If you have three kinda OK small time credits that count as paid pubs... include them when subbing to Pro mags even though they will never have heard of them? I feel it might be a toss up to just leaving that part of the query blank. What seems to work the best?
Submitting to Pro Mags
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Speaking as a first reader, I say leave it blank. Credits in a cover letter are really unnecessary, and listing credits a reader has never hear of is more likely to be a hindrance than a help. The story will live or die on its own, so don't over-think the cove letter. Keep it simple. 
Yeah I was thinking it might hurt me to have no name pubs people might assume were not paid. But on the flip side, once I get Pro paying credits, would they help if put in the query? I'm guessing so.
No, not really. What helps is writing a story that matches what the editors are looking for. Just because you are a pro writer, doesn't mean your story will fit.
I include a couple in the cover letter but don't go overboard. As Marina says, the story will stand on its merits.
M
I include a couple in the cover letter but don't go overboard. As Marina says, the story will stand on its merits.
M
Mention 'em without getting overly specific.
That's what I'd do, not to say it's the right approach.
Even so, I insist you do the same !
;-)
That's what I'd do, not to say it's the right approach.
Even so, I insist you do the same !
;-)
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I used to write something like, "has had stories published in a number of small magazines." But yes, once you have pro credits, you should definitely mention them.
It's not something I ever had to worry about. I had pro credits from my first story on. I know really good credits can get you past a first reader at many top magazines, and make it more likely that if you are rejected, you'll at least get feedback from the main editor, but I don't know how this works with small credits from magazines the editor has never heard of.
I'd list them, anyway. It will, if nothing else, tell whoever reads your story first that you write well enough for someone to take your stories, so they should start reading with higher expectations.
It's true that a story sells on its own merit, but it's equally true that having an editor read your story with the expectation that it will be better than most he sees counts, as well. Any credit at all separates you from ninety percent of the writers in a given slush pile, and they're called "credits" for a reason.
If you don't list them, the expectation is that you're one of the ninety percent who hasn't sold anything, anywhere. Even if it doesn't help at a given magazine, it sure can't do any harm, and anything you can do to separate yourself from the ninety percent in a slush pile who are unpublished is a good thing.
I'd list them, anyway. It will, if nothing else, tell whoever reads your story first that you write well enough for someone to take your stories, so they should start reading with higher expectations.
It's true that a story sells on its own merit, but it's equally true that having an editor read your story with the expectation that it will be better than most he sees counts, as well. Any credit at all separates you from ninety percent of the writers in a given slush pile, and they're called "credits" for a reason.
If you don't list them, the expectation is that you're one of the ninety percent who hasn't sold anything, anywhere. Even if it doesn't help at a given magazine, it sure can't do any harm, and anything you can do to separate yourself from the ninety percent in a slush pile who are unpublished is a good thing.
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I list three magazines/anthos (most recent) usually. Of course, now that I have *big pro mag* who wants to publish, I also sometimes say 'forthcoming in--' However, when sending to that mag I don't think I even included a cover letter (which I often don't, especially in a form submitable type system) live or die by the story, ya know?
People seem to have conflicting thoughts about this, including me. Perhaps I will include the credits for half of my subs, and not include them for the other half. Can't really think what else to do. Since I know people love discovering new awesome writers, I can imagine a case where having no credits is better than bad credits. Not that paid credits are bad or anything, but getting 3 dollars by Paypal doesn't seem to have the same prestige as getting several hundred from Analog from the editor's standpoint.
No, of course not. I made a novel deal just because I had some stories published by Ellery Queen, which is one of the top mysteries out there. Had those stories been published by someone backroom rag that no one ever heard of, I wouldn't have made that deal.
But just because your paid credit isn't as good as an Analog credit doesn't mean it doesn't count for something. It's still something that 90% of the other writers in the slush pile lack.
Sometimes you just have to go by the rule, "It may not help much, but it can't hurt."
I include my credits, measly as they are. If nothing else, it shows the reader that I've written long enough that someone has found my writing good enough to be paid for. I don't think that takes away from the appeal of someone who wants to discover an "unknown" writer. Because let's face it, a few minor credits don't make me known.
