Clarification on Third Person Limited

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DavidTShank

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So I guess I only realized the distinction of this POV and I'm editing my manuscript to get rid of any omniscience that might have sneaked in. But when you change points of view, does it have to coincide with a page break or chapter break?

I'm not concerned with the manuscript I'm working on now because I very seldom switch viewpoints (I think - I only just started). But what if I have the point of view switching on the fly? For example, if a guy and girl are on a date from the girl's POV and then she sees her ex walk in and it switches to the guy's POV for the confrontation about to happen, would that require a page break? Or can I just go into a new paragraph and have the guy's viewpoint kick in?
 

LJD

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Page break?
I use a scene break. (I mark these with a #.)
I have read books where the POV switches and there is no break, just a new paragraph, but personally, I wouldn't do this. I know some people have no problem with it, though.
 

noranne

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Does it have to be a page break? No. If you clearly break from one POV to another, and don't switch frequently (head hopping), then it might be okay.

However, I think it is easiest for the reader (and usually for writing, although of course it presents some frustrations) to accompany POV shifts with a scene or chapter break. This is the standard way to do it nowadays and helps prevent confusion.
 

rwm4768

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If you're writing in third person limited, you need to use a scene break. Most writers indicate this with a single centered # in the manuscript. Publishers will decide how they want to mark the scene break.

Changing character's heads without any kind of warning is confusing to the reader. I've seen writers pull it off, but it's difficult to do.
 

job

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So I guess I only realized the distinction of this POV and I'm editing my manuscript to get rid of any omniscience that might have sneaked in. But when you change points of view, does it have to coincide with a page break or chapter break?
I talk about changing POV here.

And here's lots of links to talk about POV in general.
 

dondomat

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From Stephen King's IT

Eddie zipped the bag the rest of the way closed and then left the bathroom, swinging it by his side. He was a short man with a timid, rabbity sort of face. Much of his hair was gone; what was left grew in listless, piebald patches. The weight of the bag pulled him noticeably to one side.
An extremely large woman was climbing slowly to the second floor. Eddie could hear the stairs creak protestingly under her.
'What are you DOOOOOOOOING?'
Eddie did not need a shrink to tell him that he had, in a sense, married his mother. Myra Kaspbrak was huge. She had only been big when Eddie married her five years ago, but he sometimes thought his subconscious had seen the potential for hugeness in her; God knew his own mother had been a whopper. And she looked somehow more huge than ever as she reached the second-floor landing. She was wearing a white nightgown which swelled, comberlike, at bosom and hip. Her face, devoid of make-up, was white and shiny. She looked badly frightened.
'I have to go away for awhile,' Eddie said.
'What do you mean, you have to go away? What was that telephone call?'
'Nothing,' he said, fleeing abruptly down the hallway to their walk-in closet. He put the tote-bag down, opened the closet's fold-back door, and raked aside the half-dozen identical black suits which hung there, as conspicuous as a thundercloud among the other, more brightly colored, clothes. He always wore one of the black suits when he was working. He bent into the closet, smelling mothballs and wool, and pulled out one of the suitcases from the back. He opened it and began throwing clothes in.
Her shadow fell over him.
'What's this about, Eddie? Where are you going? You tell me!'
'I can't tell you.'
She stood there, watching him, trying to decide what to say next, or what to do. The thought of simply bundling him into the closet and then standing with her back against the door until this madness had passed crossed her mind, but she was unable to bring herself to do it, although she certainly could have; she was three inches taller than Eddie and outweighed him by a hundred pounds. She couldn't think of what to do or say, because this was so utterly unlike him. She could not have been any more dismayed and frightened if she had walked into the television room and found their new big-screen TV floating in the air.
'You can't go,' she heard herself saying. 'You promised you'd get me Al Pacino's autograph.' It was an absurdity - God knew it was - but at this point even an absurdity was better than nothing.
From Stephen King's The Stand:

She got up, went to the window, and tugged it up.

"You're welcome to stay as long as you like, Larry. I'm not so good at expressing myself, maybe, but I'm glad to see you. We didn't say goodbye very well. There were harsh words." She showed him her face, still harsh, but also full of a terrible, reluctant love. "For my part, I regret them. I only said them because I love you. I never knew how to say that just right, so I said it in other ways."

"That's all right," he said, looking down at the table. The flush was back. He could feel it. "Listen, I'll chip in for stuff."

"You can if you want. If you don't want to, you don't have to. I'm working. Thousands aren't. You're still my son."

