Middle grade word count - are they going up?

CheG

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For the most part, no. Only a tiny minority of kids are fluent enough at reading and dedicated enough to tackle a book that long.

Example: in my son's 6th-grade class, he and one other boy have already read 1 million words. The other 28 kids are mostly under a quarter-million. There's a HUGE difference between the 2 uber-geeks and everybody else.

Then who on earth bought all those copies of Magyck and its sequels????
 

Morrell

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Then who on earth bought all those copies of Magyck and its sequels????

Uh ... people like us, I guess. My daughter (who is no uber-geek, but does like to read) LOVED them at age 13 or 14. I think both of my sons (who actually are u-g's) read them too, even though they're older. I read Magyk, but couldn't really get into the rest. In my family most everyone is up for a good & lengthy fantasy no matter where it's shelved. : )
 

MsJudy

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The kids who love to read REALLY, REALLY love to read. And they buy a lot of books.

It all adds up.
 

jtrylch13

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Oh, so many things to answer to.

My book is currently 130,000, but my goal is to cut it down to 100,00. I'm not even sure how far I can get with it anyway, because I think it has all been done before. After my Beta readers get done, I'm going through another set of edits and then submission to agents, but also moving on to another project. It's time!

I don't want to disagree with others, but from my experience kids do read long books and not just uber-geeks. Both of my kids are far, far from uber-geeks (11 - boy & 15 - girl). 6th grade son is still working on some of the later HP's, but daughter had them done by 6th grade, at least the ones that were out and then read the others in the first week of coming out. They have read a lot of other big books as well. I know other kids in their classes have read them, but I can't really give info on how many others. I do agree that shorter (at least below 90k) is better for getting published, being read and reaching wider audience.
 

Cyia

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For MG, 100K is putting you FAR outside the norm. Your book would have to rock like diamonds to get away with that.

70's pushing it.
 

CheG

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For MG, 100K is putting you FAR outside the norm. Your book would have to rock like diamonds to get away with that.

70's pushing it.

Agreed. Kids who love to read love to read a lot but not all in one book.

Even cutting a book down to 100,000 is pushing it. That's the lenght of epic fantasy.

See if you can cut it in half for a two book kind of thing and tell people it is two books in length.

Now I do remember as a kid reading adult novels and being all proud of myself I could read that much. But I will say I was reading above my comprehension a lot of the time. So there are going to be kids who will read that length but publishers want to sell to the biggest audience they can.
 

jtrylch13

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Yeah, I know, but it is what it is. It won't work as two books and I can't cut everything or there will be nothing left. If it doesn't get published, then I start with another project. So many writers don't get their first MS published, I won't let it discourage me. At the very least this has been a very long, in depth, stressful training experience for me! I'll just get better!
 

hammerklavier

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Anyone care to guess the minimum word count for MG and YA for current publications? At what point would agents/publishers reject a work soley on low word count?
 

MsJudy

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Anyone care to guess the minimum word count for MG and YA for current publications? At what point would agents/publishers reject a work soley on low word count?

You don't need to guess. The word count for kids' books is readily available.

Most agents will say, Write a good story and don't worry about it so much. But the reality is, MG under 25K and YA under 40K is going to be a hard sell, not because of hard-and-fast rules but because it's hard to tell a really satisfying story in such a short space. It can be done, of course. Sarah, Plain and Tall is about 8K.
 

MJWare

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I say, keep the upper and lower limits in mind, but then just write your book the way you want (or the way it comes out--depending on what type of writer you are). If can figure the rest out later (cut it in two, add a subplot, whatever).
 

lisalulu09

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So is 25K - 35K okay for a MG with a ten year old MC who has to save his school from vampires?
 

MsJudy

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Then who on earth bought all those copies of Magyck and its sequels????

Well, me, for one. I really enjoy them and don't get why you're quite so...perturbed.

It takes all kinds, you know!
 

