Strong Female Characters

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Mr Flibble

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See? You got it. The test is really about finding out if your female characters are actually characters or just trophies.


Well, no that 's the point - the test doesn't take that into account at all, and that's what we should be doing, making sure our characters - all of them - are real characters. The test just points out a trend we should be aware of. It doesn't care about the characters and how they are presented except in one narrow way. We should.
 

Max Vaehling

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Well, no that 's the point - the test doesn't take that into account at all, and that's what we should be doing, making sure our characters - all of them - are real characters. The test just points out a trend we should be aware of. It doesn't care about the characters and how they are presented except in one narrow way. We should.

That's why I said what I said about passing the test well rather than just passing it. Well-rounded characters will do that for you, and the key to passing the test isn't to write that one scene where they talk about shoes, but better female characters.
 

Mr Flibble

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Well, exactly my point

But the test doesn't require it, which is why it's great at pointing out a trend that needs to be addressed, but that's about it - it goes no further than that. Which is the problem I have with it, or at least my problem with how it's often interpreted. It's like all those 'rules' that are actually guidelines. Or the BMI index (which the British Army stopped using on recruits because it was failing all the fittest of them because it fails to take into account that muscle weighs more than fat).

It's a great starting point, and something to think about. But it doesn't actually help making great characters and it's pretty bad at analysing individual works.

To get back on topic a bit: For me one aspect of a strong character is one who thinks independently - they gather info and make up their own mind, rather than being led, or pushed, about like a sheep.
 

crunchyblanket

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Dammit, how could I miss this thread? Practically made for a hairy-legged bra-burning gobshite like me :D

Since I'm at work, I'll keep it brief. The Bechdel test is just one of many tools I use in order to satisfy my own insistence upon writing three-dimensional female characters. And it is a useful tool, on one condition: that it's not the only tool you use.

The Bechdel test isn't suggesting that your FC's can't or shouldn't talk about men. That would be unrealistic, and realism should be what we're aiming for, for the most part. But it's equally unrealistic for FC's to only talk about the men in their lives - when I get together with my (one) female friend, we sometimes talk about our significant others. But more often, we talk about music, or tea, or the books we've read, or the pros and cons of veganism or whatever's on our minds at that time. We don't have one-track minds just because we're women, and there is a tendency - not just in books, but in other media as well - to show female characters only in the context of the male characters (i.e either in their presence, or talking about them when not in their presence.)

The best portrayals of women, imo, offer balance. Michonne in 'The Walking Dead' TV series has (so far) been a good example of this. She has spoken to men, and about men, but she's also focused on survival, and there are several scenes between her and Andrea in which they don't mention men at all. So far, so passing the Bechdel.

The point I'm trying to make, and waffling endlessly about instead, is that we oughtn't discount the Bechdel test as a useful marker - not of 'strength', which is a hugely subjective quality, but of agency. Are your female characters able to connect with one another without a man/men as their common ground? If so, that's a good sign. That doesn't mean they can't have a man as their common ground; it only means that there should be more to their interactions than 'hey, there's a scene between two women but let's talk about the men instead'.

But like I said. The Bechdel test is just one tool, and employing it exclusively as a means to empowering your female characters is going to end up making things wonky. There are other tools required here too, and we should seek to use them all.

(that wasn't brief at all. Damn.)
 

dkamin

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When I had an idea for a YA novel, I knew I had to make the female protagonist a strong one. Like a lot of people are saying, there are a lot of weak, weak female leads out there (twilight anyone?), and not only does it detract from the book, but gives a horrible role model for any young readers (it's totally cool to be stalked and let a guy watch you as you sleep, really it's totally ok, he's in love with you). Now, I think I meet the Bechdel test, but considering my female protagonist is more kick ass, kill things, I think I already stepped away from that weak lead.
 

BunnyMaz

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Thing is, the Bechdel test was originally designed more to highlight trends in media, rather than problems with any individual film. And to make a point about the way we portray women and men.

Let's face it, the bar is set pretty damn low. All it takes to pass is a scene as simple as having two female characters and a single 30 second scene. Even if they only say as much as "Hi, how're you?" "Oh, fine.", you've passed.

