When writing in 3rd person, past tense.

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KemalKinali

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I'm working on my second book, this time a novel. I wrote my first book in 1st person past tense. It might be a stupid (and obvious) question, but when writing in 3rd person, and the MC is not present, how do I write then? The same way?

Let's say there is an MC, an X1 and X2. MC is not present. Can I say:

Inside the gas station, X1 made sure to lock all the doors and turn on the alarm system. Before he could get into his car, two people showed up along with X2... Bla bla bla.
 

KemalKinali

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That's what I'm confused about, too. The narrator is omniscient. So I'm guessing the MC doesn't have to be present for the narrator to narrate a scene that takes place without him?
It's a place where the MC works, but some men come and trash the place when they don't find him.
 

asroc

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As long as the book isn't supposed to be written entirely from the MC's perspective I don't see a problem with your approach.

Edit: In omniscient POV, this should be fine. An omniscient narrator knows stuff the characters don't. Such as what happens in places where they are not around.
 
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Jamesaritchie

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The question, I think, is why yu want to write this way? omniscient is not as easy as many think, and it's never an excuse for head-hopping. Unless you have a solid reason for using omniscient, I'd suggest you stick to third limited. I'm not icertain you know the purpose of omniscient.

Third limited, on the other hand, is told almost identically to first person, but with he/she, rather than I. Other than this, the rules are almost identical.
 

KemalKinali

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Can I still write about scenes in which the MC is not present? Just as I explained?
 

ap123

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Omniscient is not the same as 3rd person. If you're writing in omniscient, fine. If you're writing in 3rd person, you need to have more than one POV character in order to write scenes where the MC isn't present.
 

KemalKinali

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So I can't just write a scene without the MC? Just to tell what's happening there? I need to write it through someone in 3rd person? I don't get this. Why?
 

rwm4768

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As long as you make it clear what you're doing, it should be fine. Just make sure that the reader knows what's going on. I'd use a scene break. I don't like it when a narrative transitions away from the main character without warning.
 

Osulagh

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Omniscient is not the same as 3rd person. If you're writing in omniscient, fine. If you're writing in 3rd person, you need to have more than one POV character in order to write scenes where the MC isn't present.

Sorry, not exactly.

Omniscient means the narrator is all knowing, sometimes not needing a POV character to tell the story from.
There can be multiple types of omniscient, as in first person omniscient (where the first person narrator is like a god), and third person omniscient (where the narrator is telling a story that does not need to be grounded in a character's POV).

POV means the point of view--where the story is being relayed from (like a camera). This can be from the narrator's POV, which traditionally means either the first person, or a third omniscient narrator's POV.

Traditional third omniscient means that the "character" narrator (who's not the author) is narrating the story without referencing themselves as a character within that story. No "I" in the narrative, in a way. They can narrate as they wish, and can attach themselves to any character to follow their stories. Think of this as the "grandfather" narrative, where the grandfather is telling a tale.
Most people use omniscient to enforce the third narrator's voice, or to slide from one character to another without a scene break--which is sometimes needed with the other forms of third person.

Other than omniscient, there's primarily third limited--where the narrator is typically recessed, and a single character at a single moment in time is focused on. We're in that character's POV, being fed to us by the third person narrator. To change POVs from this, there's typically a scene break or new chapter so the reader is given the idea that the narrative is jumping to another character's shoulders.

With either third person POV, you can have how many/little character POVs as you wish.


KemalKinali, sorry but it's starting to seem you're confused on the simple terminology. Frankly, it also doesn't seem you've read a book written in third person. Most have different POVs--other than the MCs, most of the time as well. You can have how many different POVs as you wish, and the difference between omniscient and limited third person is where you make the distinction of how the POVs are connected/broken up in the narrative.
I highly urge you to pick up a couple books on writing, and possibly google first/third person narratives so you can get a better idea.
 
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Cathy C

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So I can't just write a scene without the MC? Just to tell what's happening there? I need to write it through someone in 3rd person? I don't get this. Why?

I think what the others are saying to you is that 3rd person POV is a different POV than omniscient. They're two totally different things. If you're writing in omniscient, it isn't possible to write in 3rd person. It might sound like third person, but it's always omniscient once you've injected the "all-knowing narrator." If the omniscient narrator wants to step away from one character to follow another, that's fine. :)

ETA: Cross-posted with Osulagh, but I'll let it stand.
 
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dondomat

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So I can't just write a scene without the MC? Just to tell what's happening there? I need to write it through someone in 3rd person? I don't get this. Why?

Because people will foam at the mouth at you that you're doing it wrong.

If you write like this in say Russian, or French, or German, or Spanish--it's OK--the readers, editors, and publishers there are fine with that. That's how the novel has worked since the early 19th century, with no interruption in technique.

For the contemporary English-speaking market though, you have to keep in mind a whole arsenal of petty restrictions and 'rules' which apparently keep a lot of people in business, and help a multitude of amateurs feel they know how this stuff works when they memorize these 'rules'. They would include Show Don't Tell, No Head-Hopping, No Tense Shifts, No Passive Sentences, and others. When writing for the English-speaking market, you have to know this stuff inside out, in order to appease the gatekeepers of the business.

It doesn't mean they are right--if you would slap in front of them a copy of Anna Karenina, The Brothers Karamazov, or Dune or even Cujo--and demanded they make these novels better by applying their precious little rules, like taking away the head-hopping and telling and passive sentences, etc.--they would try to change the subject--of course this would only destroy the novels. But--that doesn't change the fact that you--here and now--have to know these rules and quote them and apply them. Because that's the facts of life.