MsJudy

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So is 25K - 35K okay for a MG with a ten year old MC who has to save his school from vampires?

I'd aim for 35K over 25K. 45K would probably be even better, if it's an intense adventure type of story. If it's extremely light-hearted and silly, then 25-30K is fine.

I say this a lot. There's another divide besides just chapter book/MG.

Younger, earlier readers--3rd and 4th grade or so--are gobbling up the funny books. Junie B. Jones, Wimpy Kid, Origami Yoda, etc. Then as kids become better readers, able to sustain their focus and tackle a longer, more complicated plot, they start moving towards more adventure. They're old enough to have the pants scared off them without really getting scared. So for those kids, you can match a whole lot of action, drama, adrenaline, etc. with a much longer book.

So it isn't really the subject matter. Vampires could be silly or terrifying. If yours are silly, they are good for younger readers who read shorter books. But if they're genuinely scary, then your target is the older reader. And they prefer longer, more complex and satisfying books.
 

Alanna B.

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I have read many different word counts for middle grade and young adult. They are all over the place.

Today I got an email from amazon with middle grade books. They were award winners and debut novels. At renlearn I found the word counts:

74k
51k
81k

Anecdotal I know but do you think that middle grade novel word counts is going up? I believe the first Harry Potter was MG and 77k. so I am confused.

Okay, the truth is that I'm afraid my MG WIP is too short. I think it will come in between 40 - 50k. and am worried it's not enough. I am obsessed with word count. Help me. Thank you.
I agree with mware. It seems that we sometimes get too caught up in the word count and forget that the most important things are an intriguing character and plot. Word count can certainly be changed after the fact. I think if you're going to consider word count, the too low would be the most important. If you've got a story that an agent or editor cannot put down, won't they decide later if it should be split into two stories or kept as one? I can't imagine that they would turn down an ms without reading it just because the word count was too high, but then again, I've see weirder things!
If your story feels complete at 40-50k, then go with it. :)
 
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CheG

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Well, me, for one. I really enjoy them and don't get why you're quite so...perturbed.

It takes all kinds, you know!

The lack of creativity in the book bothered me a lot. With winning names like The City and The River The ExtraOrdinary wizard. And everyon'e name started with 's' even characters not related to the main family.

BUT I did download it free on my Kindle recently so I may try and read some more of it see if it get's any better.

But remember- I also LIKE Red Pyramid...
 

abctriplets

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Ok, here's a question that I don't think I've asked....

Is MG horror a shorter genre? Or just the ones on my bookshelf?

It seems to me that they are, and I wondered if perhaps it was because MG horror works best in small doses, and too much intensity might push it into the YA genre?
 

jtrylch13

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The lack of creativity in the book bothered me a lot. With winning names like The City and The River The ExtraOrdinary wizard. And everyon'e name started with 's' even characters not related to the main family.

BUT I did download it free on my Kindle recently so I may try and read some more of it see if it get's any better.

But remember- I also LIKE Red Pyramid...

I liked the Magyck books, but I agree with you to some extent. I'll probably get in trouble with someone for saying this, but I didn't know anything about Angie Sage when I first read them and though they were a fun read, I felt they lacked some quality in the writing. It just seemed a bit trivial and maybe juvenille. I don't think just because it's a kids novel it has to be under written for them.

I liked the Red Pyramid as well, but I found after reading all the Percy Jackson books and The Lost Hero, I was a little tired of the demi-god kids that need to defeat the evil gods theme.

What was this thread about anyway? Oh, yeah, word count. I think we should write the book that's inside of us, keeping word count guidelines in mind, but only as a guide. But I'm an unpublished author with out an agent and only one finished manuscript, so I'm not much of an expert.

