Strong Female Characters

Status
Not open for further replies.

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
Does a strong character have to be a self starter, a positive person, a go getter, a great role model? I really don't think so. A strong character to me is simply a character who seems real and/or is full of personality even if, technically, they are larger than life. By 'strong' are we making a moral judgement on someone's worth rather than simply identifying characters who are well-written?

No offence meant, but I genuinely don't understand why anyone would have to question how to write a strong woman. We're not an exotic alien species. We're just people. Just write human.
Rather than "strong" and "weak", I prefer to think in terms of "active" and "passive". I like characters (male and female) who are active, that is, they make things happen. Passive characters just react to things which happen to them.
 

Kittens Starburst

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
117
Reaction score
11
Location
Scotland
Rather than "strong" and "weak", I prefer to think in terms of "active" and "passive". I like characters (male and female) who are active, that is, they make things happen. Passive characters just react to things which happen to them.

Hmm. My male mc is a passive chump. A hilarious series of mishaps occur because he's so gullible and non-confrontational (they are hilarious, damn it!). But he discovers his inner superhero in the nick of time after spending the rest of the book running squealing for cover.

But I do know what you're saying. I don't mind passive characters where their passivity is clearly not an oversight on the writer's part. Other than that, a doormat character can be pretty dull.
 

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
11,140
Reaction score
3,082
Location
Walking the Underworld
Website
www.richardgarfinkle.com
There's a difference between passive and reactive. A passive character effectively does nothing (a doormat). A reactive character does not initiate events but may respond to events with bursts of extreme activity.

Arguably, the entire superhero genre has active villains against reactive heroes.
 

Maze Runner

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
5,489
Reaction score
609
I'm gonna go read on the examples because they sound interesting. I definitely agree that there are certain things that are overdone, rape being one of them. Yes, it happens and is absolutely horrible, but it shouldn't be used as a convenient, easy way to give a character a tragic back story.

You just reminded me of a book I read once with a woman who was supposed to be this great, independent, strong person. She was a professional, I want to say she had a radio show, was doing great in her career. She was supposed to be a genius. Throughout the book we were constantly told how independent and smart and everything she was, and I'm sure the author was trying to make her into a liberated woman sort of character.

Which fell totally flat when at the end of the book, she's caught by the bad guy who puts her in a plastic garbage bag and she almost suffocates and is only saved when the love interest shows up to defeat the bad guy and rescue her. Zomg. I was so annoyed. I kept thinking "why not try to tear a whole in the bag? It's plastic. It should tear. At least try to tear it." The whole scene was one of those cases where the author had told us throughout the book what the character was, but when it came to show, she turned out to be a typical damsel in distress.

Kaitie, I'm curious if this was written by a man or woman. The unexpected ending sounds mindful, like a point is being made. I could be wrong...

Would I be simplifying if I defined strength as having courage of your convictions, whatever your convictions, and for a male or a female?

Maybe, as a woman, your conviction is to lead a traditional life, be a mother, a wife, a homemaker, and be true to your innate values, which may include living to be a nurturer. Or maybe as a man, your conviction, your decided belief is to be passive and non violent, even in the face of a physical threat. Maybe the characters around you, even your nemesis, are so impressed and taken aback by your determination to turn the other cheek that they are disarmed and even somewhat converted, and in this way you save the day, while typical superheroes fall around you.
 

Kittens Starburst

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
117
Reaction score
11
Location
Scotland
There's a difference between passive and reactive. A passive character effectively does nothing (a doormat). A reactive character does not initiate events but may respond to events with bursts of extreme activity.

Arguably, the entire superhero genre has active villains against reactive heroes.

Very true, all.

And not just the superhero genre but a lot of action stuff and basically anything where the villain instigates events.
 

kaitie

With great power comes
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
10,995
Reaction score
2,526
Kaitie, I'm curious if this was written by a man or woman. The unexpected ending sounds mindful, like a point is being made. I could be wrong...

Would I be simplifying if I defined strength as having courage of your convictions, whatever your convictions, and for a male or a female?

Maybe, as a woman, your conviction is to lead a traditional life, be a mother, a wife, a homemaker, and be true to your innate values, which may include living to be a nurturer. Or maybe as a man, your conviction, your decided belief is to be passive and non violent, even in the face of a physical threat. Maybe the characters around you, even your nemesis, are so impressed and taken aback by your determination to turn the other cheek that they are disarmed and even somewhat converted, and in this way you save the day, while typical superheroes fall around you.

