I’ve yet to do my day’s writing. This, however, should be typed out first. I’ve read the thread completely and wanted to reply last night. But now that I’m more awake and better prepared to type out a reply, I’ll do it now.
I signed up to this forum in the hope of learning more, to hone my craft the best I can by interacting with other writers. It’s fair to say I’ve learned so much in this thread. It makes the whole thing well worth my time registering. That said, I’ll address everything possible.
It seems that some people could read the link I had originally in my sig while others couldn’t. I’ve replaced the link to point at a .pdf file I have of chapter 2. Should anyone not be capable of accessing this, please let me know.
There are so many debates in this world that I couldn’t possibly list them all. Some are important issues (i.e. pro-life vs abortion) while others are silly (does this world really need a Yankees/Red Sox rivalry?). But the one that hits home to most writers is the struggle with self-publishing vs trade. There are pros and cons to both. From all I’ve researched, the stigma of self publishing no longer carries such a weight a la “This book sucked and could only be printed on demand.” Maybe this is the case these days/maybe not. (Remember my ink price vs paper price post. In fact, try saying that 3 times, really fast) Some people simply wanna get published quicker, necessitating the self-publishing route. Others see more pride into trade publishing. It’s all a game of preference.
With me, it is pride--to an extent. As my little
autobiographical story/ discusses, I’ve gone through hell and back so many times, I have the route memorized, down to the countless Hitler and Michael Bolton billboards on the sides. I’ve lost my health, my sociality, my hopes of ever living a normal life… not to mention the loss of body parts and my hearing. I’m not an arrogant person, no. But writing is my life. I have no wife, no kids etc. I spend most of the day, everyday, in my room, typing out things on my laptop. For all of my sacrifices, I honestly feel getting my work sold via trade would be verification of my abilities, a vindication for the mess my life is--well, let me truncate this with simply: If I could write one book that will live on past my own life, nothing else would really matter to me (in a career sense). The short lifespan of a POD book isn’t feasible to me, not when I eat/sleep/love/breathe/live my work. It’s all I have.
You prequel idea is a good one. The bad thing is that neither my current book nor my first has any potential for one. My current book is wrapped around a certain event, and there is no plausible way I could shadow back on the characters in a way that wouldn’t seem like a “Dumb and Dumberer” money-grab. It wouldn’t do well. With the former book, it’s a coming-of-age thing. The main characters are already pretty young, and a prequel would be more or less chapter 1 of this story stretched out to book-length. Read the rest of this post: it has more insights for you.
Other than writing, I am a professional internet real estate (domain name) investor. My experience with it helps with the writing life. One good example: Some investors query 2, 3 potential buyers at a time--but why? When the majority of ppl will say no, there really wouldn’t be sense in contacting only one or so at a time. SPAMMING is bad and should never be done. But if you have 20 potential buyers, contact them all (or at least ½ of them) on the same day. Expedite the process, ya know? I only touched the waters last time I sought an agent. I’ll try harder this time. And yeah, that means contacting more than 6 agents.
An irresistible query letter is a must. Again, just going by what I was told, but I’ve read agents are pretty much hotwired/programmed to say ‘no’ before they even open your envelope. Your job is to convince them to reconsider. All of this is on a different subject but when the time comes, I’ll post about query letters. But you’re right: the letter has to make the agent want more.
This is the reason I made this thread. Some genres are historically short while others are typically large. Upon replying to everyone, I will add a conclusion, the things I’ve learned and decided. You might wanna check that out.
By this, I was just trying to assure people my work isn’t totally fluff. There is a little (is it needed? Should I remove it? I’ll have to look). I think back to Potter 5. It’s like, 890 pages, and over 400 could easily have been removed. I can’t speak for my new book--I’ve got to properly edit it--but my first could work better with at least 5-10 pages cut. It’s not 200 pages of story and 130 of fluff. That’s all I meant.
