Trilogy, series, or something else? Where does my novel fit? Help...

460K regardless of fiction genre is far too large to sell as one book. Half of that is a massive gamble, and a quarter is pushing it. EDIT: These figures are for larger word count novels like Epic Fantasy and the upper word count market. Paranormal Romance sells around a 100K and less for a single book, lower is better (until you dip under 70K) and higher is pushing. Word count is set by what the market has found favorable--market being, readers--and publishers follow these standards because they find greater success by following them. Going outside of the status quo--mostly higher word counts--can be gambles, and going far higher than normal can be near impossible sometimes.

First off, let me ask you: What do you mean by a "whole set"? Typically, you don't query/submit the entire project. You take the first book, as a stand-alone novel, and query/submit that with a note that says, "has series/trilogy potential". The agent takes it on and submits to publishers. The publishers takes on the book and publishes it. There's a chance that the publisher might ask for the next book or the whole set from the start, but it's unlikely nowadays. For a unproven author, a publisher is likely to publish the first book and wait until they see success in it to ask for another or the others.

Now, it's not uncommon for books in a series to need the predecessors, but it's highly suggested that each book should be a stand-alone novel on their own by a certain amount. The first book, IMHO, should be almost entirely--with a small branch-off that hints at another book. A "mini" ending might not be enough. Does that ending resolve the main and most of the problems in the first book? If it does, then that could be seen as an ending that can make the book a stand-alone. The second and third doesn't have to be as strong, IMHO, but should wrap things up well enough to make the reader not feel like they have to buy the next book. You don't need to have the "grand finale" with each book, but you do need their own endings to make them books rather than volumes. Writing them as stand-alones enforce that the reader doens't need to buy another book to feel like they warranted buying even one of them. Commitments can be a hard sell and turn sour for both the reader and publisher.

As to if this is possible, believe it or not this concern comes around a lot. I've seen and personally worked with many writers who have these massive projects--far larger than yours--and after getting critiqued and learning of some large and filling writing problems and understand how they can cut down their writing and storytelling, they can end up with novels that easily meet standards. I've seen a guy with a 300K+ book--and single book--cut it down to under 70K after revising it after a critique. Since you're under 50 posts, you might want to swing around the SYW section and look into putting your work up there. At 50 posts, you can put your work up for critique and see if anything can be cut down--if not the entire opening, which sometimes happens. Please don't make the "mad dash" to 50 posts by writing a lot of one-liners, so take your time and even critique work in the SYW section to get used to critiquing and what you're in for. If you hang around the forums enough, you can also make some friends and ask them if they'd like to beta-read and help you cut down your story.

I am a fan of large books. I hate a book I can read in 3-4 hours, but I know others who want to be able to read an entire book in one sitting and then move on to another book.

eBooks lend themselves to being larger than print book as the cost of "printing" goes away.

Many writers tend to write much more than they need and don't want to trim any of their words... so the concept of a very large first draft and smaller final release is nothing new.

Publishers have long felt the need to restrict the size of print books to keep their risk/costs lower, and it's my opinion this has caused many authors to suffer the unnecessary pruning of their work.

Many here will disagree with me and that's fine, but as it's my opinion, by the nature of an opinion you may have a different one however that does not make my opinion any less valid or valuable than yours.

My first book has 270,000 words. I've been told by the experts here that it's too long. I self-published in December and sales are steady and rising. Two very successful authors in my genre, each with over 50 titles to their names, read it and told me to release it at this length and don't pare it down. I believe their advice over the criticism I received from people here, so that's what I did. Time, and sales, will tell if it's the right decision or not.

Several things will stand in your way with a long book even if you self-publish.

1) Reviewers. You will find it more challenging to get beta readers and reviewers for a long book. How long is too long? I don't know for sure, but my 270,000 words were acceptable for 35 beta readers who were not my friends, along with another 15 close friends and family. I suspect at 130,000 words I would have had an easier time getting strangers to read it, but I'm pleased with the feedback I received from the ones who did make the commitment.

Agents and trade publishing houses will likely not read it at all until it fits into their length guidelines, so it can be brilliant work but it will likely get rejected without being read.

2) Print Copies. If you self-publish, all of the POD services have a limit on the number of pages they will print. CreateSpace has a limit of 828 pages. Blurb is much lower than this. All of them will limit you, and trade publishers will be very harsh. POD copies will be very expensive. My 270k word novel has a minimum price through CreateSpace of $22 - that's no profit, just print costs. Paperback sales will be limited as a result of this, however a dozen copies were bought at Christmas which did surprise me.