So the fact that you can apply the test to any given year in cinema and find that, say, of the 151 movies tested for it in 2012, over 60 failed it. Or that, of the 253 movies tested in 2011, over 40% failed it, is pretty indicative that there is a problem.

The idea is to be aware of the trend, and to then consider your own work and see whether you've failed the Bechdel test because it makes sense, or is necessary, for your story. Or whether it's because you're falling into the trap of treating your female characters as window dressing without realising it.

It's not a confirmation of whether a movie is fair to it's female characters, portrays women in a positive light or is feminist. It's a very simple test to demonstrate one aspect of problematic portrayal that can't be argued over (you could argue back and forth for hours over whether, say, the female MC from Prometheus is a strong, positive or feminist portrayal of a woman. And you'd probably find as many opinions on the issue as there are people arguing over it. But passing the Bechdel test is quantifiable.).
 

skunkmelon

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I work with victims of domestic violence and sexual assault and I've discovered that everyone has strengths, though they may not be aware of them or consider them strengths. We've been using the StrengthsFinder assessment (through Gallup) with every client and it's made a difference in the way clients look at themselves, who they are and who they want to be.

Because of that insight through my job, I think the female characters that feel strong to me are those whose strengths are awknowledged by the the author in some way--even when the character is physically weak or emotionally weak, there's something there that shines bright in the darkness.

The characters that don't work for me are the ones whose strength comes from the other characters around them. I've read books with mothers who live for their kids and they are strong, rich characters and other books with mothers who only live through their kids and have no substance themselves. Those are the characters that don't catch my interest or they fail to keep it.

I think the best way to make great characters with depth is to understand their strengths: even a bad guy has strengths and they make him or her unique. I guess that's what I'm looking for in a strong female protagonist even though I'm not consciously doing that...although I might start now that I've put it down into words! :)
 

RedWombat

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Heh. I actually had to write a scene into my webcomic so that it passed the Bechdel test from the other direction--I had no scenes where two male characters spoke together about something that wasn't a female character! So Digger the (female) wombat had to overhear two guards discussing a talking slug.

Who was arguably a hermaphrodite.

The main character, however, possessed minimal secondary sexual characteristics and her goal in life was to get home before all the good engineering jobs were taken, so frankly it sidestepped most of the real issues of being female in favor of the real issues of being a marsupial geologist.
 

LeslieB

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Let's face it, the bar is set pretty damn low. All it takes to pass is a scene as simple as having two female characters and a single 30 second scene. Even if they only say as much as "Hi, how're you?" "Oh, fine.", you've passed.

I just can't take it seriously. I've seen porn movies that passed, and it automatically fails every romantic comedy ever made.
 

Max Vaehling

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Here's an interesting perspective by Wonderfalls producer Bryan Fuller that kind of fits this topic. It's from an online interview that doesn't appear to be online anymore, and it gave me a lot to think about. It's not exactly about what makes a strong female protagonist, more about what doesn't make a strong male protagonist:

"One of the reasons the character of Jaye is a woman is because we have a broader storytelling canvas with women than we do with men. We’re allowed to go places emotionally with her that we couldn’t with a male character because people aren’t always comfortable seeing men in emotionally taxing positions."

Thoughts?
 

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It's certainly very thought-provoking, so thanks for sharing! I'm not familiar with Wonderfalls beyond the Wikipedia article that I just read, so that might color my perspective.

I read somewhere that, historically, men have been discouraged from showing any strong emotional responses other than anger and lust. Whereas women could show any emotion BUT anger or lust. While I do think women have a longer list of "acceptable" emotions to feel, I don't think it necessarily follows that women are therefore less restricted in how they are represented.

Reading the synopsis of each episode, I really don't see how making the MC a man would have somehow limited whatever themes the creators wanted to explore. To me, this nicely demonstrates how sexism is harmful to everyone, not just women.
 

Maze Runner

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Here's an interesting perspective by Wonderfalls producer Bryan Fuller that kind of fits this topic. It's from an online interview that doesn't appear to be online anymore, and it gave me a lot to think about. It's not exactly about what makes a strong female protagonist, more about what doesn't make a strong male protagonist:



Thoughts?

