Cliffhanger Endings

Status
Not open for further replies.

ChaosTitan

Around
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
15,463
Reaction score
2,886
Location
The not-so-distant future
Website
kellymeding.com
Plot-wise, book 1 is about advancing all of the major characters towards the front-lines of the coming war, and the last 1/3 or 1/4 of it concludes with those characters reaching that conflict and things starting to happen there, including a climactic fight between the two leading characters.

The epic fight does occur, and you aren't left wondering who wins. You know that neither of them win outright. Also, the war does begin by the end of the book, but it doesn't go very far.

What you don't know is the outcome of the war, or what becomes of the two characters who clash in the end, as they end up stranded in another reality with a trickster figure trying to get them to resolve their differences. See my first post above for more specifics.

To FOTS: It ain't Wheel of Time.

This still doesn't tell me the main conflict of your book. When someone asks you what your book is about, just the one book, what do you tell them?

"It's about advancing characters toward war." Boring.

"It's about two princes leading their armies to the brink of war." Better, but still generic. And boring.

"It's about two princes, one of whom is in love with a rival princess, who after years of bitter feuding over cattle grazing lands between their kingdoms, are pushed to the brink of war when...."
 

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,029
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
It's interesting, though, because I'm a bit surprised by what you said. I assume that people read books mainly for the characters.

I do read for the characters. But I like to see them doing something. :D Their actions in the plot should reveal their character. If character one sees a spider and faints, then I know they are afraid of spiders. If they are up against insurmountable odds but shout 'Maybe today is a good day to die' and lay about with their sword, that tells me boatloads about them.

I started reading a trilogy not so long ago where the first book was basically just a prologue to set up book 2. I did not read book 2.

Book one needs a plot and at least partial resolution, or people won't buy book two.
 

FOTSGreg

Today is your last day.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
7,760
Reaction score
947
Location
A land where FTL travel is possible and horrible t
Website
Www.fire-on-the-suns.com
SoloArtist wrote, To FOTS: It ain't Wheel of Time.

It don't matter (okay, to be grammatically correct, it doesn't matter). It does not have enough action in it, from what you've told us, to be interesting enough to extend for 3 books (or to get me to pay my hard-earned money for even the first).

Look, I'm not trying to piss you off, but you're saying you're trying to piss off your readers. DON'T DO IT! Writing a book that is 3/4ths character development and 1/4 action is an absolutely sure way to get your readers to throw the thing through the nearest window and never, ever, spend their money on anything else you ever publish again.

It's virtually guaranteed to have an agent saying "Are you f-ing kidding?" and plopping the manuscript over onto the reject pile.

Action, friend. Action is what sells in genre literature (well, except for romance). Get your war going up front right away. Do your character development along the way in between action scenes.
 

FOTSGreg

Today is your last day.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
7,760
Reaction score
947
Location
A land where FTL travel is possible and horrible t
Website
Www.fire-on-the-suns.com
SoloArtist wrote, I'm a bit surprised by what you said. I assume that people read books mainly for the characters.

Okay, here I might be a bit offensive, but it's something you've GOT to hear.

People read for entertainment. They don't read for character, for plot, for escape, or for anything else logical. They read to be entertained.


Some of the items mentioned above, like plot, character, escape, etc., are part and parcel of that entertainment, but they have to be combined in a defined and calculated way by the writer in order to be entertaining to the reader.

No one plops their $10 down at a theater in order to watch a movie that is solely about some particular "character" or trait. People pay money to be entertained and to see what the characters do, not who the character is. The character defines themselves by their actions, not by anything the writer tries to tell the reader about them.

Show the reader who the character is by having them act, not by telling us who we're supposed to think they are.

Characters define themselves by their actions in active situations. We, the reader, get to form our own opinions thereafter.
 

katiemac

Five by Five
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
11,521
Reaction score
1,662
Location
Yesterday
Solo, I have to agree with Chaos here. 3/4 character development is a lot of character development. It sounds like you're starting in the wrong place in your novel and including a lot of unnecessary information/back story.

I recently had this discussion with another board member. Give your readers some credit. If you can write them well enough, we'll know your characters inside and out in just a few scenes. Or at the very least, the character qualities necessary to the climax.