By a woman, actually, and a very famous mystery author at that. I never could stand her books because of the completely unrealistic, two-dimensional characters, but I guess she was pretty popular. ;)

Personally, I think the courage of your convictions means a lot to me in a character, male or female. Even if your convictions aren't the same as mine, I admire someone who stands up for his/her beliefs and acts accordingly. I think that goes a lot with the active/passive, control things that we've mentioned before, too.
 

Maze Runner

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
5,489
Reaction score
609
By a woman, actually, and a very famous mystery author at that. I never could stand her books because of the completely unrealistic, two-dimensional characters, but I guess she was pretty popular. ;)

Personally, I think the courage of your convictions means a lot to me in a character, male or female. Even if your convictions aren't the same as mine, I admire someone who stands up for his/her beliefs and acts accordingly. I think that goes a lot with the active/passive, control things that we've mentioned before, too.

Shouldn't you be in bed? Late where you are...

I just think that when we're dealing with cultural baggage (don't mean to minimize) whether it's gender/racial/religious inequities/oppression, there is a danger, a likelihood to over correct, in life and in what imitates life. We know why we do it. But in a way, we are still victims of that inequity as long as we are reacting to it. To me, this thread is about trying to find our center.
 

kaitie

With great power comes
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
10,995
Reaction score
2,526
Nah I'm in the states now, just keep forgetting to change my location. :tongue I do have to go to work in a couple of hours, though.

I like your comment about finding our center. I think that's a great way to put it.
 

Maze Runner

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
5,489
Reaction score
609
Nah I'm in the states now, just keep forgetting to change my location. :tongue I do have to go to work in a couple of hours, though.

I like your comment about finding our center. I think that's a great way to put it.

It might just be me, 'cause as I said in an earlier post, I was raised by hellified strong women. And I don't mean strong in the sense that they could beat up all the other moms, or never showed weakness or never cried or never gave in, etc. Strong in the ways of life. You know, the things that life demands of us every day. Loving, when you're feeling unloved, or standing true when you're feeling weak, for eg. I don't know- and I sure don't want to discount the concerns or experiences of others, to me this is strength. This kind of quiet, unassuming strength that actually, I see far more often in women than in men. The truth? I always thought women were stronger than men.
 

Rhoda Nightingale

Vampire Junkie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
4,470
Reaction score
658
I just think that when we're dealing with cultural baggage (don't mean to minimize) whether it's gender/racial/religious inequities/oppression, there is a danger, a likelihood to over correct, in life and in what imitates life. We know why we do it. But in a way, we are still victims of that inequity as long as we are reacting to it. To me, this thread is about trying to find our center.

This right here, especially the bold, to me encapsulates everything that's problematic about the "strong female character" stereotype, that initial tendency to "over correct." You don't like damsels in distress? All right then, have an expert-in-all-martial-arts who Don't Need No Man. Too much? Fine, then have a Faux-Action Girl who wears ~pink~ body armor and doesn't actually get into fights on-page.

I think the challenge in writing believable female characters--any shade of strong, weak, smart, dumb, but most importantly believable--is to find a balance of all those things that make up a realistic human being. Leaning too hard in any one direction is what pushes a character from Individual to Stereotype.

And while we're on the subject, I think that applies to all characters across the gender spectrum. "Strong male characters," when you define "strong" as "physical ability to throw punches and fire many bullets," suffer from cardboard-cut-out syndrome the same as females. The only reason they get away with it is, because maleness is a "default" character trait, they don't have that stamp of tokenism that their female counterparts have to deal with on top of everything else.
 

Maze Runner

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
5,489
Reaction score
609
This right here, especially the bold, to me encapsulates everything that's problematic about the "strong female character" stereotype, that initial tendency to "over correct." You don't like damsels in distress? All right then, have an expert-in-all-martial-arts who Don't Need No Man. Too much? Fine, then have a Faux-Action Girl who wears ~pink~ body armor and doesn't actually get into fights on-page.

