Four Simple Ways to Expand the Novel's Wordcount

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dondomat

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That one you really need to be careful about. Inconsequential sub-actions don't need to be described unless those sub-actions are somehow significant. Otherwise it just creates overwritten clutter and slows the pace to a crawl.

Somehow significant is in the eye of the beholder. Details in one's home or clothes or car betray one's character. Movement and speaking and non-verbal nuances also betray one's character. Details and nuances of city life show the character of the city. Whether the passenger in the plane likes the cool glass of the porthole on his forehead or not shows his mood and emotional disposition in general. Whether he notices the stars of frost on the glass also shows his mood and emotional disposition in general.

To some 'significant' is who will kick whose ass, to another--who will hook up with whom, to a third--was that specific word in the sentence of that character used ironically or not, to a fourth--how the exterior of the evil corporate headquarters matches the exterior of its CEO--do they overlap or is there a clash?

You can't objectively measure significance with a significance-o-scope--it's a fluid subjective thing and if you've succeeded in presenting an interesting story then its elements are significant, and if you've failed, it hardly would have been saved by shaving off the mention of the state of the drapes in the old spinster's home.

The overall established rhythmis in the eye of the reader, meaning context with a capital C. If your book starts out in a specific way, and the reader reads it because he/she likes the story, then the prose style is accepted by the reader as a given. If you start out sparse and then continue that way--it will be accepted. If you start out dense--it will also be accepted. Just don't do bait and switch--start the book in one style, and after chapter two change it completely--that can be annoying. Unless rapid shifts in style are part of the book's style, which is a different, and much rarer thing.
 
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BethS

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There is a danger in thinking my story is automatically enhanced by puffing up detail and descriptions and back story.

Padding isn't good if you already have enough "padding." But some stories may be too sparse on description and other things dodomat mentioned. I don't think we can assume that everyone out there is over-describing. I see plenty of writing samples with talking heads that could use a bit of description of setting/character actions/body language/whatever to bring the scene to life.


So I don't think it's about padding. It's about fleshing out the story. Putting some meat on the bones.

None of those are done to expand the word count, and not one of them is remotely simple.

All of the above statements are true. The trick is knowing when they apply.

Somehow significant is in the eye of the beholder. Details in one's home or clothes or car betray one's character. Movement and speaking and non-verbal nuances also betray one's character. Details and nuances of city life show the character of the city. Whether the passenger in the plane likes the cool glass of he porthole on his forehead or not shows his mood and emotional disposition in general. Whether he notices the stars of frost on the glass also shows his mood and emotional disposition in general.

Sure--but it's possible to overdo it. There's always a balance to be struck between too much and not enough. So sometimes we need those extra details to show something--and sometimes they just clog things up. The writer has to be the judge of this, and some writers are better at it than others.

The overall established rhythmis in the eye of the reader, meaning context with a capital C. If your book starts out in a specific way, and the reader reads it because he/she likes the story, then the prose style is accepted by the reader as a given. If you start out sparse and then continue that way--it will be accepted. If you start out dense--it will also be accepted. Just don't do bait and switch--start the book in one style, and after chapter two change it completely--that can be annoying. Unless rapid shifts in style are part of the book's style, which is a different, and much rarer thing.

Agreed.
 
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Reziac

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I have nothing to add to the larger thread, but I just want to say I think we have the same grey goo. It wasn't until I started reading AW and other writing websites that I realized other people needed descriptions. They needed to picture the setting, they didn't like white room syndrome, etc.

I don't even know what my own characters look like. Some of them have no face and no body. And white room? Sometimes I don't even have a room. :D

That there's more than one of us here with colorless goo probably indicates there are a lot more of 'em out there :D I too often have only a vague notion of what my characters look like. I'm more likely to have a strong idea of what a setting looks like, but it arrives out of the blue, not as a result of being described. For whom is it a white room? Evidently not us!