3) Audio Book length. This is one that I did not consider at all when I published, and though I now have several auditions for audio publishers through ACX, the book will be roughly 29 hours when read aloud. That's a bunch. I'm considering whether or not to go forward with this project now.

If my book does not sell well this next year, I will take it down, rewrite it into two books and republish. It's an interesting concept and I have a strategy to do this, but I'm going to test the waters with the book at this size first.

Book II in my series is about 2/3 finished and should come in around 130,000 words when completed. I am going to go ahead and publish Book II before I make a rewrite decision on Book I. If Book I sells well, no need to rewrite. If it doesn't sell well, a rewrite doesn't impact enough people to make a difference. Since I'm self-publishing, I get to make that decision, not a publishing house. No one to blame but myself.

I'm going to add a prequel to the series, and make it free to introduce people to my work. The prequel will likely be 50,000 words. The outline is finished and I think it will be enough to bring people in who are reluctant to read an unknown, even after reading a free 10% sample download.

I refuse to give away Book I at 270,000 words to a mass audience - though I have and will continue to offer free review copies and some other promotional deals that offer the book for free without risk of a price match from Amazon. Be creative and there are ways to do this as well. I have given away roughly 2000 copies of the eBook so far without advertising they are free, so there is no risk of a price match on Amazon and my book dropping to free there...

Good luck to you in your project.

I don't know if any of this is of value, and as I'm new to this business, very stubborn, and generally go my own way rather than follow the masses, you should take that into account as well...

One last piece of advice.

Always try to weigh the value of the advice you receive - and that includes anything from guys like me - and make your decisions based on your desires, and not the so-called standards or edicts of others. It's your work, you should write, edit, publish and distribute the way you want, and not the way someone else wants, or the way an expert on an Internet forum tells you to do it.

What Osulagh said. (And he said it well.)
Although I disagree about mentioning your book's series potential. Atleast in the query stage. It might make a prospective agent think the book does not stand on its own weight. If it's well written and sells well, the editor will beg you to write sequels.
Robert J. Sawyer's "Farseer" was meant to be a standalone novel. He had even killed off his MC in the final scene. The editors liked the book so much they had Sawyer change the ending to make a sequel possible.

LJackson said:

Osulagh, thank you for the detailed explanation. It is much appreciated. I understand size is a serious problem - heck, I wouldn't myself pick up an gigantic book in a bookstore by an unknown author either. Therefore, my thought is more along the line of publishing the first smaller, more manageable book, and continuing with the sequels, if the first one receives favorable market response. I am just not sure whether the first one can be considered a stand alone with what I have.

This sounds as if you're planning on publishing these yourself, but your original post discussed agents and editors. I'm going to go with the idea that you mean 'publishing' here as through those means, trade publishing.

As Os said, you'd pitch the first as a standalone (presuming it is), with series potential. A publisher interested in the first would likely be interested in the subsequent, yes, presuming one sold, and would likely have right of first refusal anyway (it's often included in contracts).

Please allow me to explain.... In the book one of Twilight series, a certain resolution is reached (Bella and Edwards get together, sort of), but a larger question of their long term relationship is uncertain. As a reader I knew for sure that there must be something else later, and I would be quite put off if that were really the "end".

Mine is sort of similar except at the end of the first part, the female protagonist's rational mind wins out, and she decides to break away. Here the readers may see it as a reasonable end, as she has met obstacles, struggled, and made her final decision. Or, readers may see it as a damn cliffhanger, where a happily ever after is not reached. There is enough there to suggest that the story is not over. Perhaps this question can be answered by beta readers?

Perhaps. Generally, a standalone with series potential wraps up the main storyline of that book, while leaving open threads that can continue the overall arc. There are different ways to do it. A cliffhanger you don't want though, no.

As to posting to SYW, would it be advisable to post the first chapter, or the last, since it is my greatest confusion, the ending? And thank you for the gentle nudge not to make a mad dash to 50 posts - don't plan to do that, . Though, I have to admit, I have lurked around the SYW myself, and found it really difficult to critique. I was so confused by some posts that I don't know where to start the critique, and while others are rather nice that I'm not sure what else to say in addition to whatever were already said...