I don't know. I might have a different view of strength. To me a character (a person) who's willing to dip his toes into the emotional abyss is stronger for the knowing that he can find his way out.

ETA: What a terrible way to put it. If I'd have said "wade" instead of "dip his toes" it might have been closer to what I mean. But how 'bout this one? A tree that won't bend will snap. I think being willing to experience, display emotions, even if they'd be (mis)construed as weakness, vulnerability and not fear the consequences is more courageous and therefore a better indication of real strength.

(More coffee, definitely need more coffee)
 
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MakanJuu

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This thread is pretty relevant for me. I'm currently writing a trilogy of novels where an emotional, broken female character with issues is forced to become the hero, all the while, slowly but surely rescuing herself & becoming stronger by the end.

To add my two cents, though, my current favorite TV series, Nikita, has very strong and complex female characters- both pro and antagonists- who do kick ass, but are generally protrayed as somewhat equal to their male counterparts. IE, both the men & women save each other an equal amount of times. Even so, we get to see a lot of what these characters went through to be who they are today, usually involving crime, drug addiction, sex slavery & murder on many different levels.

It's quickly become my favorite show, though, based on the drama & the lack of fear the writers have for upsetting the status quo. Recently, the main character's fiance just lost his good arm in combat & is now dealing with the fact that he can't protect her anymore, which is driving him insane & seemingly making him consider giving her up.

Basically, just great writing all around.
 

Sirion

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I think one of the problems with writing strong female characters is that people tend to write them as males inside female bodies.

It's one of those things that really sticks out to me in fiction. Some writers are really good with avoiding it (Rowling?), but its definitely a balancing act.
 

Linda Adams

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I think one of the problems with writing strong female characters is that people tend to write them as males inside female bodies.

It's one of those things that really sticks out to me in fiction. Some writers are really good with avoiding it (Rowling?), but its definitely a balancing act.

So true. I've read a number of books like that, and it's one of the things that frustrates me as a reader when I'm looking for realistic women. One I read had decidedly male motivations for a female character, and I spent the whole book thinking, "But a woman wouldn't have reacted that way."
 

Kittens Starburst

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So true. I've read a number of books like that, and it's one of the things that frustrates me as a reader when I'm looking for realistic women. One I read had decidedly male motivations for a female character, and I spent the whole book thinking, "But a woman wouldn't have reacted that way."

Not being funny, but in what way? I've honestly never thought a female character has come across as somehow too 'manly' or a man too 'womanly' in anything I've read or watched.
 

Linda Adams

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Not being funny, but in what way? I've honestly never thought a female character has come across as somehow too 'manly' or a man too 'womanly' in anything I've read or watched.

Not a woman being more manly, but having motivations or reactions that don't feel right for a woman. I remember one that had a side story about a competition for a job -- two women characters actually -- and in the very first scene, my immediate reaction was that these were a couple of "guys in skirts," not actual women characters.
 

thebloodfiend

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Not being funny, but in what way? I've honestly never thought a female character has come across as somehow too 'manly' or a man too 'womanly' in anything I've read or watched.
Neither have I. I'm rather curious now. What is a male motivation outside of worrying about prostate cancer or blue balls?

People are pretty varied across populations and cultures, therefor, it follows that characters would be as well, right?

Or is this just going back to page six and "men with boobs?"
Not a woman being more manly, but having motivations or reactions that don't feel right for a woman. I remember one that had a side story about a competition for a job -- two women characters actually -- and in the very first scene, my immediate reaction was that these were a couple of "guys in skirts," not actual women characters.
But why?

What exactly did they do to trigger your reaction? Honest question.
 

Linda Adams

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What exactly did they do to trigger your reaction? Honest question.

It was how they were competing for the job. It was like it was a couple of football players trying to win a game. The reaction of the female antagonist near the end reminded me particularly a male soldier I knew who would have a meltdown for every point the other team earned while any women playing were giving him exasperated sighs: "It's a point. So what?"
 

kuwisdelu

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It was how they were competing for the job. It was like it was a couple of football players trying to win a game. The reaction of the female antagonist near the end reminded me particularly a male soldier I knew who would have a meltdown for every point the other team earned while any women playing were giving him exasperated sighs: "It's a point. So what?"

