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What do writers want from beta-readers?

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AriesEmily

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I just wrote my first book and am beta-ing someone else's so they will do so to mine. As many have stated, it has opened my eyes to my common errors (I LOVE the word HAD) and I tend to go light on commas. Reading other's work has also helped me see the differences and what I like. I have been an avid reader but never did it as a beta. It was just for fun. I critiqued, but it's not the same when you are just reading for pleasure.

I want my work to be the best it can be. I was lucky that someone was willing to tackle my grammar issues. I am eternally grateful as a new writer. As I write part two, I am incorporating a lot of what I learned from her feedback.
 

AllenC

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Well, you can't read minds; I mean a beta reader - in my opinion - should give an honest feedback, because that is what helps the writer to improve.

If someone is too sissy about a critique then it's not a beta reader what probably what he/she needed in the first place. It's understandable, one works ones behind the hardest to finish a book and then expect someone to mercifully give some cheering words.

Me? I rather to hear the betareaders truth - which not necessarily would be the final truth, but a perspective ; It's up to the writer what recommendations to take, and what to throw to the trash can.

So, Samantha, honesty is a great thing, it's just a pity not everyone can take it.
 

jtrylch13

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But some people don't even bother to get back in touch to defend themselves over what I've said. Beta reading takes a lot of time to do, time in which I could be writing and correcting my own work. Am I always supposed to say people's works are brilliant, even if they're not? If so, I don't think it's really worth doing, which is quite sad as I enjoy looking at other people's work. Does anyone else, who beta-reads, feel like this? :Shrug:

If someone gets defensive, I'd say they have an issue. It isn't your issue, unless you're being needlessly cruel in how you state your opinion. Those who do not respond back -- I'd send them a reminder email and ask if they have further questions, you'd be happy to discuss any issues with them. It usually works.

I know these are old posts, but I was a little surprised and wanted to comment. If I receive a crit from someone, generally all I respond with is a thank you. It's usually a full letter stating how much I appreciate what they've done, maybe highlight a few parts they mentioned or clear up a question they had, but beyond that, I don't think it's the writer's job to defend themselves to a critter. Aren't we usually using more than one critique partner/beta reader and looking for a variety of opinions and thoughts? I wouldn't take the time to tell each beta what I did or didn't like about their crit or go through each point they made to defend myself. I take the info and make of it what I can. What does everyone else think?
 

jtrylch13

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Just wanted to add, when someone betas for me, I beta for them, so while I wouldn't take the time to defend my work against their crit, I will take ample time to give them a thorough, nit-picking, line-by-line edit suggestion of their own MS.
 

Kivari

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I look forward to the day when I will finally need to ask for beta readers. I love my spouse, family and friends and I certainly will have them read over my writing, but I also want to have no holds barred honest opinions so that I can improve my work to make it into a good, readable book (if its that horrid) and know that the compliments I do get is coming from honesty instead of a desire to not hurt my feelings. I'm a big girl and I got my big girl panties on :)
 

Jeffyo

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What authors want in a beta reader

I've had great experiences with beta's found on the betareader.us bulletin board. Because they are so affordable ($25 for a full manuscript), I've been able to use multiple readers on the same manuscript. I'm mostly interested in typos and tend to ignore suggestions about phrasing and syntax since I'm trying to preserve a voice I created. Overall, I've been impressed with their editorial eyes.
 

T M Grout

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I think it's very generous of anyone to critique another's work, even if you do say you are getting so much out of it. Personally if you had ripped my manuscript to shreds I would still be grateful that you took the time to read and to be honest. Thanks to all you beta readers. You rock!

T
 

beccajw2

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I'm not sure if this is really the right forum for this question, but it seemed to fit the most, so here goes. I've beta read once and had my work critiqued twice- and both are things I'd like to repeat. However, most people here have chapters or entire novels that need beta-ing, and I'm working on an outline for a draft 2 of what I wrote for nanowrimo.
Is an outline less beta-able than a full draft of a novel? I know an outline provides less detail than a novel, and doesn't reveal any issues in my writing style- but is it still ok to ask for feedback on it? I don't want to seek a beta reader for an outline if that's not really how beta-ing works...
 