This is the painful truth. Again, in domain investing: a person might have 10 .com’s that are ugly/could never sell yet are held because the owner has a personal affinity with them. Sure, it’s okay to be attached to 1 or 2, but holding 10 pointless/worthless .com’s eventually will take a large bite out of you, as yearly renewal fees are $10-15 PER DOMAIN. If something is bad or merely an anchor, it’s best to sever ties with it.
There is a long story to it, but I’ll be brief. It goes by what we’ve said above about holding onto unneeded things just because you have an affinity with it. Personally, I like it. I truly do. But it seriously needs to go. In a 6*9 book format, the passage is about 7 pages. Here is a structure I tend to use on page counts:
(These are using MS Word defaults)
Chapters 1-2 should be around 10 pages, no more than 18
Chapters 3-about halfway through could be around 22-26 pages each
The rest, up to the last/2nd to last should be 24-30
Last 2, as they have the climax and resolution, could top out at 35
Using this, I can see the chapters I have that I feel are on par with norms and those that are WAY too verbose. I found 2 chapters of this current book that are 39 & 40 pages, while the rest are at or close to my specifications. Chapter 2 of the 1st book--the one in my sig--goes way beyond what I allot such early chapters. I simply liked it and felt it was needed for the story. I still think it would be good, but it’s not needed. And of course, readers won’t wanna go through 50 pages just to get to the crux. Just like an ugly domain I feel for, I’m gonna have to let this passage go. It’ll free up almost 2,000 words and will get the reader to the crux a lot quicker.
I know this. My post was a “melting pot of elements” of the story. I’ve never really stated what the genre is for my new book.
I like your suggestions and will keep them in mind. Thanks
There are a few posts in reply to this. My own reply? I don’t want to see a lame 90 minute movie when I can instead see a 2 1/4 hour epic. I want something that’ll take me somewhere, and I don’t feel like 90 minutes will do the job. The issue, of course, is: how can we be sure this 2-hour blockbuster is worth our time? And: How could we readily say the 90-minute flick was a waste? Critics don’t count--they are usually wrong or biased. If only we have the Comics Code Authority to tell us a book is a quality read. Even then: quality to whose standards?
I believe this is true to an extent. If the reader loves what he is reading, then stretching 50k to, say, 75k or even 100k doesn’t seem truly bad. But the additional text would need to be something worth reading, not a 7 page description of a lake or car. If you could stretch 50k into 250k words worth reading, you’d have to be extremely talented. But that’s not a challenge anyone should ever take.
Hmmm That’s basically what I said. Otherwise you misunderstood me, or I didn’t phrase myself right. It might have been the latter.
You are wise. Before I started this thread, I thought of my first book as being complete. “It’s what I’m comfortable with,” I told myself. But now that it’s been awhile, I think I’m more comfortable weeding it a bit more
The link in my sig now takes you to the .pdf of the chapter. Even I can’t read this flip-book all that well. The print’s too small.
I do wonder about the description. It’s no light and cheery, no. The reason is to alert potential readers of the nature of the story. There is no knight-in-shining-armor in it, and it has its unpleasantness. I know of the whole my mom-thinks-it’s-great syndrome: you can’t take the words of family/friends as gospel. That said, I’ve had perfect strangers read the book & they loved it. Now, that’s not to say my book truly is good. The point of what I typed is that people read the description, knew what they were getting into, and still chose to read it. “False advertising” is a terrible thing to do: ppl want to know what they’re getting into. If I tried to make my story sound hopeful or optimistic, I’ll only earn frowns and pissed-off readers. (Did you know that back in the late 60s, Black Sabbath was hired to do peace/hippie music by a club who heard the band’s then-name [Earth] & saw a hippie flier with balloon letters? The manager actually paid them to NOT perform their heavy music) My 2nd book might appeal to a lot of ppl, but my 1st likely has a smaller audience. I’m all in for rewriting things as needed. Is there something other than tone that you feel should be reworded?
