No More "Thought Verbs."

There are a lot of naysayers here who are completely abandoning any and all merit this post actually has.

At the very least, the potential as an exercise is definitely there. This can make for much more interesting and engaging verbiage than the standard "thought verbs."

I've always taken a stance of "don't knock it 'til you've tried it." I'll definitely be trying this.

I love (oops) reading published authors' thoughts on writing. Every little bit of it expands how I view writing - my own and that which I read. I may not use every little morsel of advice, especially since much of it conflicts, but I always have it in the back of my mind when I'm reading and writing. And I really need to bring it closer to the front while I edit.

Thanks for the post, but do you have a link to the original? Surely it wasn't written by that kid on Tumblr

The idea behind this is good, but those examples are not. They sound like a good way to write a story that comes in well over suggested word count. By all means, show some of these things, but don't belabor the point like these examples are doing.

GuitarShank said:

There are a lot of naysayers here who are completely abandoning any and all merit this post actually has.

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If you find merit in it, that's great. More power to you and to your writing. Doesn't mean that merit is something objective which applies to everyone else's work, or something that everyone else should consider.

Queen of Swords said:

If you find merit in it, that's great. More power to you and to your writing. Doesn't mean that merit is something objective which applies to everyone else's work, or something that everyone else should consider.

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It's been said multiple times throughout this thread that this is not applicable to all writers. And I think all things are worth at least considering. If you find it's not for you, then that's up to you.

I stand by my thought that it serves as a good exercise. It's not something to cast aside without consideration.

GuitarShank said:

Thanks for the post, but do you have a link to the original? Surely it wasn't written by that kid on Tumblr

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Here you go!

GuitarShank said:

It's been said multiple times throughout this thread that this is not applicable to all writers.

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And if a writer doesn't feel this is something of merit for that writer's work, I don't think that writer should be called a naysayer simply for disagreeing.

Queen of Swords said:

or something that everyone else should consider.

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Hmm.

I think all advice is something that should at the very least be considered. Whether it gets applied or whether it is deemed unnecessary for the individual author/project is another thing.

I don't see any harm in considering it before dismissing it. There is some good advice in it. Following it to the letter would certainly lead to word bloat or wrecking a writer's confidence.

Since when has any advice posted here ever been considered complete and whole without any due thought on whether it might apply to an individual? The same with advice to completely disregard something wholesale.

Use it if it works for you*, don't if it doesn't. Use some or all. How are any of us to grow as writers if we don't try something? We're all at different points along the path. Some, this advice will be useful, for others it won't.

I guess I'm objecting to the fact that because it doesn't work for an individual, it is worth shooting down as being bad advice for everyone else, which is how a lot of the objections are sounding to me.

*universal you in effect, not directed at QoS

Kenny wondered if Monica didn’t like him going out at night…

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”
Eleven words.

Instead, you’ll have to Un-pack that to something like: “The mornings after Kenny had stayed out, beyond the last bus, until he’d had to bum a ride or pay for a cab and got home to find Monica faking sleep, faking because she never slept that quiet, those mornings, she’d only put her own cup of coffee in the microwave. Never his.”

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Fifty-three words.

No, I don't think this advice would make my work more marketable. I think it would more than double the length of my manuscript, which I do not think would be a good idea.

bearilou said:

Hmm.

I think all advice is something that should at the very least be considered. Whether it gets applied or whether it is deemed unnecessary for the individual author/project is another thing.

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'It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it' - Aristotle.

bearilou said:

I think all advice is something that should at the very least be considered.

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Maybe I should have defined "consider". Personally, if I read something like, "Never start a sentence with And," I don't need to try this out as an exercise to be certain it won't work for me. I read it, I think about it for two seconds, and I decide that it's not the kind of advice I find has merit.

Of course, advice comes in different flavors. Some makes more sense or is worth trying. But I think that too is subjective, and I don't believe that "all" advice deserves the same depth of consideration. Especially if a writer knows it won't work for him or her. If I see advice, for instance, that sex scenes should fade to black, it will definitely not work for me, and I'm not going to give that advice even two seconds of consideration.

Use it if it works for you, don't if it doesn't. Use some or all. How are any of us to grow as writers if we don't try something? We're all at different points along the path. Some, this advice will be useful, for others it won't.

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Exactly. It's something some writers should consider seriously, because it may well work for them, but does that mean we should all give it the same level of thought and consideration?

I guess I'm objecting to the fact that because it doesn't work for an individual, it is worth shooting down as being bad advice for everyone else, which is how a lot of the objects are sounding to me.

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I'm not saying the advice won't work for everyone. I just object to people being called naysayers if they don't find the advice to be of merit.

ETA : Also, I think "there's a time for showing and a time for telling" is great advice. I do not think, "Don't use words like wanted and remembered" is great advice. That's just my take on it.

One paragraph to replace two words? Okay, if that's the way you want to do it. Seems awkward to me. --s6

Never say never, right? I agree there are times for "thought" statements and a character's self-reflection. In general, though, I agree with the sentiment of this post. I actually did go through the first draft of my WIP and searched for "thought" and similar words to weed out those instances. I replaced them with actions, memories, reflections that revealed the inner workings of my character. My work is better for it.

In general, action is more engaging than reflection. We want to follow the MCs story, not live in his/her head following a train of thoughts. I also think readers like to discover the character through that person's actions and memories, rather than have the character or narrator describe the character and relationships by way of "she thought" and "he hated when" statements. We don't want to be spoon fed our characters, do we?

But, of course, there are times when it's better to take the short route. Or even have a character saying something that, in his or her deepest heart, the character doesn't believe. "She hated Thomas." (But really she loves him.)