Also, I've heard others mention that they don't believe word count matters much to an agent, or at least they won't trun it down because of it, but I have read something very different. I've read quite a few books and on-line information about writing query letters, querying an agent, what agents want, etc. I know you can't believe everything you read, but much of my research indicates that some agents will reject a book solely on word count. Even if the story is intriguing, they may not want the work of beefing up or cutting down an MS. Not to mention, actually getting a book that's too long published is daunting due to cost of printing. On another thread I discussed with a prospective writer how he/she wasn't aware that agents would like to see word count on a query or a MS title page, but once again, my research indictaes you should include this info.

So what's the verdict? Who knows? It seems to me that getting a book published is like winning the lottery. You have to have all the right numbers. In our case, it's the right story idea, writing skills, prospective audience, timing, and catching the attention of the right agent/publisher. Good luck to all of us! At least we can actively increase our chances with our creativity and skill!
 

CheG

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I think it's wise to target a general range. Between X and X. That gives the agent and editors something to work with. But say someone sends in their 200K+ magnum opus. Unless every word is GOLDEN and the author is willing to split the book into a trilogy no one is going to touch it.

I know everyone says write to the idea, but at the end of the day if you want it published by the big 6 you'll play their game. The option is self-publish. Put it up as an e-book and see what happens.

I have a magnum opus that at 100K+ is still only 1/3 complete and I KNOW my options are: cut the hell out of it and submit it to agents at a reasonalble length or stick it up on Amazon for Kindle (well I'm leaning toward #3 which is serialize on line then put it up on Kindle).
 

MsJudy

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Ok, here's a question that I don't think I've asked....

Is MG horror a shorter genre? Or just the ones on my bookshelf?

It seems to me that they are, and I wondered if perhaps it was because MG horror works best in small doses, and too much intensity might push it into the YA genre?

I think that's a good explanation. Also, I think a lot of the kids who like horror are the kinds of kids who don't normally enjoy reading. They want short, scary, exciting books without a lot of..you know. Literary stuff. Too long, and you might as well be writing fantasy for the geeky kids!!
 

CheG

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I think horror in general can get away with being shorter because it needs to sustain a mood and go full throttle. Adult horror can go for the slow burn but even then if something doesn't happen soon it will get put down. But in adult horror you can also add pages of gore and no one minds.

Kid horror, to my mind, has to get straight to the point.
 

K.L Hallam

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As the mother of two reluctant readers, I think they would have read more if the books set before them had a little less daunting word counts. Most of the boys that hang around our house weren't big readers, either.

Fast fiction, is what these boys need. Something to temp them, little by little. Big stories compressed. This would be great. Then tack on the series (still lower w/ lower word counts) -- them we've got them. Baby steps. :)
 

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For the most part, no. Only a tiny minority of kids are fluent enough at reading and dedicated enough to tackle a book that long.

Example: in my son's 6th-grade class, he and one other boy have already read 1 million words. The other 28 kids are mostly under a quarter-million. There's a HUGE difference between the 2 uber-geeks and everybody else.

I totally would have been one of them...

But yes, I would think the story would need to be amazing to hold someone that young's attention. And even so, that's pushing it.
 

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Not to steal anyone's thread, but out of curiosity...

I have a WIP that has a 10yr old protagonist. Using renlearn I've looked up the series I used to love as a kid, especially those most like what I'm writing. They ranged from 10k to 30k. Should I be shooting for 30k? And what age range would my readers likely be? I suppose that worries me the most. I don't want to dumb down my story, but also don't want it to be above their heads.

For further reference points:

My story deals with horses. The original Saddle Club series had older characters (about 12-13) and averaged around 30k. A more modern series, Canterwood Crest, also has characters older than mine with an average word count of 45k.
 

CheddarBug

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As the mother of two reluctant readers, I think they would have read more if the books set before them had a little less daunting word counts. Most of the boys that hang around our house weren't big readers, either.

Fast fiction, is what these boys need. Something to temp them, little by little. Big stories compressed. This would be great. Then tack on the series (still lower w/ lower word counts) -- them we've got them. Baby steps. :)

I do have an idea in mind for young boy readers, but again, it's the word count that troubles me. As well as the age range of readers.