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Becca- are you looking for a critique of your outline? I think I understand that you already have a draft of a MS but made a new outline for draft #2. Is that correct?
 

beccajw2

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Blast from the past, but yes, that's correct.

In case anyone is curious- I did get a beta reader for the outline, and since then, have written an MS that has been beta-read. Overall, I find it much easier to get feedback on an MS than an outline. There's always going to be something missing from an outline, and the MS can fill in the cracks that would otherwise appear there.
 

greendragon

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If I wanted fluffy 'I love it' comments, I'd give it to my mom. I want someone to help me find out what's not working, where the plotlines stumble, what points I've left hanging (I know in my mind what happens, but edits sometimes remove the resolution in the MS!), if my characters are believable, if the dialogue flows, etc. That's the whole point of Beta! :)
 

lianna williamson

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For me it's important to have a mix of "reader" betas and "writer" betas. I think the perspectives are different, but equally valuable. I'm in a book club with one other woman who is a writer and 8 who are not, and I do notice how differently we evaluate the books we read. It's hard for me to completely turn off my writer-brain and "just" read a novel without noticing admirable or problematic aspects of the structure, language, and characterization.

Other than that, I just want to know beta's style going into it. If they tend toward the brutal or snarky, that's fine-- as long as I know ahead of time that this is just how they operate, and not necessarily a reflection of how stupendously awful I am.

I think the only inexcusable beta comment is the implication that the writer should give up writing. I've beta'd for 8 or so novelists so far, and I haven't read anything that I consider unsalvageable. I've read work by writers whom I think need a few more years of practice before they're ready to write for publication, and I've read novels that the authors believed were basically ready to query that I think needed 2-3 more drafts. I've also read a lot of fantastic stuff that just needed some tweaks to make it stronger. But even when I've had to give feedback that was probably very hard for the writer to hear, I have always tried to include the message that it CAN be fixed if you're willing to let go of your mental timeline and do the work to make it better.
 

greendragon

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I've been blessed with some great betas - I've only done beta swaps, so they were all authors. And I've thanked them profusely for their efforts!

I write historical fantasy, so I was lucky to find one historical fiction author and one fantasy author for my MS - between the two, I got a nice, balanced view :)
 

Chase

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I want what I give: Feedback on the specifics of the words written in the story. If the words work, let me know. If they don't, tell me why.

Please don't inform me you hate all adverbs (for instance) on general principles and expect me to feel the same. I'll only delete a specific words which doesn't work and leave a blank or fill in a replacement that I think does work.

Please spare me lectures on "rules" that aren't really rules. If I'm not dead sure of the facts and have a reliable source to pass on to you, I'll tell you it's only my opinion to take or leave.

I read your story with the most suspension of disbelief I can muster. I don't expect you to write the way I do, and I trust you won't expect me to change my style to yours without very solid reasons.
 
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Shunter

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What I want from a beta reader is honesty. You didn't like X? Please tell me why. It does me no good to hear like or dislike without reasons attached.

I like a mixture of knowing what the prose makes the reader feel and comments on improvements. For me, half the point of having a beta is to know whether what I'm writing hits the mark. Was an erotic scene sexy? Did my action scene feel gripping? Was my twist a shock or not?

I suppose the next thing I'd want to know is whether the flow of the prose is good or not. Is there anything that just jars them away or is it smooth? Does someone say something out of character at some point?

I'm not interested in comments suggesting significant theme or plot changes. If a beta disapproves of my subject matter, probably we're not a good fit for each other. If they dislike my style, see previous comment. The most useless beta comment I ever received was along the lines of 'well it seems okay but maybe switch from 1st person to 3rd' regarding a finished novel. We both were wasting our time there.

I'm the sort who needs it all with a pinch of sugar. If a beta gets their rocks off being snarky, they can stay the heck away from my manuscript. I don't need that kind of negativity--and I'm not sure anyone does. I expect to hear if something is not working, no apologies attached--if it's a problem, it's a problem--but no unkind phrasing. Not something I have run into personally, but I've also steered clear of a couple of betas after seeing that their 'constructive critiques' were almost 100% negative. It's important for me to know what's not working, but I also need to know what is.