Writing a trilogy is very attractive. But without a good book one, you can't sell book two. And a book one that doesn't have a resolved conflict is not an easy sell.
 

katiemac

Five by Five
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
11,521
Reaction score
1,662
Location
Yesterday
I'm curious, this is strictly a brainstorming question and whatnot.

What would happen if a reader picked up your series at book two? She did not read book one. She does not know book one exists. She starts reading about two opposing guys who are stuck in an alternate reality together.

Will the reader be confused?
 

katiemac

Five by Five
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
11,521
Reaction score
1,662
Location
Yesterday
It's interesting because I was on the "Ask the Agent" subforum earlier today and found this thread about "An unpublished author with a trilogy." Much, if not most, of the advice to him there was positive.

Notice that the OP said each novel has a standalone storyline, even though it is obvious the story is part of something bigger. That means no cliffhangers.
 

katiemac

Five by Five
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
11,521
Reaction score
1,662
Location
Yesterday
Good question, and thanks for asking it.

My first instinct is that it would come down to how I began book two, and that it wouldn't have to be too confusing. If nothing else, the dialogue between them could be very revealing, and an argument between them could start the book. I think that the full richness of the characters would not come across to the reader if they hadn't read book one, but I think I could make them rich enough after a few chapters.

In general do you think you should want the reader to be able to pick up book two or three and read it as a standalone experience?

That's a tough call. There are some series that can work like this and some series that can't. (Harry Potter vs. Lord of the Rings, although yes, Lord of the Rings was initially pubbed as one book.) If you look at Potter, books 1, 2 and 3 standalone, but once you get to the fourth book it starts getting tricky in terms cliffhangers. Still, each book (perhaps with the exception of the sixth one - which would act like your book two) has a solid contained storyline.

Like you said, it probably has a lot to do with the way you write it. I think you're better off with book 3 not standing alone (relying heavily on books 1 and 2) than you are with each Books 1 and 2 not standing alone. You probably even have some more leeway with Book 2 than you do with Book 1 to have more of a cliffhanger ending. Nonetheless, I don't think a new reader of Book 2 should be confused right off the bat because it suggests you left too much hanging in Book 1. There might be details here and there that might not add up because they missed book 1, but those things shouldn't come in to play right at the beginning. You also don't want to cater to new readers so much that readers of Book 1 are bored.

Now, that being said, I can still see this going both ways. If you say 1) "A new reader to book 2 will understand perfectly," then you could make the argument Book 1 is irrelevant to the overall story. If you say, "No, a new reader would be terribly confused," then you run the risk of losing readers who do not know they've stumbled into a series.

It's a balancing act, for sure.
 
Last edited:

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,785
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com
Please don't take The Lord of the Rings as the model of a trilogy. It's actually one very long novel printed in three volumes.

Better models of true trilogies are Mutiny on the Bounty, Men Against the Sea, and Pitcairn's Island by Nordhoff and Hall, or The Three Musketeers, Twenty Years After, and The Vicomte de Bragelonne by Alexandre Dumas.
 

Alphabeter

Player of the Letters
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
948
Reaction score
205
Location
NW Iowa
Precisely.
And note the timeline: three months. Much shorter than readers of a book have to wait for the sequel.

Another thing to note is that MOVIES do not end in cliffhangers; TV shows do.


Back to the Future 2&3; released eight months apart. The first ended with "To be continued" as a hope it would create a clamor and enable funding for more. The second was tagged with "to be concluded" as a deliberate cliffhanger. Many theaters ran the short teaser trailer of the third immediately after--as the producers intended in order to build up interest.

The Matrix 2&3 were released a year apart. Again, like BTTF, they were filmed concurrently and designed to fill out a trilogy originating from a once stand-alone first movie.

The Lord of the Rings trilogy were each released a year apart. They were all filmed together and deliberately edited to create separate cliffhangers apart from those in the books.

Patriot Games was the second "Jack Ryan" book made into a movie. It was the first time Harrison Ford played the character. At the end of the movie, there is a very deliberate cliffhanger regarding one of his children. If one had read other Tom Clancy novels, one knew the answer. The movie-only fans had to wait until the funding, filming and release of Clear & Present Danger.

In such an example, the readers were immediately satisfied and the film goers had to wait. It is a risky proposition for movies to have cliffhangers, unless the entire project is funded to completion, notwithstanding The Perils of Pauline. TPoP weren't traditional cliffhangers as they always showed the resolution--just in case no more were filmed.