For me, the big problem is the 'likely never heard of' aspect. You wouldn't believe the number of 'credits' I've seen that turn out to be a high school newspaper, or someone's cousin's pet project, or, sadly, flat out don't exist (at least, in Google's eyes).
Telling an editor you are published in a venue they've never heard of is not helpful, because they don't know what the *acceptance* rates are like, never mind the pay. If it turns out 80% of all subs get published at _Mag I don't know about_, that's a red flag. Sure, maybe you've been published in a small mag that is super selective, but the editor is only going to know that if they take the time to find out. In my experience, once you get going, you get tired of looking up every obscure credit that comes along.
It's much more refreshing to see a cover letter that contains only what the editor really needs to know: your name, contact info, and your story's title, genre, and word count.
And the pro credit thing is a whole 'nother conversation, but if you list your pro credits, chances are the reader is going to expect *more* out of your story right off the bat. Not giving any hint as to your credentials either way leaves the reader with a clean slate.
ETA: And nothing I say here applies to querying novels--listing credits there is absolutly important because you are ultimately trying to convince someone to *look* at your work. You don't have to do that with short stories--the story itself will get evaluated no matter what.
Telling an editor you are published in a venue they've never heard of is not helpful, because they don't know what the *acceptance* rates are like, never mind the pay. If it turns out 80% of all subs get published at _Mag I don't know about_, that's a red flag. Sure, maybe you've been published in a small mag that is super selective, but the editor is only going to know that if they take the time to find out. In my experience, once you get going, you get tired of looking up every obscure credit that comes along.
It's much more refreshing to see a cover letter that contains only what the editor really needs to know: your name, contact info, and your story's title, genre, and word count.
And the pro credit thing is a whole 'nother conversation, but if you list your pro credits, chances are the reader is going to expect *more* out of your story right off the bat. Not giving any hint as to your credentials either way leaves the reader with a clean slate.
ETA: And nothing I say here applies to querying novels--listing credits there is absolutly important because you are ultimately trying to convince someone to *look* at your work. You don't have to do that with short stories--the story itself will get evaluated no matter what.
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I've never seen the use of the cover letter. I've been told what the story is about, what inspired the story, what the author hopes I'll do with the story, and many other irrelevant and uninteresting things. All my attempts at GUD to persuade the e-i-c not even to show me the cover letters failed, however. I don't think I ever saw anything that persuaded me to take the story more seriously, although I saw a lot of things that put me off....
It won't hurt anything. I'd probably omit the names of them, though, unless they're a bit more known. Just because a magazine isn't pro-paying doesn't mean it's not well known (and respected).
Beyond that, I think the better credits you have (or the better name you have for yourself by virtue of your credits) will make the editor read a bit longer than normal. Obviously, a crap story won't make the cut, regardless of your credits, but sometimes I wonder... would a "good" story from a well-known author, say something from their trunk (before they became great), get published on their name alone vs. if the same story was sent by someone without any credentials. I'm not an editor, but I think just knowing I had a story by Author X would make me hang on to it because I could put that name on my issue and sell copies based on that name.
Beyond that, I think the better credits you have (or the better name you have for yourself by virtue of your credits) will make the editor read a bit longer than normal. Obviously, a crap story won't make the cut, regardless of your credits, but sometimes I wonder... would a "good" story from a well-known author, say something from their trunk (before they became great), get published on their name alone vs. if the same story was sent by someone without any credentials. I'm not an editor, but I think just knowing I had a story by Author X would make me hang on to it because I could put that name on my issue and sell copies based on that name.
I'd say include it, because it says someone else thought your writing was good enough to publish even if it was small time. It may influence the reader's perspective going into the story just a hair in your favor, which can't hurt. And I see no negatives in listing them.
I used to read submissions for The Missouri Review. The first round of screening was done by us interns--undergrad and graduate students. Usually a manuscript had to make it through two or three of us before any of the editors saw it. A student may be more swayed by the credits in the cover letter than the editor. Don't assume that your cover letter is reaching the editor's desk first. If you're submitting to journals put out through universities, interns are a strong possibility!
