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Now see, I always thought it was a special rock or something geological that you were fond of.
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I want to add both a letter and an excerpt from a meta-book (imaginary) to my current story. However, as a reader I tend to skip letters and excerpts as inevitable information dumps (except in parodies, novel as collection of letters, etc). 'Yes, but mine won't be a boring and unnecesary info dump! It will be an entertaining and vital ... transmission of information,' sounds a little silly even to myself.
How do you balance "do whatever works, edit out whatever doesn't" with "You Are Not Different"?
I'm not planning on writing the Next Great second person present tense chose-your-own-adventure, but will sticking to close to tried and tested teach me little and make my writing bland?
How do you balance "do whatever works, edit out whatever doesn't" with "You Are Not Different"?
I'm not planning on writing the Next Great second person present tense chose-your-own-adventure, but will sticking to close to tried and tested teach me little and make my writing bland?
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If you cut out the parts that the readers are going to skip anyway, you lose nothing.
You are not different: you have to do whatever works.
You are not different: you have to do whatever works.
Assignment Three DONE
Retype the first chapter of your favorite novel.
There were over 60 words ending in –ly
Bookisms
“Sorry,” he grunted
“Funny stuff on the news,” Mr. Dursley mumbled.
“So?” snapped Mrs. Dursley.
He chuckled and muttered, “I should have known.”
“It’s – it’s true?” faltered Professor McGonagall.
“You don’t mean – you can’t mean the people who live here?” cried Professor McGonagall
“A letter?” repeated Professor McGonagall faintly
“Is that where --?” whispered Professor McGonagall.
“Shhh!” hissed Professor McGonagall,
“S-s-sorry,” sobbed Hagrid,
“…or we’ll be found,” Professor McGonagall whispered
“Good luck, Harry,” he murmured.
There were 2 instances of quite.
Variations of “to be” (had, was, were, etc.) – too many to count
Italics were used as emphasis 24 times.
THING LEARNED – Rules can be broken if the story works. This chapter (and story and the 5 after it) works. I wanted to keep reading.
Retype the first chapter of your favorite novel.
There were over 60 words ending in –ly
Bookisms
“Sorry,” he grunted
“Funny stuff on the news,” Mr. Dursley mumbled.
“So?” snapped Mrs. Dursley.
He chuckled and muttered, “I should have known.”
“It’s – it’s true?” faltered Professor McGonagall.
“You don’t mean – you can’t mean the people who live here?” cried Professor McGonagall
“A letter?” repeated Professor McGonagall faintly
“Is that where --?” whispered Professor McGonagall.
“Shhh!” hissed Professor McGonagall,
“S-s-sorry,” sobbed Hagrid,
“…or we’ll be found,” Professor McGonagall whispered
“Good luck, Harry,” he murmured.
There were 2 instances of quite.
Variations of “to be” (had, was, were, etc.) – too many to count
Italics were used as emphasis 24 times.
THING LEARNED – Rules can be broken if the story works. This chapter (and story and the 5 after it) works. I wanted to keep reading.
Allynegirl, I've been shocked of late how many published books are full of words ending in -ly, and all the other stuff you mentioned. It's heartening: if that stuff can get published, I feel like I've got a chance.
You're right, if the story works that's probably at least half the battle.
My favorite books are usually not best sellers, and those are the chapters I've been retyping. (There are exceptions: The Name of the Rose is next on my list.) This is a great exercise.
Been listening to audio books lately. I spend so much time in the car it's the only way to keep up with all the reading I want to do. I don't know if it's the best way to evaluate a novel, but it's one way. It compares to reading it out loud, only someone's reading it out loud *to* me. Hearing the rhythms, or lack thereof, is a revelation.
You're right, if the story works that's probably at least half the battle.
My favorite books are usually not best sellers, and those are the chapters I've been retyping. (There are exceptions: The Name of the Rose is next on my list.) This is a great exercise.
Been listening to audio books lately. I spend so much time in the car it's the only way to keep up with all the reading I want to do. I don't know if it's the best way to evaluate a novel, but it's one way. It compares to reading it out loud, only someone's reading it out loud *to* me. Hearing the rhythms, or lack thereof, is a revelation.
