How close to perfect?

spikeman4444 · Nov 24, 2014

So I'm currently editing my WIP, and I'm trying to go from very broad to very specific corrections, starting with plot and advancing to characters, dialogue, voice, sentence structure, grammar and finally format. This is a question of format.

I know the proper format for manuscripts, but what I don't know is this:

If, say, you've created an otherwise solid, dare I say good manuscript with a strong voice, good hook, opening, and all that other good stuff, how important is the organization/arrangement of sentences? What I mean is, for instance when I pick up a book and read, I notice that there are times when dialogue follows character description in the same paragraph.

IE: Sam sat down. "I'm sitting now," said Sam.

But then I believe I've also seen it this way.

IE: Sam sat down.

"I'm sitting now," said Sam.

Is this a personal preference thing, or will an editor toss you aside if you screw these things up? Do we have to know all of the rules when it comes to formatting, or is there some rope allowed and that's the reason there are editors?

*Note, I'm not talking spelling errors, or font size or grammar. Strictly the (oh this should be the start of a new paragraph here type stuff). Or does everyone sort of know this stuff by heart and I'm just weird.

Bufty · Nov 24, 2014

Arrangement of sentences?

If I'm right in thinking what you are driving at, if actions accompany a character's dialogue they usually go in the same paragraph as the dialogue unless there's a particular reason why you wish to do otherwise, in which case it will either be effective or it won't.

Same speaker - same paragraph. New speaker- new paragraph, are as good guides as any.

If one character is speaking and his dialogue is closed by dialogue quotes and then the immediately following paragraph is more dialogue (within opening quotes) it is usually assumed that this new paragraph is another character speaking.

And as far as believing what you've seen goes, either you've seen it or you haven't, and if you have it would seem to suggest you have a choice - no? As the writer, you always have a choice and either the execution will be effective or it won't.

Read books of the sort you wish to write.

Maryn · Nov 24, 2014

So you're asking whether it's important to separate a characters words from his actions (or thoughts, memories, hopes, etc.)?

My rule of thumb--which is not an official rule--is that it's okay to combine a character's words and anything else originating from that same character: actions, background, hopes, what he sees or smells (but not what he smells like, unless he smells himself--yuck!), his thoughts, fears, sexual urges, hunger, anything that's entirely his.

The actions, reactions, thoughts, etc. of anyone else signal a break for another paragraph.

So if it were me, I'd write it as:

Sam sat down. "Look at me, sitting in a chair." [Note that I don't need any he said because this is entirely his paragraph. Following this rule cuts words.] He wriggled deeper into the blue velvet upholstery. Nana had a chair like this, only dark green, but it smelled of Grandpa's pipe and Sam didn't like it. Nana and Grandpa were dead now. What had happened to that chair? He hoped Maude didn't get it.

"Woolgathering again, I see," said Maude. She scratched her armpit.

Sam turned away. Maude was pretty disgusting. "Guilty."

Maryn, who replaced her own name with Maude once the scratching started

rwm4768 · Nov 24, 2014

Sam sat down. "I'm sitting now."

spikeman4444 · Nov 24, 2014

ok, so then since there seems to be a consensus on the rule, we go back to my underlying question. Is it a deal breaker if you miss these things sometimes?

Jamesaritchie · Nov 24, 2014

spikeman4444 said:
ok, so then since there seems to be a consensus on the rule, we go back to my underlying question. Is it a deal breaker if you miss these things sometimes?

Not if you miss them every now and then, but if you don't understand how to paragraph, it isn't likely to be every now and then, it;s going to be often. When this is the case, yes, it matters greatly.

Pick a novel by a good, bestselling writer in your genre. Do as he or she does, for the same reasons, and at the same places.

I've been reading more than a hundred books per year, sometimes a lot more, for about fifty-five years, and I've never seen:

Sam sat down.

"I'm sitting now," said Sam.

If Sam's dialogue starts a new paragraph, the previous paragraph was on a different subject and more complicated than what you wrote here, or the POV character was such that Sam played no part, or because the setup was perfect for dramatic effect. Sometimes Sam's dialogue should start a new paragraph, and sometimes it shouldn't.