I'm not sure I get it. I know some girls who totally lose it over hockey.

But they're Canadian, so maybe they don't count...

:tongue
 

thebloodfiend

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It was how they were competing for the job. It was like it was a couple of football players trying to win a game. The reaction of the female antagonist near the end reminded me particularly a male soldier I knew who would have a meltdown for every point the other team earned while any women playing were giving him exasperated sighs: "It's a point. So what?"
I'm not sure I get it. I know some girls who totally lose it over hockey.

But they're Canadian, so maybe they don't count...

:tongue

I was just about to say I've seen women lose it over hockey, too.

It was so weird, a friend of mine from Colorado was with me in the lounge of my dorm and we were trying to work on our portfolios. Then out of nowhere, this girl watching hockey started yelling stuff like "You motherfucking bastard, the puck got stolen right out from your damn nose!"

I'm not one to get particularly excited about anything to actually yell at a television screen, but my friend looked pointedly at my surprised expression and said, "If you think that's bad, you should see me when I watch my team play."

So, I don't think it's a male reaction so much as just a sports fan reaction.
 

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I think one of the problems with writing strong female characters is that people tend to write them as males inside female bodies.

So true. I've read a number of books like that, and it's one of the things that frustrates me as a reader when I'm looking for realistic women. One I read had decidedly male motivations for a female character, and I spent the whole book thinking, "But a woman wouldn't have reacted that way."
Every few months someone pops on this board and asks a question that goes along these lines: "I'm a guy who's trying to write a female protagonist, but I'm afraid I can't get in her head. How do I write a realistic female character?" (I did a search in Basic Writing Questions and came across at least 4 this year). The most common answer tends to go something like this: "Don't try to write a realistic female character; try writing a realistic character, period", the message being men and women aren't all that different in what they want, how they react, etc.

Throughout this thread, female characters that are 'men with boobs' have been repeatedly lambasted. What am I asking? I'm not sure. I guess one question would be, if people are people, which is what most of the responses in those threads kind of aim at, then can there really be a female character who is just 'a man with boobs'? Or a male character who's just 'a chick with a dick'? Does the problem come when a writer tries too hard to break a stereotype, and ends up going too far?

Gah, I'm not sure I'm expressing myself quite right here, but it's the best I can do at the moment.
 

frimble3

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I'm sorry that my best example is also sports related, but I knew a girl on the basketball team, back in high school, haranguing the coach to let her play in that night's game. He was going to bench her because she had broken her nose in an earlier practice, and assumed that she wouldn't want to play, what with the splint on her nose and all. But she was all "Put me in coach, I'm ready to play, today!"
Some women will fight tooth and nail for what they want, and some won't. In the same way that some men will and some won't.
 

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Every few months someone pops on this board and asks a question that goes along these lines: "I'm a guy who's trying to write a female protagonist, but I'm afraid I can't get in her head. How do I write a realistic female character?" (I did a search in Basic Writing Questions and came across at least 4 this year). The most common answer tends to go something like this: "Don't try to write a realistic female character; try writing a realistic character, period", the message being men and women aren't all that different in what they want, how they react, etc.

Throughout this thread, female characters that are 'men with boobs' have been repeatedly lambasted. What am I asking? I'm not sure. I guess one question would be, if people are people, which is what most of the responses in those threads kind of aim at, then can there really be a female character who is just 'a man with boobs'? Or a male character who's just 'a chick with a dick'? Does the problem come when a writer tries too hard to break a stereotype, and ends up going too far?

Gah, I'm not sure I'm expressing myself quite right here, but it's the best I can do at the moment.

I always think that it shouldn't be just write a character, but character first, then think about how the gender affects that character. It has to play into it because there are some experiences that are uniquely gender oriented. I think where writers have trouble with the gender it's because they didn't take the extra step and think about things like how the gender affects whatever's going on in the story. As a real basic example, I don't have the upper body strength of a man; therefore, I sometimes make decisions on purchasing something by its weight (i.e., computer monitor) so I can get it home.
 
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