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paritoshuttam
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"Whispered" is relatively acceptable. How else would you show a character talking to someone else in a softer tone than normal? Of course too much of shhh-ing, hss-ing, and whispering will get on my nerves. 
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The one I'm having most trouble is 'mumble'. Often, mumble is everything but comprehensible, so how can a character mumble a comprehensive piece of dialogue? Unless, of course, I'm mistaken.
Chuckle is another one that really bugs me. Of course, I sometimes talk while I chuckle. But again, it is not really comprehensible because I'm doing to things at the same time.
The others don't bug me as much, because they're actually possible.
Chuckle is another one that really bugs me. Of course, I sometimes talk while I chuckle. But again, it is not really comprehensible because I'm doing to things at the same time.
The others don't bug me as much, because they're actually possible.
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Allynegirl said:
The actual lesson is that those rules are not all that important. Readers want a good story. Whether dialog is grumbled or sobbed is very low on the list of Stuff That Matters.
It's the story that matters. The rest is very pleasant window dressing.
paritoshuttam said:"Whispered" is relatively acceptable. How else would you show a character talking to someone else in a softer tone than normal? Of course too much of shhh-ing, hss-ing, and whispering will get on my nerves.
I was commenting on all of the dialogue tags. Ick.
He whispered.
How 'bout.
Bob leaned in close to Jenny's ear as so the others around the camp fire couldn't hear what he was saying. "I love you."
I would say this line denotes a quiet voice.
Or, not as good IMO.
"I love you," Bob whispered in Jenny's ear.
I try to avoid as many dialogue tags as possible.
Or,
Bob said in his most quiet voice. "I love you Jenny." Then, he looked at the others seated around the campfire to see if they had heard him. Jenny's eyes were wide open, and she had a smile on her face.
H/S/ said is still the best way to tag in my opinion. A little info prior to the dialogue can identify the tone used and can be worded in a way to avoid the dreaded tags.
By showing an emotion you can avoid most tags.
Betty's face turned red and she clenched her fist so tight her knuckles turned white. Billy backed away a few steps. "Billy Allen Taylor, come here."
What emotion is Betty dispalying without a tag?
"Billy Allen Taylor,come here," Betty said with anger in her voice.
Or worse, Betty said angrily,yelled, snapped, spat like venom, grumbled, hissed.
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Two more assignments done:
Assignment Two
Go to a bookstore, watch readers selecting which books they want to buy.
Interesting differences in how people select their reading material. I only watched the people interested in fiction and there weren’t very many in those aisles at that tiem. One was looking for a particular author or title, and pulled the book, didn’t read the back or anything. Others I saw first looked at the cover, then read the back, then flip through the pages. Don’t know what they were looking for as they flipped. I smiled as I thought maybe they were looking for Page 147, but they didn’t stop to read any – just flipped.
Assignment Eight
Watch Minority Report and L.A. Confidential.
Minority Report: Whoa! Just when you thought you knew the ending, BAM, have another, then another.
L.A. Confidential: When this first came out, the advertising focused on the hookers that looked like moviestars. If they would have played up the twists, I probably would have wanted to watch it. Pretty cool movie, though after watching Minority Report, I figured out the twists. It also reminded me to some extent of Tango & Cash and Lethal Weapon with the two cops as opposite sides of a coin.
Assignment Two
Go to a bookstore, watch readers selecting which books they want to buy.
Interesting differences in how people select their reading material. I only watched the people interested in fiction and there weren’t very many in those aisles at that tiem. One was looking for a particular author or title, and pulled the book, didn’t read the back or anything. Others I saw first looked at the cover, then read the back, then flip through the pages. Don’t know what they were looking for as they flipped. I smiled as I thought maybe they were looking for Page 147, but they didn’t stop to read any – just flipped.
Assignment Eight
Watch Minority Report and L.A. Confidential.
Minority Report: Whoa! Just when you thought you knew the ending, BAM, have another, then another.