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You can post whatever you like. Mostly, people post openings, as they don't, or shouldn't, require explanation, and critters can pinpoint basic issues that people are looking for help with.

I'd wager, just because it's often the issue, that your wc can be cut, but that's something you can think about and get feedback on in SYW. You can also post the end if you like, but you may find the brainstorming sandbox better for that.

As to critiquing yourself, there are a number of posts on this issue, but you don't have to say things like other posters do, or things you're not comfortable with. Even if all you think is that something is good or not working or you agree with another poster's point or something. People post on SYW to get a variety of opinions, so saying 'I think X is right,' is helpful too.

LJackson said:

Osulagh, thank you for the detailed explanation. It is much appreciated. I understand size is a serious problem - heck, I wouldn't myself pick up an gigantic book in a bookstore by an unknown author either. Therefore, my thought is more along the line of publishing the first smaller, more manageable book, and continuing with the sequels, if the first one receives favorable market response. I am just not sure whether the first one can be considered a stand alone with what I have.

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You'll find commonly that books in a series tend to become larger as the series progresses. It's not really a "thing" that's done, but it happens and in that way you can meet word count standards with the first and stretch--little by little--the word count out a bit with the other books.

Please allow me to explain.... In the book one of Twilight series, a certain resolution is reached (Bella and Edwards get together, sort of), but a larger question of their long term relationship is uncertain. As a reader I knew for sure that there must be something else later, and I would be quite put off if that were really the "end".

Mine is sort of similar except at the end of the first part, the female protagonist's rational mind wins out, and she decides to break away. Here the readers may see it as a reasonable end, as she has met obstacles, struggled, and made her final decision. Or, readers may see it as a damn cliffhanger, where a happily ever after is not reached. There is enough there to suggest that the story is not over. Perhaps this question can be answered by beta readers?

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Funny enough, Twilight is one of the longest YA Paranormal Fantasy books out there.

I'm still uncertain about your ending, so I guess leave it up to beta-readers. You don't have to solve every problem, but within the scope of that book the problems that arose should be resolved. The hero stopped the big baddy from destroying their town, but the baddy escaped. Saving the town was the goal of the book, and the hero accomplished that. Resolve the main problems of that part of the story and try rounding off some of the ending so the reader doesn't feel obligated to read the next book.

As to posting to SYW, would it be advisable to post the first chapter, or the last, since it is my greatest confusion, the ending? And thank you for the gentle nudge not to make a mad dash to 50 posts - don't plan to do that, . Though, I have to admit, I have lurked around the SYW myself, and found it really difficult to critique. I was so confused by some posts that I don't know where to start the critique, and while others are rather nice that I'm not sure what else to say in addition to whatever were already said...

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Endings and posting mid-story chapters often come of as confusing. It's best to put up your first chapter. Although, with enough explanation, you can post your ending, it would just be very hard for someone to jump into it and try to critique without the entire book already read to back it up.

You don't have to be an expert critic, but at least say something constructive. Say what you liked or what you didn't like. Perhaps something confused you, or you didn't like what they were doing with their writing. Be honest and clear. Even the little things can help. And it's always good to read what others have to say because you can learn from them as well.

I suggest, read the rules and guidelines in the Main Board of the SYW section. Post your first chapter, or like around 2,500 words. Tell them that you'd like some suggestions to cut or boil down your writing. Hell, if you feel like it, hit me up as I like to hack away at stuff.

sabindanjoup, "with series potential" is widely used and doesn't exactly turn agents/editors away as we're talking about having the potential for a series (sometimes this can be a great positive). Although as you said you can just not say that in the querying stage. When you and the agent talk about the book, you can always bring it up then or they would already feel as if there was other books to accompany it.

LJackson said:

Mine is sort of similar except at the end of the first part, the female protagonist's rational mind wins out, and she decides to break away. Here the readers may see it as a reasonable end, as she has met obstacles, struggled, and made her final decision. Or, readers may see it as a damn cliffhanger, where a happily ever after is not reached. There is enough there to suggest that the story is not over. Perhaps this question can be answered by beta readers?

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This sounds like an okay end. I would pitch it as such: "BOOK TITLE is a stand-alone with series potential." If/when an agent is interested, I'm sure the agent would ask you what are your plans for the book. That's when you mention that you've written the other books in the series.

