no sim sub guideline are people writing SF/F. Those of us peeing in the pool of literary magazines are more likely to be advised otherwise. I know a fair number of editors and people who are higher-tier literary fiction writers (as in people whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, received Guggenheims, been on Man Booker shortlists, etc.) They're the ones who directed me towards this policy (one author I know inadvertently had an essay accepted and published twice as first publication. The essay ended up being listed as a notable essay in two consecutive years of Best American Essays).

In California, it's illegal to smoke in (nearly all) businesses. Light up a cigarette in a bar in West Hollywood and you'll get kicked out the door. Complain about someone smoking at a bar in Koreatown and you'll get kicked out the door.

-dh

Some thoughts from the former editor of Strange Horizon:

http://www.strangehorizons.com/fiction-info/2010/11/why_we_discoura.shtml

http://www.strangehorizons.com/fiction-info/2010/05/dont_send_us_si-comments.shtml

dahosek said:

I think a lot depends on the definition of "unprofessional behavior."

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Not following submission guidelines strikes me as being horribly unprofessional.

If the markets in question don't mind simultaneous submissions, they seriously need to change their guidelines to reflect that. If they don't change it, it just strikes me as extremely rude to do what you want regardless.

That's all.

For me, it boils down to this.

If you don't respect a market enough to follow its guidelines, why would you want to have a story published there?

In tracking my submissions, I've found that the vast majority have responded within thirty days, some within 48 hours. College affiliated publications tend to be slowest, but even they haven't taken more than six weeks.

OoC

Outofcontext said:

In tracking my submissions, I've found that the vast majority have responded within thirty days, some within 48 hours. College affiliated publications tend to be slowest, but even they haven't taken more than six weeks.

OoC

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There are plenty of markets that take much longer to get through slush than this. Tor comes to mind, and some literary markets are notoriously long waits. Submission times will vary based on personal experiences and genre. I, personally, would never break a no-simultaneous-submissions rule because I respect the markets too much to break any of their rules. But to each his own.

My long experience with submission of manuscripts indicates that it doesn't matter if you submit exclusively to any one publication, or simultaneously to several. The results have always been the same: No acceptances.

I sim-subbed on a few occasions, only to those pubs that indicated they accepted such, and never more than three at a time, and never without telling all that I was doing that. Mostly I've submitted stuff one at a time, and waited.

And waited. And waited. And waited.

And either got a rejection, or got . . . no response.

I've submitted exactly one story to one publication in each of the past three years. With the same results. This year, no submissions. There being no perceivable point in doing so, given the history.

caw

Interesting debate.

Stick to the guidelines always, I say. As many have stated, you risk jeopardising relationships with editors in the long term for the sake of the short term. It doesn't matter how low the A rate is, if you don't believe your story could be in that 1% why bother subbing at all?

That said, I don't understand why you wouldn't sim/sub if the guidelines allow for it!? That just seems odd and slightly masochistic to me. I've had work accepted that has been permissibly sim-subbed elsewhere, and no editors have complained about me withdrawing those subs when accepted elsewhere. I've even sold to these editors later on with different stories. It's also pretty standard behaviour when subbing to agents in the novel writing world as agents know there simply aren't the hours in one's lifetime to wait for each agent to respond to you before subbing to someone else.

It's true there is a difference between spec markets (who mostly don't allow sim subs) and lit markets (who largely do because they have much longer wait times), and that is shaping the different attitudes to this. But the pool you paddle in is not an excuse to ignore guidelines.

Also, I think if you are as creative as someone like Willie, you don't mind waiting for a response to a story because you have probably written and submitted more stories in the meantime. If you only write one short story a year you are probably more likely to dislike a no sim-sub rule. My advice to the latter would be write more stories, you soon stop caring about wait times for individual subs.

Personally I don't like it when markets have long waits AND don't allow sim subs. So I just don't sub to them.

Instead of sending one story to five markets, send five stories to one market each.

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I agree with this. Don't sit around for 6 months waiting to see if a pub responds to you. Get busy writing more stories.

I was surprised recently to learn two writers I know ignore the "no sim subs" guidelines all the time. It just feels wrong to me.