TV shows plan for multiple season runs but often things are left hanging when the series is abruptly canceled. Unless there is a guarantee of a new season, most showrunners now don't want the writers to do cliffhangers because it makes the show harder to resell later.


There's a difference between the two forms, and movies are more like novels than TV shows are. TV shows are designed so that they could potentially run forever (hasn't As the World Turns been on for over 40 years?!). The story goes on and on and on and on--it's more like an infinitely expanding short-story collection than like a novel. So you can have cliffhangers at the end of episodes or seasons; everyone knows the show will go on, and the mystery will be solved within a couple of months at most, sometimes less (if the cliffhanger is during the season at the end of one episode, it'll be resolved the next week).
TV shows are NOT designed to run forever, not even soaps. Daytime dramas were initially designed to reflect people's everyday dramas. Everyone's life goes on through all the chaos. Nearly every soap still on-air in the USA today started with a core set of characters and expanded. While some storylines have cliffhangers, they are within the framework of the rest of their universe continuing on...because they show has been renewed. When I read a short story collection, they are rarely set in the same universe, not written by collaborative writers and I can go back and enjoy them again and again in any order I care to read. This is completely impossible with soaps.

Quite a few soaps have departed over the last decade. Their writers wrapped up most of those storylines while leaving a few things open for the fans, and again, to give the sense "this world still goes on". There is a season to soaps, but rarely have cliffhangers between them been written. Once there was a set of companion soaps who shared the same universe. A big cross-over was planned. One soap was abruptly cancelled. It left the other one scrambling for their own storylines.


Movies and novels are designed to have a complete story contained within them.
This statement is incorrect. While many movies are written to be standalone, one-off products, quite often the writer(s) has more to the characters/universe and will happily write a sequel. Others are written as the first of unrealized multiples. Still others start out as standalones and are expanded for financial gains (see BTTF and Matrix examples above). Lastly, many movies are written to see just part of a story concerning just a couple of characters or a location or an item while not explaining everything. The story is deliberately incomplete to concentrate on the focus of whatever the writer deems worthy. There is no guaranteed conclusion.

As for novels, I don't know of a writer yet who has just one book about their characters, story or world. They may write a single book about one character, but it is often part of a larger scope present in their other work. The actual story may carry out well over the single novel.


TV series (other than miniseries, which are basically extra-long movies) and short story collections are not; the reader of short stories or the watcher of a TV series do not expect to have a complete, all-threads-wrapped-up story, whereas movie-goers and novel-readers do.
I have yet to see a movie (tv, theater or otherwise) which is complete story with all threads up. Something is always left open. When I read a short story, I don't expect a complete encapsulation of that world. I hope for a taste of something interesting. And then I hope the good ones wrote more.

"That's it, all of it, right there on the page or screen" is completely unrealistic. I have been disappointed by writers trying to make such hay. The attempts fall flat because they are unrealistic, there is nothing to relate to which makes it uninteresting to follow more.

I expect police procedurals (Law & Order, CSI, etc) to have at least one case being opened, investigated, and concluded during one episode. They generally also have one case or character or situation which carries over between other episodes (sometimes back-to-back, other times something is mentioned in season 2 and finally addressed in season 6). The heavy episodes also carry a third case which is never resolved. This is the formula: 1 main case wrapped up, 1 b case which may affect and/or interact with main case but makes sure everyone has something to do, and occasionally reference the c case which an ongoing puzzler that reveals personal information about the cast and is non-continuous.

If they didn't wrap everything up in one episode, it wouldn't be rewatchable because you would need all the other episodes to refer to in order to understand the story. Whereas I know Briscoe will arrest, McCoy will prosecute and Danny Tanner will have the girls in bed by 8. I rarely expect--or get--that same sense of completion with movies or novels.


