An issue of length

Fruitbat · Nov 19, 2014

Randy, I think you'll do fine because you do seem to thoughtfully consider what others have to say. It's the ones who think they know it all, even with little experience, who never seem to progress. From what I saw, you have a good story. It just needs some tightening up. It needs those other eyes on it. Good luck!

RandyPendleton · Nov 19, 2014

Thanks to you both. Yeah, after a reader PM'ed me a good critique, I NOW truly see what I've done wrong. Cutting this by 50%, I'm not sure. But weeding out at LEAST 25-30% looks both necessary and doable. I'm taking everyone's advice: this is getting a new draft. I'll pull it from sale and as I now know what I need to do, I won't post the 2nd chapter as planned. I'll work up to 50 posts and use the SYW forums. I'll also rewrite the blurb... or at least I might. If this goes into the hands of agents, we'll just have to see where the chips fall.

To conclude about the issue of length: my problem SEEMED to be whether or not to try sell a 132k or so word MS. As it turns out, it might be closer to the generally-accepted length with another edit or 2. I'll do that.

William Haskins said:
randy you've had a hell of a journey and you're obviously focused, ambitious, bright - and perhaps talented.

but you're long-winded as hell and it's been apparent from your first post. it persists and insists throughout your linked sample.

pay attention to these nice people. they have no reason to lie to you.

Fruitbat said:
Randy, I think you'll do fine because you do seem to thoughtfully consider what others have to say. It's the ones who think they know it all, even with little experience, who never seem to progress. From what I saw, you have a good story. It just needs some tightening up. It needs those other eyes on it. Good luck!

Marian Perera · Nov 19, 2014

I'm really pleased you found a solution that worked for you.

And the fact that you read the critique and will apply it to your manuscript says a lot about your professionalism and commitment to putting out the best possible book. As a previous poster said, you'll do fine.

RandyPendleton · Nov 19, 2014

I honestly didn't want to have to. You're right though: I want the best product possible. Hate to say it, but I was wrong: this book was NOT ready when I thought it was. My biggest regret is not signing up here years ago

But I'm close to being finished. I'm not giving up

Marian Perera said:
I'm really pleased you found a solution that worked for you.

And the fact that you read the critique and will apply it to your manuscript says a lot about your professionalism and commitment to putting out the best possible book. As a previous poster said, you'll do fine.

mccardey · Nov 19, 2014

RandyPendleton said:
I honestly didn't want to have to. You're right though: I want the best product possible. Hate to say it, but I was wrong: this book was NOT ready when I thought it was. My biggest regret is not signing up here years ago But I'm close to being finished. I'm not giving up

Oh, bless you - the damned things are never ready when we think they are! It's the price you pay for being a writer who wants a reader.

Old Hack · Nov 20, 2014

RandyPendleton said:
I know the difference between the two, but I tend to use the terms (incorrectly, I’m aware) interchangeably. I need to keep in mind that I’m at a real writing forum, not merely posting on Facebook. These swaps are likely frowned upon here.

It's not that they're frowned on, Randy: it's confusing when you do that.

“Live” and “available” are different terms. I hope you get that No one said I want my work available forever.

This is what you wrote, Randy:

RandyPendleton said:
For all of my sacrifices, I honestly feel getting my work sold via trade would be verification of my abilities, a vindication for the mess my life is--well, let me truncate this with simply: If I could write one book that will live on past my own life, nothing else would really matter to me (in a career sense). The short lifespan of a POD book isn’t feasible to me, not when I eat/sleep/love/breathe/live my work. It’s all I have.

A self-published book is more likely to remain available for purchase for a long time than a trade published book.

Assuming you mean "self published" and not POD there, then why do you think a self-published book would have a short lifespan? Are you referring to the physical quality of a book produced by digital printing, or is there something I'm missing here?

Could you possibly tell me a # of a page with a lot needed to be cut? If it could be cut by half, I’d like to read the page over to myself, to see what I should give the ax to. It’d benefit me greatly

I've just read through the Amazon sample of your book and there's no one page I'd single out. It all needs cutting. There's extraneous detail and overwriting on every page, I'm afraid.