LJackson said:

Just saw your edit, and I found myself suffering a major confusion.... What exactly is considered an Epic Fantasy? I mean, my story focuses on the love story, but the plot is moved by the numerous dangers they encounter - paranormal creature, wild chase through plain, betrayal, feud, sword fight, and war, and I think I move the plot rather quickly. They don't sit there professing love. They are in a lot of fast moving "actions"...

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Without getting too much into it, Epic Fantasy is a epic in scale story involving worldly problems set in an alternative world. Like, the young farmer boy must find the mythical sword and gather the kingdoms to slay the Evil Lord before he destroys the world. Or, like the most widely thought of series, The Lord of the Rings.

Romance, action, betrayal and other small aspects are typically not the headlining genre. You said paranormal and and romance and mentioned Twilight, so I went with paranormal romance. Although it can depend, typically that 100K word count mark doens't move much. If you're writing Epic Fantasy, you can go up to like 150K and start pushing it. if you're writing Paranormal Romance set in our world at our time, then 100K will be pushing it.

Does your world take place in ours or another? At what time period?

Thewitt said:

eBooks lend themselves to being larger than print book as the cost of "printing" goes away.

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If the cost of "printing" (why the quote-marks?) were the only cost incurred when publishing then your point would be fine: but the costs of editing, typesetting, and so on are all higher on significantly longer books too.

Publishers have long felt the need to restrict the size of print books to keep their risk/costs lower, and it's my opinion this has caused many authors to suffer the unnecessary pruning of their work.

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There are good reasons for limiting the length of books.

As I said already, editing, typesetting, printing and so on all cost more on significantly longer books.

But longer books are bigger physical objects, too, so storing and transporting them is more expensive; shelving two very long books means that five smaller books can't be on those same shelves, which restricts reader choice.

More importantly, though, experience and studies show that most readers prefer books of the sorts of length that trade publishers publish. That's why they publish those lengths! If readers preferred longer books, believe me: that's what trade publishers would want.

Books which are too long mean that readers lose interest or focus before they finish them. And that's not good.

Always try to weigh the value of the advice you receive - and that includes anything from guys like me - and make your decisions based on your desires, and not the so-called standards or edicts of others. It's your work, you should write, edit, publish and distribute the way you want, and not the way someone else wants, or the way an expert on an Internet forum tells you to do it.

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This is good advice. But it's also important to consider the expertise of the people who are giving you advice (for example, I've worked in publishing for decades, have edited more books than I can remember, and have had more than forty books published).

By all means listen to everyone. But weigh their advice carefully, and consider how qualified they are to give you that advice.

LJackson said:

I have considered briefly self-publishing, but will use it only as the very last resort. The biggest reason? Economy. My understanding is that self-publishing you need to do all the works yourself, and I have a very demanding full-time job already. I will not be able to devote the amount of time and energy necessary to make this book as good, and reach as many people, as it can be, not by myself anyway; and I want it good, and I want it read by many. For this to happen, I need someone to help me with cover page, marketing, and most importantly, a great editor to tear down my manuscript to make it great. I can do much editing myself, but I'm not as good as a professional editor.

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Self publishing is a great thing to do but you're right: it's time-consuming and difficult to do well.

It should never be something you do as a last resort. If you want to self publish then do it: but don't do it because you've failed to interest a trade publisher in your works.

sabindanjoup said:

What Osulagh said. (And he said it well.)
Although I disagree about mentioning your book's series potential. Atleast in the query stage. It might make a prospective agent think the book does not stand on its own weight. If it's well written and sells well, the editor will beg you to write sequels.

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If you've written a great book, agents are likely to want to represent you. If it has series potential, and is in the right genre, that's a definite selling-point so you really should mention it. If it has series potential AND those sequels are already written, and are as strong as the first book, you're likely to get a contract for all three.

However, if any of the books are weak, or if they don't stand alone, or if they're far too long or require a lot of editing, you will not get past the first hurdle.

Make sure the first book in the series can stand alone, and is as tight and strong as you can make it. Mention its series potential in your query. And good luck.

sabindanjoup said:

Although I disagree about mentioning your book's series potential. Atleast in the query stage. It might make a prospective agent think the book does not stand on its own weight.

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My query letter pitched my first book as having "series potential". When my (now) agent called out of the blue to talk to me about the MS he'd requested, his first question was "You said this was the first of a potential series. Can you tell me where you see the larger story arc heading?"