In short, the story is there--tell me if I have told it effectively. I want someone who is interested in my style, and points out changes because they want good to be better. Not all of us are good fits for each other, but when I find someone who is, I stick to them like glue!
 

djunamod

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I've actually been getting a bit into beta reading lately, mainly because I want to gain experience as a beta reader for the work of others and also have beta readers for my work, once it is ready for that stage.

My understanding of what beta reading is about is that it's about having other pairs of eyes read your work in its entirety and give you their thoughts and feedback based on the work as a whole. They are not editors who are doing a line-editing or heavy editing (my personal belief is that this is the work for publishing house editors or freelance editors, if you're going the route of self-publishing, which I am). But they give you a chance to expose your work to readers and get overall impressions and feedback on it. They are taking precious time out of their lives and putting effort into giving you some feedback, which we all know takes a lot from people, even if they're just giving you a few comments. Because of this, my belief is that the work I give to beta readers should be as complete as I can make it. It should be a completed manuscript that has at least gone some through some revisions. Ideally, it should be almost ready for publication when it gets to the beta reading stage.

However, I'm starting to see that many writers don't see it that way. They see beta readers as helping them with the writing process and they give them unfinished manuscripts with notes and bits and pieces and expect the beta readers to help shape the work for them. I am strongly against this.

I recently had someone ask me to be a beta reader for their novel. I expected to get a complete manuscript that had at least gone through some revisions (at least one). What I got instead was a train wreck - some completed chapters but a lot of bits and pieces of dialogue and description and lots and lots of notes on scenes.

I did the best I could for the writer, but I couldn't help but think that this writer wasn't very respectful of my time or effort if he/she was expecting me to do part of the creative work for them.

Another writer, in a discussion on this topic, stated that he always sends his unfinished work to beta readers because what's the point of sending them the complete manuscript if he's only going to have to make changes to it after their comments? That made absolutely no sense to me. Isn't the point of beta readers to give feedback on the way the story flows organically and how they feel about the characters and storyline and other elements? You're a writer - you're supposed to do revision, both on your own and based on feedback.

Sorry if I sound like I have strong opinions about this. But I just don't think it's fair to subject people who have agreed to take their time and put their efforts into helping you with your book until you have a manuscript that is as complete as you can make it.

Djuna
 

djunamod

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I am often met with defensiveness, yes, which I can understand, I'm the same about my work.

But some people don't even bother to get back in touch to defend themselves over what I've said.

There's a bit of a contradiction here. You mention that you're often met with defensiveness on your critique, but you then mention that many people don't bother to defend themselves.

I know that the first instinct for many people is to defend their work when someone is less than a cheerleader about it, but I think that it's ultimately unprofessional and detrimental to the writer. After all, any critique we get from beta readers is never a requirement. They are just suggesting what they think might help based on how they read our work. We might agree with it and we might not. My personal belief is that a simple thank you note to a beta reader for taking the time to read my work is all that is needed. I don't need to defend my work to someone who might not agree with what I've written. I might agree with it and I might not, but what is to be gained by my writing that person an email to defend why I did this or that? Nothing, as far as I can see. So I am perfectly fine with not getting a response from a writer to whom I've done a beta reading. And I certainly don't want them defending their work (as it's their choice what they want to do and they don't have to defend their choices to me).

Djuna
 

Maryn

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It behooves us all (and how many chances do we get to use that word?) to make sure writer and beta reader agree on some basics. Where the manuscript is in terms of completion, edit, and final polish is vital.

The term "beta reader" comes from the computer industry's beta testers, who'd use a program or play a game its creators thought was ready to market, seeking anything which might still be wrong with it so it could be fixed before going public.

To me, a beta reader is the very last reader before a work is submitted to agents or publishers or is self-published. The work a beta reader goes over is complete. It has been edited for content and grammar, copy edited, proofread, spell checked, and polished to a tasteful gleam. It's totally ready to go.

However, a lot of people don't use the term beta reader the same way, so it's important to agree on terms before you're really doing critique on very rough or incomplete work rather than beta reading it as you though you'd agreed to.