I shall. This one thread alone had been immensely helpful. About the over-written thing: I’ll address that in a moment
Nice to see ppl here have a sense of humor
Cathleen has an interesting story. But to save space in this, I’ll just quote a few parts
Am I willing? Let me say this: the book I’m working on now was written around 2006. It was my first novel. I got looking through it a few years ago and ugh… Amateurism was there. In 2006, it was basically: I wrote a great book, one everyone would love. I need no help, and this thing is like, GOLDEN! Flash-forward several years and a 2nd book later, and I realized: I was dead wrong. The book sucked. I’ll be hard on myself: it really, really sucked. It was like the Gigli of novels. I needed help, but I refused to ask. I thought I understood how to build a story and, well… it’s best to say: good idea, terrible execution. I’ve spent the last few years rewriting it. Not revising--rewriting. Once this draft is done, I estimate about 70% of the book will be rewritten and less than 10% of the original book will remain.
That, I hope, shows my dedication. And I learned one of the greatest truths of writing: arrogance never pays off. In fact, it hurts. To answer your other question: I’ve addressed it at the front
I’m gonna skip a few sine their questions will be answered in my little summary.
Just to note: the book I have out now has no sex. I don’t care for writing of it. Sex is known to have happened a time or 2, but it’s always “tell, not show.” There are no narrations or whatnot about the act being done. My current book has 1 (it’s needed for the plot to work) but it’s not graphic. I wouldn’t do that.
-----------
I have an overload of information. Thanks to each and every one of you. Now I see a few truths, and these need to be rectified. My original plan was to finish this 2nd book by the 22nd or so, revise it through the rest of the year, and work on another draft while writing my 3rd book (a memoir). But I see now that I’m not really as done as I thought I was. “When You Leave This Way” requires at least one more draft. I’ll finish this 2nd book as planned, but then I’ll need to look back into “Leave.” The first passage of chapter 2 WILL BE ERASED. It’s just holding things down. I do wonder, though, how much tightening would be needed. Test readers (the few I’ve had) plus a few strangers said they loved it as-is. But I can’t go by that. Even if I did, the only ones that hold weight are the strangers (they have the ability of indifference). Two strangers just won’t cut it.
I want to post this real quick, to solidify many comments here in this thread: Kevin Smith handed the script for Clerks 2 to a few producers. They said, “Eh, this is uh… sorry, but you really should revise it.” Smith did, cutting a few pages worth out. He resubmitted it and: “Wow, this is a friggin’ awesome script!” Smith later said (I’m paraphrasing), “I didn’t have the heart to tell them, ‘It’s the same f***ing script, just a few pages smaller!’ But sometimes, that’s all ya really gotta do.’”
For my current book, I need to focus on finishing it. That’s #1. After that’s done, I’ll need to remove EVEYTHING I’m comfortable with, which should easily knock it from 170k words to 120k or less. If it’s still pretty big, I’ll just have to take my chances. I’ve got a few other things I’d like to ask about it; I’ll save those for another thread, later on.
For book #1: I’m thinking of just going out & trying to get that elusive trade deal. I suppose I won’t know until I try. I should make a thread for this but for now, I’ll just post it here: You are all strangers to me, thus you have the gift of indifference I need. I’m in need of a few testers for my entire manuscript/1st book. I can’t post anything public (I’m still under 50 posts), so nothing can go into the SYW area just yet. I need up to 10, and I will personally purchase the eBooks to those who are willing to read it. You needn’t love it. The book might not be your cup o’ tea. But I need an idea of what readers think is too long/wordy. That chapter 2 passage is, I know. But what else? I need to know these things in order to tighten. It’d also give me ideas for editing this 2nd book. Visit the url in my sig if you want to know what the book is about. Post below or shoot me a PM if you’re interested.
All of this said: once again, thanks to you all. For the first time in a loooooooooong time, I feel like I’m on the right track.