L.A. Confidential: When this first came out, the advertising focused on the hookers that looked like moviestars. If they would have played up the twists, I probably would have wanted to watch it. Pretty cool movie, though after watching Minority Report, I figured out the twists. It also reminded me to some extent of Tango & Cash and Lethal Weapon with the two cops as opposite sides of a coin.
Ken Schneider said:
Good examples, Ken. I hit a problem when I have an extended, whispered conversation. Too much dancing around it, i.e., "he put his lips to her ear" or "she looked over her shoulder to make sure no one was listening" is a lot less economical than "he said," or "she said," but then I wonder if my reader is aware that we're still whispering a page later, and if I should reiterate.
Or just cut.
Anyway, this is a fascinating conversation.
When I read, I notice the complete lack of dialogue tags almost as much as I notice too many. But I'm no judge of what's best anymore, because these days I can't even read a photo caption without being a critic. Someday I'll be able to just relax and read again. Right now I'm too much in learning mode.
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James D. Macdonald said:
Ha! I should have known. Being an actor ruined movies and theater for me for years, but I've finally learned to enjoy them again. I'm hoping I'll be able to love novels again someday, too. Right now, about the only thing I can get lost in is a good history book, and that's not a complaint.
Assignment Four
Read The Sun, The Moon, and The Stars and Misery.
Misery (Stephen King 1987) is finished. I learned lots about writing, like plot, horror, climaxes, etc. King is in his element. No unnecessary gore, even though what he did describe made me anxious and turned my tummy a bit.
Chapter size was hilarious and all over the place. Some were pages long, others were only a paragraph.
Minor irritation was the story Paul was writing. Found it very difficult to stay in the story trying to read the manuscript with handwritten n’s, t’s and e’s. Although I couldn't care less about Misery herself, the examples of the manuscript and subsequent re-write of the first
chapter was interesting. I did smile when I saw underlining of words and used my newfound knowledge that it meant italics.
King confused me several times mentioning results of actions that had not been written about. Made me think I had missed something. He would then go back and tell about it a few paragraphs or chapters later. Irritating, but, fortunately, I got over it.
I found Misery to be a satisfying read, even though horror has not been my genre to read since I was in my teens (King, Straub, Koontz, and Saul were my favorites then).
Muse was the hole in the paper?
The Sun, The Moon and The Stars (Steven Brust 1987) is also finished. First of all, hat’s off to Uncle Jim for making this a reading assignment. I would have never read this book in a million years. Just goes to show – you can’t judge a book by its cover. You also cannot judge a book by its synopsis, dust jacket or introduction.
1) The front of the book says it is “a series of fantasy novels retelling classic tales" – the only fantasy tale I noted was related in sub-section 5 of each chapter about the Gypsies. At first, that was the only thing that kept me reading. By the end, I was far more interested in the story of the painter and what he was learning.
2) the sub-section headings confused me until I realized they were names of works of art.
3) Uncle Jim is right, art is art. The lessons learned by the painter apply equally to the writer, the photographer, the singer, and any other artist.
A few favorite quotes:
Page 144: “There are some paintings I’ve seen where I’ve said, ‘Well, it isn’t very good, but I like it. … There are lots and lots of paintings that make me go, ‘Well, it’s very good, but I don’t like it.’” Inspiration if I ever heard it.
Page 178: “Any art causes more pain than pleasure for the artist.” I have only begun to see the tip of the iceberg on the truth of this statement.
Read The Sun, The Moon, and The Stars and Misery.
Misery (Stephen King 1987) is finished. I learned lots about writing, like plot, horror, climaxes, etc. King is in his element. No unnecessary gore, even though what he did describe made me anxious and turned my tummy a bit.
Chapter size was hilarious and all over the place. Some were pages long, others were only a paragraph.
Minor irritation was the story Paul was writing. Found it very difficult to stay in the story trying to read the manuscript with handwritten n’s, t’s and e’s. Although I couldn't care less about Misery herself, the examples of the manuscript and subsequent re-write of the first
chapter was interesting. I did smile when I saw underlining of words and used my newfound knowledge that it meant italics.