So Potter 5 going ever so long, far beyond the optimal length, is a bad thing--and you think I was wrong? Fans knew how long the book was and still read it like gospel. It’s what they wanted to read--they wanted more of the world of Harry Potter. So I’m not quite sure what surprises you about my reply. If you give a fan more of what he wants, he’ll be happy.

You're not JKR, though, and so you can't apply this to your own work. It's not a reliable indicator.

When you've sold as many copies as Ms Rowling you'll be able to write books to whatever length you want and publishers will snap them up. Meanwhile, if you want a trade deal you have to give publishers what they know they can sell, which means books of specific length depending on genre. And there is still no correlation between quality and extent, in that a longer book is not automatically a better read than a shorter one. Frankly, I think we've beaten this point to death.

But you also stated that unless you were Rowling, it’d be impossible to cut 400 pages of a book.

I didn't.

I suggest you reread my comments because I now wonder if you've misunderstood anything else I've said.
http://absolutewrite.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/http://absolutewrite.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

Fruitbat · Nov 20, 2014

I wouldn't even consider Harry Potter or any other teensy-tiny percentage that breaks all the rules and miraculously, against all odds, somehow becomes a big hit anyway. That's a pipe dream, not a plan.

cornflake · Nov 20, 2014

Rowling has said at least some of the later books should have been cut. She was given a very free hand, for obvious reasons, and in retrospect apparently would have preferred she and/or her editors took another look or six and cut stuff way down, as the work would be better for it.

Toothpaste · Nov 20, 2014

Yes, I was going to say the same thing. Rowling got away with something, but that doesn't mean she should have. She herself even admits she wishes she had trimmed down especially Book 5. That's what editors are for normally. Sometimes we authors really don't know what's best for our own work.

Which is what you are acknowledging and which I think is truly fantastic. Also, don't you go worrying about some arbitrary timeline. I say this a lot, but I'll say it again, as an actress I spend most days worrying about my age and if I'm past my prime and if I should even bother keeping on trying. Age matters when it comes to acting. Even though it's easier for men, it still matters to them too.

But in publishing, ah what freedom! Age doesn't matter! You can publish at any age, have success at any age, it's wonderful! There is no timeline. All that matters is you produce the highest quality of work you can. You're on the right path when it comes to that so just be like Finding Nemo and "just keep swimming".

RandyPendleton · Nov 20, 2014

I'm honestly not sure why ppl think I'm comparing myself to Rowling. I've said specifically that I'm nowhere close to her, an I'm not an exception to the norm. Anyway, all of your opinions are still welcome.

RandyPendleton · Nov 20, 2014

BTW Rowling was rushed with the last 2 or so books. That's according to her. This might explain things

Toothpaste · Nov 20, 2014

Because you used it as an example of how some authors get away with writing long. We assumed the reason you brought her up was to show that since she was allowed to get away with it, you should be too. Just like when you said you wouldn't watch a shorter lame film we assumed that you therefore thought short books were also lame.

You have corrected those misperceptions, but that's why. Words make a difference to your message. We are just trying to figure out what you are trying to say. We understand better now, but it took a little time.

ETA: Also I said a lot more than just the Rowling stuff. Hopefully you read it too because I was trying to give you a nice little pep talk there!

Little Ming · Nov 20, 2014

RandyPendleton said:
I'm honestly not sure why ppl think I'm comparing myself to Rowling. I've said specifically that I'm nowhere close to her, an I'm not an exception to the norm. Anyway, all of your opinions are still welcome.

It's not all about you. Many people read these forums, and maybe someone saw you mention Rowling and thought "See! Exception!" and we're just saying "but that's because she's Rowling."

Though I will say when I read the beginning of this thread I wasn't sure how it was going to play out. I'm glad you're taking all the advice here so well. And that is about you.