I think the challenge in writing believable female characters--any shade of strong, weak, smart, dumb, but most importantly believable--is to find a balance of all those things that make up a realistic human being. Leaning too hard in any one direction is what pushes a character from Individual to Stereotype.

And while we're on the subject, I think that applies to all characters across the gender spectrum. "Strong male characters," when you define "strong" as "physical ability to throw punches and fire many bullets," suffer from cardboard-cut-out syndrome the same as females. The only reason they get away with it is, because maleness is a "default" character trait, they don't have that stamp of tokenism that their female counterparts have to deal with on top of everything else.

Yeah, I mean, whenever you have an agenda other than truth telling (as much as you can decipher truth) you are going to be off, in one direction or another. It might help to loosely base your characters on either people that you know or have known, or just have a casual acquaintance with, or see in the supermarket, or see through in the super market.

"What is strength" has become an even more interesting subject than it used to be. And I think it's because of all the distortions in fiction/movies that we have now got to dig out from under.
 

Dreity

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
1,031
Reaction score
180
Location
Upstate NY
This is a great read. The comments about finding our center as a culture particularly resonated with me.

I often wonder if I'll face accusations of gender stereotyping with my sibling MCs. The man is impulsive, prone to anger, and pretty ignorant of what's going on in his own heart and mind. He also really likes swords. The woman is calmer, more contemplative, extremely self-aware, and rather indifferent about swords. Like...I think if the book were about just one character or the other the risk wouldn't be quite there, but since it's as much about the two of them as siblings as it is about individuals, I worry that folks will read it and think, "Ah, well, he's the male half, so of course he's oblivious! *scoff* Dreity's a sexist jerk!"

I tried to "over-correct" the FMC in the first draft and it was a disaster. Making her less "wimminy" was not true to her character and it fell flat in every scene. Likewise, making the man more in-tune with himself made for a much less compelling character arc. Now that I'm a better writer, I think I've got some complex, realistic characters. But will people only react to the parts of their personality that conform to traditional gender roles?

Why no, I'm not insecure at all. What gave you that impression? :e2hammer:
 

Wilde_at_heart

υπείκωphobe
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
3,243
Reaction score
514
Location
Southern Ontario
There definitely shouldn't be. As a woman who's cold and detached in real life, I've always been greatly annoyed by the social expectations for women to be in touch with their feelings more so than men. Very irritating and not feminist in the least.

I've almost made a game out of undermining that particular stereotype in my books because it just annoys me that much.

One of my FMCs is somewhat "detached" as well; or at least seems that way to the other characters because she's quite introverted. She also gets angry when she's upset rather than either crying, talking it out or just "sucking it up". She's also trying to figure out her life and dreads both the idea of having kids and climbing the corporate ranks in a career.

I don't think strong character necessarily equals 'stoic' either. 'Strong' for me is when the author doesn't lean on tropes and stereotypes and presents characters who are multi-faceted.

The problem with stereotypes is that many people are drawn to whatever fits with their existing belief system rather than anything that challenges it and unfortunately many people still tout the Leave it to Beaver era as some kind of utopia. Even most 'propaganda' is about reinforcing existing attitudes rather than changing them.
 

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
4,288
Reaction score
561
Location
Pennsylvania
I don't think strong character necessarily equals 'stoic' either. 'Strong' for me is when the author doesn't lean on tropes and stereotypes and presents characters who are multi-faceted.
Oh, I definitely agree. One of the strongest characters I've ever written is extremely emotional and passionate. How in touch he is with his instincts and emotions is what gives him magic and a large part of his particular type of strength. I just think unemotional and detached women are badly under-represented in fiction.

That's what makes talking about strength so difficult, though. There are a thousand different kinds of strength. One of my side-projects is an erotic BDSM romance and that goes into the idea of how much strength it takes to submit and turn over control. I actually think the sub MC is one of my stronger characters.

Maybe strength can be simplified into "perseverance in the face of adversity". Whatever form the perseverance and adversity may take.

I will add that I *don't* think standing by their ideals necessarily makes a character strong. Clinging stubbornly to ideals can easily be a sign of fearing change and closed-mindedness. A strong character knows when to compromise and is willing to re-evaluate their beliefs in the face of new facts and circumstances.
 