So. Not every agent is the same, but it worked to my advantage to mention it in the query letter.

LJackson said:

Is there such a thing as epic love story?

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Go to your local bookshop if you're lucky enough to still have one. Look at the categories they split their shelves into. Work out where your book fits on the shelves.

LJackson said:

Hi, Old Hack, when I said it would be my last resort, I meant that I would resort to it if all agents reject it merely because of the word count. If it isn't a good enough book to publish, I don't think I'd be interested in publishing it.

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That's good.

My concern may be ridiculous for old timers, but I was told more than once, that I had NO chance, - note, no chance, - regardless whether it was any good or not.

I don't know whether that statement is true, but I must keep that in mind.

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Based on its length?

You could submit it as it is but if you do, you're guaranteeing that you're going to get automatic rejections from some of the agents who see it just because it is so long.

You said your trilogy ran to 460k words and you query just one book at a time, so that's 153k words per book, roughly. It's still on the long side. I bet I could easily cut it down to 110k, probably less, without you even noticing what I'd sliced away.

Cutting it down would almost certainly make it better. So why not do that?

I guess what I am trying to find out is, assuming I have a compelling story, what is the best approach to agents, despite the size? I don't want them to balk at the size.

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They will baulk at the size. You do need to cut this if you want to give it its best shot at publication.

Why don't you spend a little time helping our other members in Share Your Work; when you get to fifty posts start your own thread there, and see what everyone has to say. If the general consensus is that your work is wonderful just as it is, there's your answer; but if you're advised to cut it, you'll know what you have to do.
http://absolutewrite.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

Sorry to hijack the post. I have a similar question.
When do you submit the first of your trilogy to agents? Is it when you have completed all three? but with the potential of part 2 and 3 never seeing the light of day?
Or do you send your first, then get to work on the sequel?

What about a series of novels, with set characters in different events/stories? e.g. detective/crime novels.

I'd write the first, and submit it without writing any further books.

If the first fails to sell the second and third are not likely to sell either, and if you've not written them you've not wasted your time on them.

But do have an idea of where the series could go, just in case.

hunnypot said:

Sorry to hijack the post. I have a similar question.
When do you submit the first of your trilogy to agents? Is it when you have completed all three? but with the potential of part 2 and 3 never seeing the light of day?
Or do you send your first, then get to work on the sequel?

What about a series of novels, with set characters in different events/stories? e.g. detective/crime novels.

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When I was querying, I had the first novel finished, and ideas for more. I stated that in the query (novel of X number of words with series potential).

When my (soon-to-be) agent called me, the first thing he asked was "Where do you see the series going?". He then asked for outlines for the second and third books and we discussed the pros and cons of A) selling the completed book as a standalone, B) selling the completed book as the first of a trilogy, C) selling the completed book as the first of a series (more than three).

My second and third novels (a Renaissance Fantasy and Weird Western, respectively) have been similarly written. They are self-contained, with the potential to be a trilogy/trilogy+, and include outlines of the second and third books as part of the submission material.

This way I don't waste time on writing books that can't be sold until the first in the series sells. So my time goes into a fresh chance with each book. (And since a first novel written is not always the first sold, they are building a potential backlist.)

hunnypot said:

Sorry to hijack the post. I have a similar question.
When do you submit the first of your trilogy to agents? Is it when you have completed all three? but with the potential of part 2 and 3 never seeing the light of day?
Or do you send your first, then get to work on the sequel?

What about a series of novels, with set characters in different events/stories? e.g. detective/crime novels.

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I'll respond to the hijack, since I'm in that situation, and several of my friends have been.

Sometimes writers only have one book written when they get picked up by an agent or publisher, and then there is a mad scramble to A) put a proposal together (my friend hadn't even thought beyond the first book and in a few days had to write the synopses for two more) B) turn out the books in a VERY small window of time.

Another friend of mine took too long in getting the third book out - the publisher ended up releasing the trilogy as an omnibus and never published his final book on its own.

(These are both Big-5 publisher examples!)


If the story is definitely a trilogy, then write at least the first draft complete. Or write a stand-alone to see if you can complete a project THEN do the trilogy. Having a waffling writing style that can't wrap itself up within 100K does not a story make, unfortunately. The only way is to find out!

PS: I wrote my trilogy complete, polished the first, and got to querying.