It sounds horrifying--college students screening submissions--but truthfully, the first round is pretty obvious. There were about 20 of us reading submissions. We each read a stack of 20 per week. Out of those 20, about 15 of them were obvious decisions: nope. Of the remaining 5, another few would have some potential, but too many problems: nope again. We would pass on 1-3 stories per week to another intern to read. If a few people liked it, it would go to an editor. Or if an intern felt really strongly about it.
The benefit of interns reading the submissions was that we wanted to find the story that made it into the issue. Because we were students and wanted to impress the editor and find a way to stand out ourselves, for future referrals and so forth. So we looked for reasons to pass it on. And the editors frowned upon saying no to everything in the stack. If there was a week where not much got passed around, we got the "come on, we have to put out an issue" lecture. The editors encouraged us if we saw potential in the story or writing to pass it on. Additionally, I can personally attest to the fact that every manuscript was read at least partially.
This is getting a little off topic from your original post, but since I had some inside perspective on one lit journal, I thought I'd share.
I used to read submissions for The Missouri Review. The first round of screening was done by us interns--undergrad and graduate students. Usually a manuscript had to make it through two or three of us before any of the editors saw it. A student may be more swayed by the credits in the cover letter than the editor. Don't assume that your cover letter is reaching the editor's desk first. If you're submitting to journals put out through universities, interns are a strong possibility!
It sounds horrifying--college students screening submissions--but truthfully, the first round is pretty obvious. There were about 20 of us reading submissions. We each read a stack of 20 per week. Out of those 20, about 15 of them were obvious decisions: nope. Of the remaining 5, another few would have some potential, but too many problems: nope again. We would pass on 1-3 stories per week to another intern to read. If a few people liked it, it would go to an editor. Or if an intern felt really strongly about it.
The benefit of interns reading the submissions was that we wanted to find the story that made it into the issue. Because we were students and wanted to impress the editor and find a way to stand out ourselves, for future referrals and so forth. So we looked for reasons to pass it on. And the editors frowned upon saying no to everything in the stack. If there was a week where not much got passed around, we got the "come on, we have to put out an issue" lecture. The editors encouraged us if we saw potential in the story or writing to pass it on. Additionally, I can personally attest to the fact that every manuscript was read at least partially.
This is getting a little off topic from your original post, but since I had some inside perspective on one lit journal, I thought I'd share.
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Yeah I gave it some thought and I think i'm going to include them. If it can't hurt then I might as well. What I need more than anything is a query letter that will get an agent looking at my material, and for that, it seems pro market short story sales are where it's at. How many of you have sent 300 queries with nobody requesting pages? lol I have some work to do.
Liosse de Velishaf
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Is it really that relevant? I've read slush, and I have a friend who reads slush for a lit mag, and we never found the publishing credits to be that useful.
Even for credits from really classy mags, like Missouri Review or anything, really.
Not that they were negatives, either. They just got ignored most of the time.
Even for credits from really classy mags, like Missouri Review or anything, really.
Not that they were negatives, either. They just got ignored most of the time.
The only time credits came up for me was when editors had already liked my story, and wanted material for a bio. Even then, I only offered what was relevant.
The story always carries the weight of the submission, from what I've seen.
When I was actually reading slushpile queries for an agent in the late eighties, I learned how to separate 'real' credits from useless ones fairly quickly. This was a more innocent age, so some of those queries went on for five or six pages.
The story always carries the weight of the submission, from what I've seen.
When I was actually reading slushpile queries for an agent in the late eighties, I learned how to separate 'real' credits from useless ones fairly quickly. This was a more innocent age, so some of those queries went on for five or six pages.
Generally speaking, you have no way of knowing whether credits come into play for you. Editors seldom mention them because there's no need.
Innocent age? Even forty years ago, I would have tossed a five page query instantly.
All stories have to stand on their own, but credits absolute do make a good first impression, and at a pretty fair number of magazines, they do get you past first readers.
And credits never, ever hurt.
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