Maryn, opinionated about this
 

Angela

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Maryn, I have a 260,000 epic fantasy/horror/mystery/erotica mashup I finished this morning. My cousin's been reading it as I've written it and she thinks it's just fantabulous, really. The next NYT Bestseller.

Would you pretty please with cherries on top beta for me?

:evil

Angela, who couldn't resist poking at Maryn. :e2poke:

It behooves us all (and how many chances do we get to use that word?) to make sure writer and beta reader agree on some basics. Where the manuscript is in terms of completion, edit, and final polish is vital.

The term "beta reader" comes from the computer industry's beta testers, who'd use a program or play a game its creators thought was ready to market, seeking anything which might still be wrong with it so it could be fixed before going public.

To me, a beta reader is the very last reader before a work is submitted to agents or publishers or is self-published. The work a beta reader goes over is complete. It has been edited for content and grammar, copy edited, proofread, spell checked, and polished to a tasteful gleam. It's totally ready to go.

However, a lot of people don't use the term beta reader the same way, so it's important to agree on terms before you're really doing critique on very rough or incomplete work rather than beta reading it as you though you'd agreed to.

Maryn, opinionated about this
 

Dennis E. Taylor

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However, a lot of people don't use the term beta reader the same way, so it's important to agree on terms before you're really doing critique on very rough or incomplete work rather than beta reading it as you though you'd agreed to.

I just today asked a couple of people to be alpha readers. There was no issue with understanding.

Maryn, I have a 260,000 epic fantasy/horror/mystery/erotica mashup I finished this morning.

Eek!
 

Maryn

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For a lot of people, "beta reader" is a sort of buzzword term they use to sound like they're insiders or experienced. I see it daily at other sites where people seek others to read first drafts in progress.
 

lizo27

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For a lot of people, "beta reader" is a sort of buzzword term they use to sound like they're insiders or experienced. I see it daily at other sites where people seek others to read first drafts in progress.

I agree, and I think it's best to use terms correctly, but I think the most important thing is for the person seeking critique to simply state up front what stage of drafting they're in and what level of critique they're looking for. Certainly there's nothing wrong with asking for feedback on a rough draft, but if that's what you want, you should say so.
 

Maryn

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Somebody say "Amen!"

Maryn, in full agreement
 

shadowwalker

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However, I'm starting to see that many writers don't see it that way. They see beta readers as helping them with the writing process and they give them unfinished manuscripts with notes and bits and pieces and expect the beta readers to help shape the work for them. I am strongly against this.

I recently had someone ask me to be a beta reader for their novel. I expected to get a complete manuscript that had at least gone through some revisions (at least one). What I got instead was a train wreck - some completed chapters but a lot of bits and pieces of dialogue and description and lots and lots of notes on scenes.

I did the best I could for the writer, but I couldn't help but think that this writer wasn't very respectful of my time or effort if he/she was expecting me to do part of the creative work for them.

Another writer, in a discussion on this topic, stated that he always sends his unfinished work to beta readers because what's the point of sending them the complete manuscript if he's only going to have to make changes to it after their comments? That made absolutely no sense to me. Isn't the point of beta readers to give feedback on the way the story flows organically and how they feel about the characters and storyline and other elements? You're a writer - you're supposed to do revision, both on your own and based on feedback.

Sorry if I sound like I have strong opinions about this. But I just don't think it's fair to subject people who have agreed to take their time and put their efforts into helping you with your book until you have a manuscript that is as complete as you can make it.

Djuna

It sounds more like there's been a lack of communication between author and beta. It's up to both parties to make sure the other knows what they're dealing with before anything changes hands. If you don't want anything other than a complete, ready-to-go ms, say so at the first contact.

As to the "misuse" of the term beta, my personal opinion is that using alpha/beta/first reader/whatever is more nitpicking than useful. What one calls the relationship is really unimportant. Enveloping the various terms in to one generalized "beta" just allows people to cut to the chase. You're looking for someone to read your work, and you let them know what stage you're at with it. They agree or not. Simple.
 
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