At the far extreme, there's a fantasy series (I think presently 5 books; I wandered away about the middle of book 2) where EVERY description is multi-layered, detailed, and lush, and just about everything is described. It asked that I catalog and subcatalog absolutely EVERYTHING the POV character observed (and he was very observant!) It wouldn't just describe what someone was wearing; in the same sentence it would describe their garment, its buttons, the button material, its origins, and possibly even reference the people who made it, each with at least a couple well-chosen adjectives. (Very nearly a literal example.) If all this were pared down to what I find comfortably descriptive reading (or at least into sentences that could be diagrammed without requiring a contortionist), the five books would become one or two. It's lovely as isolated examples, but as a constant barrage it became tedious, and there was too much of it to simply skip, because it was everywhere. So I wound up skipping out... I really liked the MC (even if I didn't entirely buy their society) but the style of description went from unusual to annoying over time, and one day I put it down and didn't go back. (And by now have spaced on the author's name, which is just as well.) But obviously someone likes it, or there wouldn't be five-plus of 'em out there.

Conversely the other day I tripped over some samples of Bulwar-Lytton's work, and was surprised to see that he made fairly dense and comfortable work of descriptions, rather than being the overly-flowery bombast the infamous contest would have us believe. Well, at least as isolated examples. Dunno what I'd think of the whole. I may have to try some. :D

One may argue that it's showing the bigger picture that should be done, instead of taking elements out of context

But it's kinda like cooking... salt adds savor to food, but salt all by itself tells you nothing about the meal.

...How do you know the cigarette-rolling and slobbering scene isn't hot foreplay from the point of view of a 1930's tobacco aficionado?

Out of context, we don't. If that's what it's about, dandy! If it's really about his career as a bank robber -- we gonna get the same kind of description of his gun as he threatens the clerk?? (I already left that party!)

Back then the 'real' authors of sardonic understated sincerity are Fitzgerald, O'Hara, and Hemingway

And at that other extreme, and it's not because of the minimalism but because of the overall tone -- I find Hemingway boring, flat, tiresome, and excessively fond of his own navel. I can't recall what I've read of the others (probably haven't since high school, over 40 years ago) but Hemingway stuck with me as an evil thing to inflict on hapless students, refreshed by a recent discussion hereabouts where some short of his came up and in a spasm of masochistic folly, I read it so as to grok the rest of the discussion. My brain still hurts.
 
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dondomat

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For those scarred by confrontation with the classics at an inappropriate age, or simply inappropriate time of life, and who are torn between vague curiosity about the supposedly bombastic writing on one hand and on the other--the dread of starting on a pretentious and meaningless exercise, I heartily recommend:
1. Dashiel Hammett as "Hemingwayish prose techniques but with an actual adventure plot with a beginning, middle, and resolution";
2. Raymond Chandler as "Fitzgeraldish prose techniques but with an actual adventure plot with a beginning, middle, and resolution";
3. Ross Macdonald as "Nabokov-depth psychology around the adventures of private detective Lew Archer";
4. Len Deighton as "Textbook minimalist stylish yet transparent prose techniques around the adventures of spy Harry Palmer"
5. Jim Thompson as "Dostoevsky-depth psychology around the hardboiled adventures of detectives, killers, drunks, and hobos."
 
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Reziac

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That one you really need to be careful about. Inconsequential sub-actions don't need to be described unless those sub-actions are somehow significant. Otherwise it just creates overwritten clutter and slows the pace to a crawl.

Errrryep. Useful description (be that spare or lush) guides you through the prose by illuminating your surroundings. A dusty clutter of verbiage flings sand in your eyes, grabs you by the ankle, trips your brain, and runs you into the walls.

For those scarred by confrontation with the classics at an inappropriate age,

Someone once pointed out that the difference between "classics" and "lost to history" was whether the peasants with flaming pitchforks happened to miss burning it.

I contend that a great many more readers would be made, with more love of the classics, if teachers would select those surviving works that would interest school-age kids, rather than those most hoary on the pedestal of antiquity and of appeal primarily to pedants of verbal dissection. (Isn't inflicting The Scarlet Letter on 7th graders 'cruel and unusual'?? I mean, it could have at least been The Marble Faun, if one must read something loaded with symbolism that moves at a glacial pace.)

3. Ross Macdonald as "Nabokov-depth psychology around the adventures of private detective Lew Archer";

I've read a Ross Macdonald or two, so long ago that I remember nothing else. But that was 45+ years ago, back when I read anything with words.