I'm thinking the application of this advice might actually be POV-dependent. You'd generally want to unpack thought verbs if the piece is in 3rd person, whereas 1st person, I believe, is commonly rife with thought verbs because, after all, its all coming from the MC's thoughts.

That's how it seems to me anyway.

thwaitesyellow said:

Agree with this. I'll definitely be more conscious of how I use all of those "thinking" words now when trying to narrow the narrative distance. But, I don't know if I'm good enough to pull this off all the time. Sometimes I just want a succinct expression of whatever's going on in what I'm reading.

Also, I disliked the example given in the OP about the burying the description of the blue eyes in the action. It feels like it's trying too hard to be clever - if I've already met a character, I don't really care what color her eyes are as she's waving a cigarette around. Just give me all the character description up front (if it's really necessary).

And "Larry knew he was a dead man"? Nope, I'm good with that when used in the right place. "He knew he was a dead man. This was the second year in a row he'd forgotten Mom's birthday."

This advice is clearly what works for him. Maybe it can work for someone else, but probably not for me in a novel. I might experiment by writing a short story like this, though.

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Great discussion about filter words. I think voice dictates over "proper" usage eventually.

"He knew he was a dead man. This was the second year in a row he'd forgotten Mom's birthday." - I think this works very well. As a reader, the emotion of "oh shucks" comes through perfectly.

If I were to tweak it, I might go for : "Larry was a dead man. He'd forgotten Mom's birthday. Again."

GuitarShank said:

There are a lot of naysayers here who are completely abandoning any and all merit this post actually has.

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you're painting with a rather broad brush, as I don't believe anyone said it was universally without merit.


just sayin...

It's a good thought experiment, and you definitely should consider if there's a more effective way to get across those "thought" verbs, but I wouldn't go to the extent of these examples in anything I was trying to get published.

My problem with a lot of those examples is they trend into backstory infodump territory.

quicklime said:

you're painting with a rather broad brush, as I don't believe anyone said it was universally without merit.


just sayin...

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I didn't expect that to be such an inflammatory word. I meant no insult, nor did I mean to make a blanket statement. If that's how it came across, I apologize.

What I meant was, well, bearilou put it best:

bearilou said:

I guess I'm objecting to the fact that because it doesn't work for an individual, it is worth shooting down as being bad advice for everyone else, which is how a lot of the objections are sounding to me.

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Hmm... I think (oops) it would depend on several factors: the author's style, the story, and the POV.

For me, though, I don't mind "thought" verbs, because I'm one of those people who are not good at reading body language and other subtle social cues. Sometimes I would would miss an important cue, and misinterpret someone's emotional state. Also, people can have mixed emotions. For example, one person could be both angry and sad.

In books, I like to hear what the people are thinking and what exactly are they feeling. I'm one of those people who wouldn't mind some straightforward telling.

I've had trouble with a couple of books (bestsellers), recently, because the author focused so much on action, dialogue, and body movements. Not a lot of introspection, either. I couldn't interpret what the characters were thinking or what they were feeling internally. If you were to ask me why some of the characters did something, I would have trouble telling you. It felt like a movie/tv script, instead of a novel.

Wow! Just this morning, while drinking my third cup of coffee, I researched and read several articles about avoiding purple prose and how zombie nouns will lead us all to damnation. I could go on about the finer points of Colombian coffee beans, but I won't bore you into oblivion.

M.S. Wiggins said:

Wow! Just this morning, while drinking my third cup of coffee, I researched and read several articles about avoiding purple prose and how zombie nouns will lead us all to damnation. I could go on about the finer points of Colombian coffee beans, but I won't bore you into oblivion.

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zombie nouns? do enlighten me

I like the idea of removing "thought" as a filter.

I hate the idea of replacing it with other, more distracting filters.

bunny-gypsy said:

Hmm... I think (oops) it would depend on several factors: the author's style, the story, and the POV.

For me, though, I don't mind "thought" verbs, because I'm one of those people who are not good at reading body language and other subtle social cues. Sometimes I would would miss an important cue, and misinterpret someone's emotional state. Also, people can have mixed emotions. For example, one person could be both angry and sad.

In books, I like to hear what the people are thinking and what exactly are they feeling. I'm one of those people who wouldn't mind some straightforward telling.

I've had trouble with a couple of books (bestsellers), recently, because the author focused so much on action, dialogue, and body movements. Not a lot of introspection, either. I couldn't interpret what the characters were thinking or what they were feeling internally. If you were to ask me why some of the characters did something, I would have trouble telling you. It felt like a movie/tv script, instead of a novel.

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See, I'm the opposite. I get quickly bored by introspection (and sometimes go so far as to call it 'naval gazing') or paragraphs where someone feels this or remembers that ...

It's a 'marmite thing' I suppose - something people either like or dislike rather than being inherently right or wrong.

Wilde_at_heart said:

See, I'm the opposite. I get quickly bored by introspection (and sometimes go so far as to call it 'naval gazing') or paragraphs where someone feels this or remembers that ...

It's a 'marmite thing' I suppose - something people either like or dislike rather than being inherently right or wrong.

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Yup, that's why this kind of advice is so subjective.

I understand, though, when too intropsection becomes more navel-gazing.

For me, I read books for introspection, (which may also be why I prefer first-person POV narration over 3rd-person), and I watch tv/movies, play video games, and read comics/manga, whenever I wanted more action. Books don't it for me in that aspect. I also love romances and family stories, so I love reading about feelings, lol.

Ok, I like it. I'm not going to go all boot camp with it, but I'm going to work on it. I'll note when I'm doing one or the other and decide which works better for what I'm doing. Thanks for the post.