RandyPendleton · Nov 20, 2014

Ah, that makes sense

I suppose my earlier messages just weren't clear. Honestly Rowling is a rare exception. If I ever tried to replicate her, I'm pretty sure I'd fail

Toothpaste said:
Because you used it as an example of how some authors get away with writing long. We assumed the reason you brought her up was to show that since she was allowed to get away with it, you should be too. Just like when you said you wouldn't watch a shorter lame film we assumed that you therefore thought short books were also lame.

You have corrected those misperceptions, but that's why. Words make a difference to your message. We are just trying to figure out what you are trying to say. We understand better now, but it took a little time.

ETA: Also I said a lot more than just the Rowling stuff. Hopefully you read it too because I was trying to give you a nice little pep talk there!

RandyPendleton · Nov 20, 2014

Just like in the domaining industry: ppl see the sales figures @ sedo.com and say, "Wow, this is easy money!" Then, they go broke buying worthless domains. It's never as simple as seeing one's success and thinking it can be easily replicated

Little Ming said:
It's not all about you. Many people read these forums, and maybe someone saw you mention Rowling and thought "See! Exception!" and we're just saying "but that's because she's Rowling."

Though I will say when I read the beginning of this thread I wasn't sure how it was going to play out. I'm glad you're taking all the advice here so well. And that is about you.

Karin1130 · Dec 3, 2014

Hi everyone. I am an experienced writer (27 years), but this is my first nonfiction book. I have written what I originally thought was a memoir but now realize it is an autobiography. The book starts in my adolescence and continues through my 50's. It tells of being brought up by my Al Capone era Mob grandparents and alcoholic parents. It details overcoming sexual abuse, a brutal beating and hospitalization, life in an orphange, and abandonment. It culminates in how I learned to forgive and overcome my past through spirituality and by discovering that I could talk to angels. The book is 120,000 words. It has been rewritten and edited many times. Is this an acceptable length for an autobiography or memoir? I have researched similar books and lately they are running anywhere between 300 and 400 published pages. Thanks in advance for your help. P.S. Hope I posted this correctly.

CathleenT · Dec 3, 2014

Karin, I'm afraid I don't have enough experience to give you an intelligent answer to your question.

I posted this to say that if you don't get many responses on this thread, it's probably because people thought you were responding to the original poster, not that you had a length question of your own.

You may get responses; sometimes threads evolve to where there are many posters on them with the same question. But if you do not, go ahead and start a new thread. You can call it 'Another question of length - nonfiction, 120,000 words' or something like that.

The way you start a new thread is to go to the upper left hand corner. Underneath the User CP link on the toolbar is a button for new threads. It will post on the correct forum.

When you're done, you might want to click on the User CP link. That shows 'rep points,' which are essentially just nice little messages that we send each other that aren't too long. If you click on it, you'll find one from me.

Welcome to AW!

Old Hack · Dec 3, 2014

There's no need for Karin to start a new thread as I've done it for her. Karin, follow this link and you'll find your thread.

RandyPendleton · Dec 22, 2014

It's been awhile. I figured it'd be a good iea to post a little update on my progress. I would have opened a new thread, but this seemed better.

I want to thank everyone for their opinions. I have two books to edit (after reading this thread, I chose to edit my other book again). I've yet to do the other one, the book this thread was in reference to. But from editing my current book, I truly see my error. I've had ppl in here tell me, "This seems verbose." Old Hack even said a substantial amount could be removed. At first, this seemed impractical. But I've found/erased a load of unnecessary text from the current book. I have a better idea now of what I need to do. If I wrap this book's edits up by new years (it's a good possibility), I'll use January to PROPERLY edit the other book. Who knows? I might have my 50 posts by then & could finally add some of my work to be critiqued

But again, thanks to all. And happy holidays!

An issue of length

Fruitbat

.

RandyPendleton

Marian Perera

starting over

RandyPendleton

mccardey

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Fruitbat

.

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

RandyPendleton

RandyPendleton

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

Little Ming

RandyPendleton

RandyPendleton

Karin1130

CathleenT

I write

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

RandyPendleton