5. Jim Thompson as "Dostoevsky-depth psychology around the hardboiled adventures of detectives, killers, drunks, and hobos."

A mere 10 or 12 years ago, well after 'becoming a writer' made me more narrow-minded selective in my reading habits, I read Crime and Punishment in a single session (sitting on the floor, no less). I'm not sure what that signifies; it could indicate I'd sat there so long that I couldn't get up. ;) (211,591 words!!)
 
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BethS

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Useful description (be that spare or lush) guides you through the prose by illuminating your surroundings. A dusty clutter of verbiage flings sand in your eyes, grabs you by the ankle, trips your brain, and runs you into the walls.

Heh. Yeah.
 

blacbird

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3. Ross Macdonald as "Nabokov-depth psychology around the adventures of private detective Lew Archer";

I find Ross Macdonald to be one of the most dreadful prose narrative stylists I've ever encountered, largely owing to his addiction to ridiculous simile and metaphor.

You want crisp and astute psychology in a mystery/thriller writer, try his unrelated (and genuine* namesake, John D. Macdonald.

4. Len Deighton as "Textbook minimalist stylish yet transparent prose techniques around the adventures of spy Harry Palmer"

I liked Deighton's breakthrough novel The Ipcress File greatly. I never found any of the sequels to be even close to as good. He was much less "minimal" than just clumsy. Read some Graham Greene. Or Geoffrey Household. Or Eric Ambler.

As a general comment, your comment comes off as snobbily derisive of writers who don't write in the mystery/thriller box of genre.

caw
 

dondomat

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I find Ross Macdonald to be one of the most dreadful prose narrative stylists I've ever encountered, largely owing to his addiction to ridiculous simile and metaphor.

You want crisp and astute psychology in a mystery/thriller writer, try his unrelated (and genuine* namesake, John D. Macdonald.

...........

As a general comment, your comment comes off as snobbily derisive of writers who don't write in the mystery/thriller box of genre.

caw

And I find John D Macdonald a superficial amicable stylist who only fakes depth, in spite of his many admirable technique-level qualities. Different tastes.

And now to do the next most popular thing in the internets after porno--"no that's not what I meant" responses to "surely you didn't mean this" challenges: "the comment" was directed at the hypothetical people scarred in childhood by "real lit about nothing happening, slowly", and the alternatives were presented, to them, in a way which would show that those choices do indeed offer the things which people tend to find most lacking in real lit about nothing happening, slowly--i.e. choices for people who say "wake me up when some sort of plot kicks in".

Of course, the authors recommended were only in the vintage hardboiled pulp/vintage Brit spy adventure genres, so readers and writers and editors of all other genres are welcome to petition me to include representatives of their genres, should they have the natural wish to not be left out of my stunningly fashionable and opinion-forming and career-affecting forum posts. I accept petitioners on the first moon of every autumn--gifts must be placed at the feet of my throne and the jade ring on my left hand must be kissed before negotiations can be opened.

Now, if anyone is in the mood to play the knight in shining armor to my dragon and defender of the downtrodden to my tyrant, you're welcome to find hints of arrogant contempt throbbing sinisterly under the surface of sentences like "people who say "wake me up when some sort of plot kicks in"." Are such people second class? Surely dondomat doesn't believe they should be confined to manual labor career paths and have only half a vote? Stay tuned for another exciting...
 
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dondomat

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OK, I may be getting carried away again here, post tone-wise--let me just sneak away for a few hours and flesh out some chapters...
 

Reziac

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You want crisp and astute psychology in a mystery/thriller writer, try his unrelated (and genuine* namesake, John D. Macdonald.

And I find John D Macdonald a superficial amicable stylist who only fakes depth, in spite of his many admirable technique-level qualities.

My brain hurts.

Personally I am weary of depth, themes, symbolism, padded descriptions, and anything else that detracts from the reasons I read fiction: entertainment, relaxation, relief from the day-to-day, escape. If I wanted to dissect fiction for hidden meanings, or work hard at reading it, I'd go back to the 7th grade. (At least in the 8th grade we got to read The Scarlet Pimpernel.)

Not only do tastes vary, but also motivations for reading.
 
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