You can take a flying dump on all these rules--but only if you're an obvious semi-genius, like Stephen King, Mario Puzo, Frank Herbert, etc. If, however, a gatekeeper sees more than two-three faulty sentences or misspelled words in the sample you send over, and sees also that you don't follow the contemporary Anglosax petty rules of writing--they could jump to the conclusion that you don't know what you're doing. It's much safer to play by the rules.

Learn to Google, too. When people here say "omniscient narration" and "close 3rd person"--check these things out. Don't think a one-sentence answer can help you. It won't. Read definitions and examples online. Read books written in those modes. Compare. Choose your personal style.

Out of the kindness of his heart Uncle Jim (search for Uncle Jim Undilluted) has written pages upon pages, to help people who are just starting out, where you can learn the rules and tricks you need to learn. Invest the time--read all this. Other people also share what they have learned through years of hard work. Jim Butcher had some insights on the web somewhere--locate and check out. Brandon Sanderson the contemporary sword and sorcery giant also gives tips on writing. Many writers in the English-speaking world share their hard-won knowledge for free. You'd be a fool to not drink in from every source, if you're in this for real.

Better yet--stick to 1st person. Many great writers like Chandler always stuck with 1st person and it worked out great for them. Or, if you really want to go Tolstoy omniscient where you can show anything you like at any time--start working on being impeccable, otherwise people won't believe you know what you're doing.
 
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Manuel Royal

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So I can't just write a scene without the MC? Just to tell what's happening there? I need to write it through someone in 3rd person? I don't get this. Why?
Of course you can write scenes without your MC. It'll all be third person, but in the scenes from your MC's POV you'll be in his head, to whatever degree you want.

And in the scenes without your MC, you can still use third person, with several choices. You can use third person dramatic, in which you just describe what happens without getting inside a particular character's POV; or for that scene or chapter, you can pick a character's POV; maybe an antagonist or secondary character. Whatever feels right.

"Head-hopping" means shifting from one POV to another (giving the character's thoughts and feelings) within a single scene. That can actually work if you don't care about having a single definite main character, but usually it's annoying and weakens the reader's identification with any particular character.
 

Lauram6123

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I think the terminology may be making this too complicated. You just need to have multiple POV's so you can convey the action of your book when the MC is not in the room. When the MC is there, it's in his pov. When he's gone, then its in someone else's, like the guy who is trashing the MC's work place.

Just make sure you don't change pov in the middle of a scene, to make it easily understandable for the reader.
 

ishtar'sgate

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So I can't just write a scene without the MC? Just to tell what's happening there? I need to write it through someone in 3rd person? I don't get this. Why?

Is there any reason why you must maintain a single POV? No reason you can't use more if you want to. Plenty of writers do it. You just want to watch when you switch from one POV to another. Generally, starting a new chapter does the trick quite nicely.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Can I still write about scenes in which the MC is not present? Just as I explained?

Sure. You just change POV to whoever the scene is about. Doo you read many third person novels. Third limited just means you're limited to one character at a time, but you can use as many POV characters as you need.
 

guttersquid

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Can I still write about scenes in which the MC is not present?

Of course you can. Third person doesn't mean you're limited to one character's POV throughout. It means you're limited to one character's POV at a time. So, no, the MC does not have to be present in a scene.

I'd also add that even when the MC is present, the scene doesn't have to be written from the MC's POV. Each scene should be written from the POV that best serves the scene.

You can even switch POVs in the middle of a scene. Just give the reader a visual clue--a line break--that it's happening. Here's a classic Elmore Leonard-type example:

***
Jack pulled the car onto the gravel driveway. He wanted to keep Jane safe, so he told her to stay in the car, got out, and walked toward the house.

(Line break to switch to Jane's POV.)

Jane watched Jack step onto the porch, saw him draw his pistol and knock on the front door.
***

And not all information has to come from a character's POV. You as narrator can intrude anytime to impart information to the reader.
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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Of course you can. Third person doesn't mean you're limited to one character's POV throughout. It means you're limited to one character's POV at a time. So, no, the MC does not have to be present in a scene.

I'd also add that even when the MC is present, the scene doesn't have to be written from the MC's POV. Each scene should be written from the POV that best serves the scene.

You can even switch POVs in the middle of a scene. Just give the reader a visual clue--a line break--that it's happening. Here's a classic Elmore Leonard-type example:

***
Jack pulled the car onto the gravel driveway. He wanted to keep Jane safe, so he told her to stay in the car, got out, and walked toward the house.

(Line break to switch to Jane's POV.)

Jane watched Jack step onto the porch, saw him draw his pistol and knock on the front door.
***

And not all information has to come from a character's POV. You as narrator can intrude anytime to impart information to the reader.

First, guttersquid is absolutely right. You can do all these things, but that doesn't mean you necessarily should.

Switching POV in mid-scene is harder than it sometimes looks, it's doable, but you have to be careful that it doesn't come across as head-hopping. You need a clear transition, and if you do do something like that it's not advisable to change back.

I would be even more careful about using a narrator to impart information. You can do it at any time, but the moment you do you're invoking omniscient. Most third person POV is written in limited third these days, and in that perspective you can't just turn to the narrator to give the reader information. If you have an omniscient narrator it's fine, but be aware that using omniscient usually adds emotional distance between the reader and character, so it may not be a good idea.
 

BethS

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That's what I'm confused about, too. The narrator is omniscient. So I'm guessing the MC doesn't have to be present for the narrator to narrate a scene that takes place without him?
It's a place where the MC works, but some men come and trash the place when they don't find him.

Yes, you can do that. The omniscient narrator can show the reader anything, anywhere. The question you need to ask yourself is whether any scene like that is truly necessary for the reader to see. It may well be. Or not. Only you can judge.
 
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