A TV show can get away with a cliffhanger, just like a story in the middle of a collection can. But even with those, you can't put a cliffhanger in the last episode of the TV show or the last story in the collection; it has to come before then, so that the story can go on. And you can put cliffhangers at the end of chapters in a novel, or in scenes preceding the last scene in a movie, BUT NOT at the end. They only work where the story is going to continue relatively soon, as in a TV series or short-story collection or at the end of a chapter in the middle of a novel. But a year or two, which is how long it takes to get another book out (minimum), is not "soon." Not soon enough for cliffhangers at the end to work.
If I read a story in a collection which had a cliffhanger, and the rest of it wasn't in the same book, I would stop reading and not bother with that author again. Such a stunt shows extreme disregard for the reader. I would also seriously question reading anything handled by the editor who thought it appropriate. Novels I really like will have me waiting for a sequel (though I tend to wait for a complete set before starting a multiple book series) but for a short story with no guarantee of resolution unless I wait for another collection is just ridiculous.

TV shows are often critized for doing cliffhangers for multiple-part episodes after which everything goes back to status quo. There has to be a reason to care what happens after the story is done hanging. Gimmicks to sell incomplete maybes just turn me off.

"Yes, you will get the rest" is key for me. "Turn the page, wait for the fall, wait for next summer" are all do-able. "Maybe, if this goes right, but we have to figure it out first" is the mark of a child trying to use a trick instead of mastering the fundamentals first.

Books, novels, short stories, screenplays (movies), plays (stage), and teleplays (screen) are each their own beast with their own rules. However, they all fall under writing, which too has rules--that can be applied to every form. And subsequently applied to their separate genres.

Cliffhangers do work, but they have to be used right. People clamored for the above movies I cited, even after their allegedly disappointing middles. But writing them in tv shows or stories where the conclusion does not have a guaranteed airing or printing is dangerous and often backfires. Timing is crucial but so is follow-up.
 

seun

Horror Man
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
9,709
Reaction score
2,053
Age
46
Location
uk
Website
www.lukewalkerwriter.com
I'm a little hungover from my stag night so I'm feeling a little slow...but did someone really say the end of Butch & Sundance is ambiguous?
 

john barnes on toast

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 21, 2009
Messages
580
Reaction score
98
I have formulated the definitive theory on cliffhanger endings.

It will change your perceptions irrevocably and end the debate once and for all.

More to follow.
 

MsGneiss

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 26, 2008
Messages
1,595
Reaction score
262
Location
New York City
Another thing to note is that MOVIES do not end in cliffhangers.

No, not true. I present, "The Italian Job," which ends in a literal cliffhanger. This is in contrast to the list of movies that Alphabeter posted, since it was not intended as a part of a movie franchise, or a kick-off to a set of sequels. It was intended as a movie with a cliffhanger ending. There's the distinction, and it applies to novels too.

I see no problem with a novel that ends in a cliffhanger (ala "The Restraint of Beasts") where the cliffhanger is a literary device, or just a good way to exit out. It can be effective, and clever, and eerie, and fun. However, I do have a problem with books that end with a blunt suggestion that you must purchase another book. A "find out what happens in book 2" ending is a terrible disservice to the audience, and you should not do that (especially not with a first book).
 

MsGneiss

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 26, 2008
Messages
1,595
Reaction score
262
Location
New York City
Entertainment is almost as subjective as beauty. It's silly to make general statements about it, since so much depends on individual tastes. What's entertaining in the romance world does not apply in science fiction. We can, however, focus on basic literary techniques and best practices, and that may be a more productive tangent for the discussion.
 

M.R.J. Le Blanc

aka Sadistic Mistress Mi-chan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
2,195
Reaction score
271
Location
At the computer
Good question, and thanks for asking it.

My first instinct is that it would come down to how I began book two, and that it wouldn't have to be too confusing. If nothing else, the dialogue between them could be very revealing, and an argument between them could start the book. I think that the full richness of the characters would not come across to the reader if they hadn't read book one, but I think I could make them rich enough after a few chapters.

In general do you think you should want the reader to be able to pick up book two or three and read it as a stand-alone experience?

In a way, yes. Absolutely.

A few years ago I read a series called The Dragon Quartet. At the time I found it all they had was Book 2, but I bought it and read it anyway. While it continued the storyline from Book 1, I didn't need Book 1 to get what was going on in Book 2. There was enough reference from Book 1 that enabled me to get what was going on. I still bought Books 3 and 4 and enjoyed them (up until the end of Book 4, the author kind of floundered somehow but that's a whole 'nother nugget :) ) and plan on tracking down Book 1. Though I didn't need it, reading Book 2 made me want to go get Book 1 because I wanted to know the details. It got me curious.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.