He thought of the stiffening cat, half in and half out of the trash can, and of Dewey the Deck, smilingly filling the hospitality bowls, and he suddenly burst into tears. As his hands blurred double in the wash of them, he thought that this should be her bit, not his-nothing had gone the way he thought it would, nothing. She had changed after all. So had he, but not as he had suspected. An unnatural reversal had occurred; she had gotten bigger and he had somehow gotten smaller. He had not come home to her because he had to go somewhere. He had come home because he was afraid and he wanted his mother.

She stood by the open window, watching him. The white curtains fluttered in on the damp breeze, obscuring her face, not hiding it entirely but making it seem ghostly. Traffic sounds came in through the window. She took the handkerchief from the bodice of her dress and walked over to the table and put it in one of his groping hands. There was something hard in Larry. She could have taxed him with it, but to what end? His father had been a softie, and in her heart of hearts she knew it was that which had really sent him to the grave; MaxUnderwood had been done in more by lending credit than taking it. So when it came to that hard streak? Who did Larry have to thank? Or blame?
 
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MaCain

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Two popular romance novelists who successfully pull this off without the scene breaks, or any other indication are Nora Roberts and Julie Garwood. They do it so seamlessly you don't even realize they've done it. Suddenly you're just inside another POV and it's not jarring or confusing.

I really, really wanted to write this way when I started out, but 1) a lot of agents requested my full manuscript only to say the writing was good but they couldn't get down with the head hopping 2) at the end of the day, I simply couldn't pull it off.

I read several books from both writers with the sole objective of learning their POV techniques. One thing I noticed (primarily in Garwood's writing) is that she'll switch back and forth, but she's consistent in how many lines/paragraphs she switches. I'm guessing this is effective because it's balanced, and not showing more of one POV than the other. The other thing I noticed was that she makes it clear the POV has switched by a piece of body language, paired with a piece of narrative that could only come from one of the characters. i.e. their opinion of what the other person had just said or done.

It seemed that Nora Roberts switches less frequently, but the same distinct switch of POV with body language and narrative was present.

You should never hesitate to try a different way of writing just because it's challenging, but you should be aware that the majority of readers, agents and editors don't enjoy this type of POV.
 

dondomat

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You should never hesitate to try a different way of writing just because it's challenging, but you should be aware that the majority of readers, agents and editors don't enjoy this type of POV.

I would have phrased it, "you should be aware that the majority of readers, agents and editors have been conditioned that it is fashionable and classy to say that they don't enjoy this type of POV" but otherwise, yes, what MaCain said.

In romance, Daniel Steele, for example, one also sees how "telling" instead of "showing" works perfectly well (or in epic thrillers of the Sidney Sheldon/Mario Puzo type), but, as with the dreaded POV switches, people have been conditioned that it is fashionable and classy to either show cultivated contempt or whip themselves up into righteous frenzies when seeing "telling", so in both cases, unless you're super brilliant and your MC takes one's breath away, stick to the currently fashionable "correct writing" "rules". Dan Brown does.
 
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noranne

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I would have phrased it, "you should be aware that the majority of readers, agents and editors have been conditioned that it is fashionable and classy to say that they don't enjoy this type of POV" but otherwise, yes, what MaCain said.

In romance, Daniel Steele, for example, one also sees how "telling" instead of "showing" works perfectly well (or in epic thrillers of the Sidney Sheldon/Mario Puzo type), but, as with the dreaded POV switches, people have been conditioned that it is fashionable and classy to either show cultivated contempt or whip themselves up into righteous frenzies when seeing "telling", so in both cases, unless you're super brilliant and your MC takes one's breath away, stick to the currently fashionable "correct writing" "rules". Dan Brown does.

You can say that about anything, though. I agree that writing "rules" are more like guidelines, but I don't think it means that people are just sheep for preferring them. Modern novels are written in a certain style. Breaking those style rules often confuses readers or is just found to be generally distasteful because it doesn't feel "right." It's not the only way to write novels, but to pretend that you are writing in a vacuum where agents, editors, and readers don't have preferences and likes is not very productive.
 

MaCain

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Well said, noranne.

Whatever style of POV you choose needs to be the best fit for your story. If you're going to switch POVs several times within a scene, just make sure there's a good reason for it.

As a reader, I'm super picky. I always have been, even before I considered becoming a writer. Sometimes I like the switching POVs and sometimes I can't stand it. It's all about execution and it's just one of those things that's extremely difficult to pull off. I'll risk making people gasp, and admit I feel the same way about first person. Everyone wants to write in first person these days. And man, I've seen very, very few recently published authors do it well.
 

Kerosene

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You can only use a chapter or scene break to change POVs when you're staying strictly to Third Person Limited. Make a new chapter or insert a # to note there's a break.