Maze Runner

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
5,489
Reaction score
609
Oh, I definitely agree. One of the strongest characters I've ever written is extremely emotional and passionate. How in touch he is with his instincts and emotions is what gives him magic and a large part of his particular type of strength. I just think unemotional and detached women are badly under-represented in fiction.

That's what makes talking about strength so difficult, though. There are a thousand different kinds of strength. One of my side-projects is an erotic BDSM romance and that goes into the idea of how much strength it takes to submit and turn over control. I actually think the sub MC is one of my stronger characters.

Maybe strength can be simplified into "perseverance in the face of adversity". Whatever form the perseverance and adversity may take.

I will add that I *don't* think standing by their ideals necessarily makes a character strong. Clinging stubbornly to ideals can easily be a sign of fearing change and closed-mindedness. A strong character knows when to compromise and is willing to re-evaluate their beliefs in the face of new facts and circumstances.

GREAT point
 

MsPuck

...But you can call me Kristen.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 17, 2012
Messages
67
Reaction score
3
Location
Indiana
I feel that essentially, a "strong" female character is someone who sticks up for her best interest. I grew up with Lara Croft and Buffy, but while it's fun to cheer them on and watch them kick butt, it's difficult for viewers to project themselves. Don't get me wrong, they both definitely qualify as strong, but they shouldn't be the baseline. There are a million-and-five different ways to be strong, whether it's shooting a monster in the face or ending a 20-year marriage with an abusive man. So basically, the set of questions in the OP's post hit the feminist nail on the head.
 

frankiebrown

Simplify.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
945
Reaction score
204
Location
Georgia
Gonna leave this link here for anyone interested. It's a TedTalk by a teen girl about strong women as multifaceted characters instead of two-dimensional cut-outs.
 

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
4,422
Reaction score
639
Location
Metropolitan District of Washington
Website
www.linda-adams.com
I'm gonna go read on the examples because they sound interesting. I definitely agree that there are certain things that are overdone, rape being one of them. Yes, it happens and is absolutely horrible, but it shouldn't be used as a convenient, easy way to give a character a tragic back story.

You just reminded me of a book I read once with a woman who was supposed to be this great, independent, strong person. She was a professional, I want to say she had a radio show, was doing great in her career. She was supposed to be a genius. Throughout the book we were constantly told how independent and smart and everything she was, and I'm sure the author was trying to make her into a liberated woman sort of character.

Which fell totally flat when at the end of the book, she's caught by the bad guy who puts her in a plastic garbage bag and she almost suffocates and is only saved when the love interest shows up to defeat the bad guy and rescue her. Zomg. I was so annoyed. I kept thinking "why not try to tear a whole in the bag? It's plastic. It should tear. At least try to tear it." The whole scene was one of those cases where the author had told us throughout the book what the character was, but when it came to show, she turned out to be a typical damsel in distress.

I read a book similar to this. Woman was a professional bodyguard. A expert marksman in firing guns. Black belt in a martial art. She gets kidnapped by a stalker who is intrigued by such a skilled woman. I went through this entire book anticipating that we were going to have a great ending because she had been built up so much as being able to do all this stuff. Instead, she instantly forgets all her skills and waits for the male love interest to rescue her. I was ready to throw the book across the room.

That was written by a woman, too. Haven't touched one of her books since.
 

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
3,727
Reaction score
488
Location
Commonwealth of Virginia--it's for lovers
Website
www.elizabethhuhn.com
Oh, I definitely agree. One of the strongest characters I've ever written is extremely emotional and passionate. How in touch he is with his instincts and emotions is what gives him magic and a large part of his particular type of strength. I just think unemotional and detached women are badly under-represented in fiction.

That's what makes talking about strength so difficult, though. There are a thousand different kinds of strength. One of my side-projects is an erotic BDSM romance and that goes into the idea of how much strength it takes to submit and turn over control. I actually think the sub MC is one of my stronger characters.

Maybe strength can be simplified into "perseverance in the face of adversity". Whatever form the perseverance and adversity may take.

I will add that I *don't* think standing by their ideals necessarily makes a character strong. Clinging stubbornly to ideals can easily be a sign of fearing change and closed-mindedness. A strong character knows when to compromise and is willing to re-evaluate their beliefs in the face of new facts and circumstances.


This is a great thread in general, and I've been questioning the strength of my female MC in my latest WIP--but it's 10:30 and I have to be up early for a long day, so I'm just going to respond to the above.