It really isn't about dialogue, it's about proper paragraphing, whether in narrative, dialogue, or both.

You have to know who the POV characters is, what the subject of the previous paragraph is, and whether the previous paragraph completed it's mission. You also have to know the intent of starting a new paragraph. There's no way of knowing how you see it, or how often you get it wrong, because you didn't give a real example of what you do, or a real example you've seen in a book.

LJD · Nov 24, 2014

spikeman4444 said:
But then I believe I've also seen it this way.

IE: Sam sat down.

"I'm sitting now," said Sam.

So have I. In the book I'm reading now, and in another book I read in the past few weeks, for example*. But I seem to see it less often.

*And it's done this way pretty much every single time.

Jack McManus · Nov 24, 2014

spikeman4444 said:
Sam sat down.

"I'm sitting now," said Sam.

I just finished Die Trying, the second in the Jack Reacher series by Lee Child, which uses this arrangement, except instead of said Sam, the tag would be he said.

In my wip I'm using the modified version of the other arrangement, i.e., Sam sat down. "I'm sitting now."

It just looks better to me.

Apsu · Nov 25, 2014

spikeman4444 said:
IE: Sam sat down. "I'm sitting now," said Sam.

But then I believe I've also seen it this way.

IE: Sam sat down.

"I'm sitting now," said Sam.

As an amateur writer, it maters to me.

Once! · Nov 25, 2014

As far as I can tell, both formulations are possible. Neither seems any more right or wrong than the other. I don't imagine that you would be rejected solely on the basis of choosing one or the other.

But, as a reader I think I would take a slightly different meaning from the two phrases. Paragraphs generally contain related information. It is nearly always about the same character and often about the same period in time.

When an author breaks a paragraph, the reader usually assumes that he is about to say something that moves the story on. Something that doesn't fit into the first paragraph.

So when I see this:

Sam sat down. "I'm sitting now," said Sam.

I assume that the act of sitting down and Sam saying he was sitting down happen at more or less the same time. By including it in the same paragraph, the author has joined the two things together.

Compare with this:

Sam sat down.

"I'm sitting now," said Sam.

The sense I get is of a pause between Sam sitting down and him saying that he is sitting. It is almost as if I notice that the author has chosen to break the paragraph so I am subconsciously assuming that there must be a reason.

Writing it as two separate paragraphs also draws attention to the act of sitting down. It has its own paragraph - it must be important.

The difference between the two is not huge. In part it comes down to personal preferences and also what you are trying to achieve with the scene.

Bufty · Nov 25, 2014

In other words, yet again, context and intent are the guiding factors.

BethS · Nov 25, 2014

To the OP--

Best would be:

Sam sat down. "I'm sitting now."

You don't need to say "Sam said," because it's already clear he said it.

In general, keep a character's dialogue and actions in the same paragraph.

To answer your broader question -- if your novel is a great story well told, little formatting glitches won't matter.

HannahWing · Nov 25, 2014

I drive myself crazy with this one too. I think it's usually okay to combine the actions and dialogue, but I think whichever way you choose to do, doing that same thing consistently is important instead of mixing it up in the same story.

EMaree · Nov 25, 2014

I'd say follow your own instinct. Neither version of actions is wrong,really--Once! and Bufty were spot on when they said they covey different moods. Whatever one feels 'right' to you will match the natural cadence and rhythm of your writing.

Everyone here is speaking to their own personal preference, but without knowing the surrounding narrative it's impossible for us to know what fits your cadence.

ishtar'sgate · Nov 25, 2014

spikeman4444 said:
So I'm currently editing my WIP, and I'm trying to go from very broad to very specific corrections, starting with plot and advancing to characters, dialogue, voice, sentence structure, grammar and finally format. This is a question of format.

I know the proper format for manuscripts, but what I don't know is this:

If, say, you've created an otherwise solid, dare I say good manuscript with a strong voice, good hook, opening, and all that other good stuff, how important is the organization/arrangement of sentences? What I mean is, for instance when I pick up a book and read, I notice that there are times when dialogue follows character description in the same paragraph.

IE: Sam sat down. "I'm sitting now," said Sam.

But then I believe I've also seen it this way.

IE: Sam sat down.

"I'm sitting now," said Sam.