You can also have transitions between the character's POVs without a break, but this is a form of Omniscient and breaks several reasons why Limited is sometimes favored. I suggest if you're trying to write in mostly Third Limited and you'd like to do this, avoid it as much as possible because it can startle and confuse the reader. Ask beta-readers if the rapid-fire scene breaks are disorientating, or see if you can just write it from one POV.
 

WeaselFire

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If you clearly break from one POV to another...
This. As long as the reader will easily understand the point of view has shifted, any way you change it is acceptable. New chapter, extra paragraph spacing or any other indicator works.

Which is one reason that third person limited is hard for many writers to do well. Or maybe, easy for many writers to do poorly.

Jeff
 

BethS

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So I guess I only realized the distinction of this POV and I'm editing my manuscript to get rid of any omniscience that might have sneaked in. But when you change points of view, does it have to coincide with a page break or chapter break?

I'm not concerned with the manuscript I'm working on now because I very seldom switch viewpoints (I think - I only just started). But what if I have the point of view switching on the fly? For example, if a guy and girl are on a date from the girl's POV and then she sees her ex walk in and it switches to the guy's POV for the confrontation about to happen, would that require a page break? Or can I just go into a new paragraph and have the guy's viewpoint kick in?

You'll get varying opinions on this, but in mine, POV jumps like that are jarring and potentially confusing.
 

BethS

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Two popular romance novelists who successfully pull this off without the scene breaks, or any other indication are Nora Roberts and Julie Garwood. They do it so seamlessly you don't even realize they've done it. Suddenly you're just inside another POV and it's not jarring or confusing.

Reader preference at work here, obviously, but if I find myself suddenly in another POV, that is jarring and off-putting. If there's going to be a POV shift, I want to see it happen, rather than be rudely plucked out of one character's head and thrust into another without warning.

ymmv, of course.
 

Bufty

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GuitarShank -

You are confusing yourself by trying to be clever and speaking about Omniscient 'sneaking in' as if you fully understand what POV is when you clearly don't. Third Person Limited and Omniscient shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath- they are two completely different POV's.

And I get the feeling you are switching POV's simply because you can rather than because it is necessary or adds anything to the reader's following the story.

Read more about POV so you begin to understand just what a powerful tool it is. Nothing wrong with clear POV switches in Third Person Limited but be aware that the longer you remain in the one character's POV the more powerful the POV becomes.
 

DavidTShank

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Okay, this brought up a whole new question then. Do all of my "scenes" have to have a scene break? When I said "page break" I was referring to an extra bit of space between paragraphs. You know, hitting enter twice.

See, I do scene breaks occasionally only whenever a lot of time has passed or I've moved onto a different character in a different place for a time. Or when the setting changes suddenly. But I'm new to manuscript format...

I read a book recently (Ringworld by Larry Niven) which has probably five to ten scene breaks per chapter. It's actually a little annoying sometimes seeing that extra space between paragraphs so often - even if it does make for a good stopping point when I'm pressed for time. It's mainly annoying because there are so many times that the scene break won't change POVs and it just picks up where the last paragraph left off.

I talk about changing POV here.

This was pretty helpful, though. It more or less answered my question. So I can conclude that it's possible to do this without a scene break if you do it right. I'll have to decide what to do when I get around to my next novel.
 

DavidTShank

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GuitarShank -

You are confusing yourself by trying to be clever and speaking about Omniscient 'sneaking in' as if you fully understand what POV is when you clearly don't. Third Person Limited and Omniscient shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath- they are two completely different POV's.

And I get the feeling you are switching POV's simply because you can rather than because it is necessary or adds anything to the reader's following the story.

Read more about POV so you begin to understand just what a powerful tool it is. Nothing wrong with clear POV switches in Third Person Limited but be aware that the longer you remain in the one character's POV the more powerful the POV becomes.

In Third Person Limited, the narrator can jump into one character's head at a time. Be it per scene, per chapter, per whole section of the book, whatever. In Third Person Omniscient, the narrator has free reign on whose thoughts he conveys to the reader at any time. Billy was thinking this but Johnny was thinking that.

I get the difference, but I also get that it's easy to fall into a trap of accidentally using omniscient because of the way we view scenes ourselves. Or because of the way movies and TV are presented.

I'm not talking about trying to use omniscient voice. I want to avoid it. I want to use limited because it'll let me get into specific heads for a time.

I'm not switching POVs just because I can. I'm doing it because it would give a fresh viewpoint, and it would improve on the story based on who's observing it.