The "clinging stubbornly to ideals" bit made me think of a male character in my latest WIP. I love him as a character, and I think it's because he learns exactly the lesson above. At first, he's willing to die for his ideals. He would let men attack and kill him and leave his daughter an orphan. He learns, however, that he can't give up so easily, and "politics be damned". I consider that strength.

A truly STRONG character, male or female, has room to grow and does it. Many "strong" characters are cardboard cutouts and are so "strong" that they can't grow.
 

Max Vaehling

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
1,133
Reaction score
75
Location
Bremen, Germany
Website
www.dreadfulgate.de
I swear this thread had only 3 pages when I started reading up on it...

Kinda surpirsed by the resistance the Bechdel test seems to spark for some people. There's a lot to be said for the test if you don't apply it religiously. It's by no means a measure for how good or feminist a story is (Sex and the City passes simply because they talk about shoes, too), but it provides a good rule of thumb for your own stuff, especially if you want to write for the other gender, too.

I've made a point of failing the Bechdel test in my superhero comics - not because I have an anti-feminist agenda but because I'm portraying a world where the superheroes are generally sexist and the superheroines actually buy into that. You know, like a lot of our world but with superheroes. On the other hand, my Conny Van Ehlsing, Monster Hunter series passes the test on page 1 (okay, technically, Conny isn't a woman yet but she counts since the comic is all about the kids' perspectives) and sticks to it, but for most of the time utterly fails to pass the reverse Bechdel test. I do have distinct boy characters, but they mostly talk about Conny when they're alone.

It's a matter of storytelling economics more than anything - every scene is about what drives the comic, in a way. If the lead - the one character that everybody is supposed to relate to - is female, your other characters are bound to talk about her at some point, aren't they?

Passing the test is easy. All you need is one extra scene. Passing it well is another thing. Good thing it's not about passing it or not, it's about learning something about your story. It makes you face some questions about your story: Are there female characters? Are there really, or are they just boob things? Are the relations between the characters - all characters - worth exploring, or is it all about the lead and his (?) quest? If you pass the test, are you passing it for the right reasons (because those characters count) or for the wrong ones (they talk about shoes, too)? If you don't, do you have a good reason? And what do the females in your story do when they're not talking about guys?

Those are all good questions, and answering them honestly will make you a better writer, no matter how many of your female characters talk about what.
 

Max Vaehling

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
1,133
Reaction score
75
Location
Bremen, Germany
Website
www.dreadfulgate.de
But shouldn't an author do this anyway? Even my minor characters come with back stories. I might not know their entire lives, but I know their appearance, their personalities, etc. Minor, named characters I know much more about. I could tell you all kinds of details about them, male and female.

I think it's good to ask yourself if your characters are developed or not, but it also seems like something that should be done in general. I do think, though, that it's a good idea to look at every character and see if they're just a cliche, but making all of the characters real is advice I'd give to anyone.

See? You got it. The test is really about finding out if your female characters are actually characters or just trophies.
 

Max Vaehling

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
1,133
Reaction score
75
Location
Bremen, Germany
Website
www.dreadfulgate.de
I feel that essentially, a "strong" female character is someone who sticks up for her best interest. I grew up with Lara Croft and Buffy, but while it's fun to cheer them on and watch them kick butt, it's difficult for viewers to project themselves. Don't get me wrong, they both definitely qualify as strong, but they shouldn't be the baseline. There are a million-and-five different ways to be strong, whether it's shooting a monster in the face or ending a 20-year marriage with an abusive man. So basically, the set of questions in the OP's post hit the feminist nail on the head.

Buffy isn't about the girl kicking butt. That's why it's so good. Right in the pilot, Whedon doesn't just introduce Buffy, but Willow, too, who has a totally different way of being strong (as do Buffy's mother and Cordelia). True, she does end up as bait pretty early on, but she takes the new threat into her stride by essentially delivering the founding speech to the Scooby gang ("You're the slayer, and we're, like, the slayerettes!")

To me, that's the makings of a real strong female character. Buffy has superpowers, she can be expected to face up to the vampires. Willow just does.

Also, the guys play an important role in this by accepting Buffy's lead - and not being the least bit weaker for it.

And that's just the pilot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.