Is this a personal preference thing, or will an editor toss you aside if you screw these things up? Do we have to know all of the rules when it comes to formatting, or is there some rope allowed and that's the reason there are editors?

*Note, I'm not talking spelling errors, or font size or grammar. Strictly the (oh this should be the start of a new paragraph here type stuff). Or does everyone sort of know this stuff by heart and I'm just weird.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. That's what editors are for and it really all depends upon what you're trying to accomplish with the action and dialogue. In the example you've given it might be preferable to separate the action from the dialogue - for emphasis. Say the act of him sitting is in reluctant response to an order. Showing the action, then a beat later his verbal response, gives the reader the sense that he's feeling rebellious and his compliance is not completely voluntary. Does that make sense?

spikeman4444 · Nov 25, 2014

ha ha. I can't help but laugh at the polarization of this topic. Some responses speak to "yes, there is one right way to do this according to situation, and you need to know the rules." Others are "It really just boils down to what you are going for." Others still "Don't sweat it." I think I can safely say that nobody knows for sure and I don't feel bad that I'm not alone on this. I don't get the sense that there is a hard and fast rule. But I do get a sense that the arrangement will affect the way it is received by the reader, so I'll keep that in mind.

thanks!

Jamesaritchie · Nov 25, 2014

LJD said:
So have I. In the book I'm reading now, and in another book I read in the past few weeks, for example*. But I seem to see it less often.

*And it's done this way pretty much every single time.

So show an example. I pretty much guarantee it is not that simple. There's more before the break than what the OP posted.

Jamesaritchie · Nov 25, 2014

ishtar'sgate said:
I wouldn't worry too much about it. That's what editors are for and it really all depends upon what you're trying to accomplish with the action and dialogue.

Perhaps teh number one statement that gets new writers in trouble is "That's what editors are for." Or, "That's the editor's job."

An editor does help clean things up. Minor things. He helps make a manuscript better.

But an editor's real job is to find good writers who turn in manuscripts that need as little work as possible. Yes, an editor will help, but writing is the writer's job, not the editor's, and it's far better to think all writing and all editing are your responsibility. You should never let anything pass with the excuse, That's what editors are for because editors also have one other job, and that job is rejecting manuscripts that need too much work.

ishtar'sgate · Nov 25, 2014

Jamesaritchie said:
Perhaps teh number one statement that gets new writers in trouble is "That's what editors are for." Or, "That's the editor's job."

An editor does help clean things up. Minor things. He helps make a manuscript better.

But an editor's real job is to find good writers who turn in manuscripts that need as little work as possible. Yes, an editor will help, but writing is the writer's job, not the editor's, and it's far better to think all writing and all editing are your responsibility. You should never let anything pass with the excuse, That's what editors are for because editors also have one other job, and that job is rejecting manuscripts that need too much work.

Absolutely true but I was only referring to this particular question. It is not an excuse, it is an example of the kind of thing that is not critical and can be discussed with your editor when the time comes. I can't imagine anyone throwing down a manuscript in disgust with.... 'should have been in the same paragraph, it's not for us'. Just saying.

LJD · Nov 25, 2014

Jamesaritchie said:
So show an example. I pretty much guarantee it is not that simple. There's more before the break than what the OP posted.

from The Saint by Tiffany Reisz (2014, Harlequin)

A few examples from Chapter 4:

"I'm not going."

"What?"

Elle lifted the pillow up.

"I'm not going to Mass this morning." She enunciated every word. "I'm a Buddhist."

"Eleanor, get out of bed this instant and get ready for Mass."

"I'm an atheist. I'll incinerate the second I walk into church. It's for everyone's good that I stay away from that place."

Her mother growled under her breath.

"I don't even know what that is, but I'm not having this argument with you."

If it was me, I would have combined "Elle lifted the pillow" and the paragraph that follows, because it's spoken by the same character. (not sure if this is clear from the part I quoted, but I don't feel like typing out the whole thing.) Also, I find it odd that "Her mother growled under her breath" is not combined with the next paragraph, since it's the mother who speaks the last line. In neither case do I think there is supposed to be a pause between the action and the dialogue, so I don't see why they should be in separate paragraphs.