Each of my scenes is meant for one character. But what if the transition between scenes is so close together that they happen back to back in the same place but from the POV of different characters? That's what my specific question is about.
 

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If you're writing in third person limited, you need to use a scene break. Most writers indicate this with a single centered # in the manuscript. Publishers will decide how they want to mark the scene break.

This. The two empty lines or an asterisk or three asteriskses or row of tiny skulls will be the decision of the publisher. They decide how to show the scene break. Maybe just with 2-3 white lines. But you--you better mark them with clearly visible markers--for example ####--so that the publisher knows where the shift is intended to happen. Simply leaving a space is a bad choice because format shifts around every time someone opens the file on another computer and accidental white lines can appear anywhere. To ensure there's no confusion--x marks the spot. Some publishers clearly state in their submission guidelines how they want the scene breaks to be marked--when submitting you will follow every guideline to the letter, including this.
 
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Bufty

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We avoid 'accidentally using omniscient' simply by recognising that we have done it, and by disciplining ourselves not to do it.

The situation you refer to in the final paragraph is covered by a # and a fresh paragraph worded so the reader knows the POV is changed.


"So shove it, and get out. Now!" (Let us assume that we know this is in George's POV)

#

John staggered back, stunned. Tears burned his eyes, blurring his vision. "Don't you dare talk to me like that."

Is that what you mean? Not perfect but.. All it requires is clarity so the reader knows the POV has been changed to that of John. Only John would know that tears 'burned' his eyes or blurred his vision.

And we then remain in John's POV for a good section, now. Whatever you do, avoid switching rapidly back and forth or it can become very bitty. It's also, in the example I gave, unnecessary because giving George's observations and reactions can achieve the same effect.


=GuitarShank;8932462]In Third Person Limited, the narrator can jump into one character's head at a time. Be it per scene, per chapter, per whole section of the book, whatever. In Third Person Omniscient, the narrator has free reign on whose thoughts he conveys to the reader at any time. Billy was thinking this but Johnny was thinking that.

I get the difference, but I also get that it's easy to fall into a trap of accidentally using omniscient because of the way we view scenes ourselves. Or because of the way movies and TV are presented.

I'm not talking about trying to use omniscient voice. I want to avoid it. I want to use limited because it'll let me get into specific heads for a time.

I'm not switching POVs just because I can. I'm doing it because it would give a fresh viewpoint, and it would improve on the story based on who's observing it. It's frequently not necessary because careful crafting and use of the existing POV character and reporting of his observations of the other character's actions and reactions can often convey the same effect.

Each of my scenes is meant for one character. But what if the transition between scenes is so close together that they happen back to back in the same place but from the POV of different characters? That's what my specific question is about.
 
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BethS

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But what if the transition between scenes is so close together that they happen back to back in the same place but from the POV of different characters? That's what my specific question is about.

Personally, I would still use a scene break. It's just a matter of finding a good place to pause the momentum of the scene so that you can gracefully switch drivers.

P.S. It's "free rein," not "free reign." The metaphor comes from the idea of giving a horse a free (loose) rein so it can go where it wants.
 

DavidTShank

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Personally, I would still use a scene break. It's just a matter of finding a good place to pause the momentum of the scene so that you can gracefully switch drivers.

P.S. It's "free rein," not "free reign." The metaphor comes from the idea of giving a horse a free (loose) rein so it can go where it wants.

Sounds reasonable. I'll apply this and Bufty's advice, then. Staying with one character longer would be better overall for the story, I can see now.

Also, whoops. I was writing quickly because the time for me to leave for work was fast approaching.
 

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Two popular romance novelists who successfully pull this off without the scene breaks, or any other indication are Nora Roberts and Julie Garwood.
That may be bending it a little, some readers, myself included, wouldn't agree. Nora Roberts has lost me on occasion for just this reason. At least in her work, it almost seems like a mistake at times. I've only read part of one Julie Garwood work, she lost me completely somewhere in the first few chapters.

Jeff
 

Reziac

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I talk about changing POV here.

And you say, with fine examples,
C) You can also change POV in the middle of a scene without starting a new chapter and without inserting a hiatus. This is so exciting. You change POV right in the scene itself with everybody watching.

I do this occasionally; I call it "rotating the camera". Sometimes the focus of a scene just naturally shifts, and rather than fight with it, or resort to artificial POV constructs, I let the camera move.

Or I might do something like... the POV character flounces out of the room, but the scene continues with the remaining characters for a while, so now the POV settles on one of those left behind... it's so sad. :cry:

My feeling is it's better to let POV migrate naturally than to strap it to someone's forehead when they're desperately trying to escape further notice.
 
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