Another example:

"A motorcycle?"

"Yes." Her mother smiled. "A motorcycle."

"What kind? Not some no-thrust piece-of-crap crotch rocket from Japan, is it?"

Her mother shook her head.

"Something Italian."

"A Vespa? Those are scooters, not motorcycles." Elle giggled at the image of a priest in a collar on the back of a little Vespa scooter.

"No. Something that started with a D. Du-something."

Elle's eyes widened.

"A Ducati?"

"That was it."

The shaking head and eyes widening actions are given their own paragraphs, even though the next line of dialogue is spoken by the same character in both cases.

In this book, it appears that whenever the action precedes the character's dialogue, they are in separate paragraphs, no matter the context, and it stood out to me while reading this book.

I am reading a Georgette Heyer book right now and note the same thing; however, that book is nearly 100 years old.

I am interested in hearing if anyone sees these examples differently, but from what I recollect, the author does this throughout the entire book for pretty much all minor actions. Sighing, nodding, etc. Whenever the action comes before the character's dialogue, they are in separate paragraphs. Initially, I found it confusing at times to figure out who was speaking, because there aren't many dialogue tags either, and in the absence of them, I was expecting the paragraphs to alternate characters, but that's not what happens.

Anyway. Go ahead and tell me that I'm looking at this the wrong way and have no idea what I'm talking about.

spikeman4444 · Nov 25, 2014

LJD said:
from The Saint by Tiffany Reisz (2014, Harlequin)

A few examples from Chapter 4:

If it was me, I would have combined "Elle lifted the pillow" and the paragraph that follows, because it's spoken by the same character. (not sure if this is clear from the part I quoted, but I don't feel like typing out the whole thing.) Also, I find it odd that "Her mother growled under her breath" is not combined with the next paragraph, since it's the mother who speaks the last line. In neither case do I think there is supposed to be a pause between the action and the dialogue, so I don't see why they should be in separate paragraphs.

Another example:

The shaking head and eyes widening actions are given their own paragraphs, even though the next line of dialogue is spoken by the same character in both cases.

In this book, it appears that whenever the action precedes the character's dialogue, they are in separate paragraphs, no matter the context, and it stood out to me while reading this book.

I am reading a Georgette Heyer book right now and note the same thing; however, that book is nearly 100 years old.

I am interested in hearing if anyone sees these examples differently, but from what I recollect, the author does this throughout the entire book for pretty much all minor actions. Sighing, nodding, etc. Whenever the action comes before the character's dialogue, they are in separate paragraphs. Initially, I found it confusing at times to figure out who was speaking, because there aren't many dialogue tags either, and in the absence of them, I was expecting the paragraphs to alternate characters, but that's not what happens.

Anyway. Go ahead and tell me that I'm looking at this the wrong way and have no idea what I'm talking about.

see I'm not crazy! thanks!

rwm4768 · Nov 25, 2014

I don't like it when authors separate the character actions and dialogue like that. It makes me think someone else is speaking. Either put the dialogue with the action or tag it when it's separate.

G.G. Rebimik · Nov 25, 2014

Can't one just write:

Sam sat down and shouts, "I'm sitting down!"

?

BethS · Nov 25, 2014

LJD said:
from The Saint by Tiffany Reisz (2014, Harlequin)

I found the second excerpt in particular to be confusing. I couldn't tell who was speaking. IMO, that's a prime example of how not to format dialogue.

TIG&& · Nov 26, 2014

LJD said:
from The Saint by Tiffany Reisz (2014, Harlequin)

A few examples from Chapter 4:

I have to agree with comments about these being confusing. I think this highlights why combining speech and actions is generally more widely accepted. In truth, a pedantic view of grammar will be less negative than a publisher's reader who loses the track, and subsequently loses interest!

How close to perfect?

The snozberrys taste lke snozberrys

Where have the last ten years gone?

Baaa!

practical experience, FTW

The snozberrys taste lke snozberrys

smoothopr8r

Orange

Still confused by shoelaces

Where have the last ten years gone?

Wait, what?

a demon for tea

living in the past

The snozberrys taste lke snozberrys

living in the past

The snozberrys taste lke snozberrys

practical experience, FTW

Write? I can barely read...