King confused me several times mentioning results of actions that had not been written about. Made me think I had missed something. He would then go back and tell about it a few paragraphs or chapters later. Irritating, but, fortunately, I got over it.
I found Misery to be a satisfying read, even though horror has not been my genre to read since I was in my teens (King, Straub, Koontz, and Saul were my favorites then).
Muse was the hole in the paper?
The Sun, The Moon and The Stars (Steven Brust 1987) is also finished. First of all, hat’s off to Uncle Jim for making this a reading assignment. I would have never read this book in a million years. Just goes to show – you can’t judge a book by its cover. You also cannot judge a book by its synopsis, dust jacket or introduction.
1) The front of the book says it is “a series of fantasy novels retelling classic tales" – the only fantasy tale I noted was related in sub-section 5 of each chapter about the Gypsies. At first, that was the only thing that kept me reading. By the end, I was far more interested in the story of the painter and what he was learning.
2) the sub-section headings confused me until I realized they were names of works of art.
3) Uncle Jim is right, art is art. The lessons learned by the painter apply equally to the writer, the photographer, the singer, and any other artist.
A few favorite quotes:
Page 144: “There are some paintings I’ve seen where I’ve said, ‘Well, it isn’t very good, but I like it. … There are lots and lots of paintings that make me go, ‘Well, it’s very good, but I don’t like it.’” Inspiration if I ever heard it.
Page 178: “Any art causes more pain than pleasure for the artist.” I have only begun to see the tip of the iceberg on the truth of this statement.
Please say I haven't killed this thread. I am so cursed.
Assignment Nine
Read Red Harvest. Dashiell Hammett
Watch Yojimbo, Last Man Standing, A Fistful of Dollars, and Miller's Crossing.
Miller’s Crossing: Not my type of movie, but here goes. Found the speech hard to understand (accents, mumbling, etc.) which makes this type of movie hard to follow. If you can’t hear what they are saying then you can’t follow the crosses, double-crosses and triple-crosses. (Learned my lesson and used subtitles with the other movies.) In the end, I didn’t understand what the whole thing was about. He didn’t get the girl, he refused the job, a lot of people got killed and for what? The only thing he did get was $1,000 and paid off his gambling debt. My mind balks at the thought of all those people dying just for him to pay off his debt, even though I liked none of these characters enough to care that they died.
A Fistful of Dollars: I had seen this movie before, and Miller’s Crossing brought Dollars to my mind. After watching all these movies, I determined I liked A Fistful of Dollars the best. The bad guys were bad, Clint’s character was interesting, there wasn’t too much dialogue and the movie moved along at a good clip. Also, and what made it different from Miller’s Crossing, Clint’s character saved the girl and her family and came back to save the bartender.
Last Man Standing: Okay, out of the four movies this was a total bore. Yawn. Same premise as all the others. Too much dialogue. I felt no one should have left that town alive, except maybe the undertaker.
Yojimbo: Cool. A Japanese version of A Fistful of Dollars. Actually, I guess A Fistful of Dollars was the remake of Yojimbo which was Red Harvest made into a movie. I actually like Dollars better. In Yojimbo, the rivals were comical cowards. I got tired of seeing a gun being shot from a hand within a kimono. Let’s talk about realistically being able to shoot and hit anything with the gun basically plastered to your chest.
Assignment Nine
Read Red Harvest. Dashiell Hammett
Watch Yojimbo, Last Man Standing, A Fistful of Dollars, and Miller's Crossing.
Miller’s Crossing: Not my type of movie, but here goes. Found the speech hard to understand (accents, mumbling, etc.) which makes this type of movie hard to follow. If you can’t hear what they are saying then you can’t follow the crosses, double-crosses and triple-crosses. (Learned my lesson and used subtitles with the other movies.) In the end, I didn’t understand what the whole thing was about. He didn’t get the girl, he refused the job, a lot of people got killed and for what? The only thing he did get was $1,000 and paid off his gambling debt. My mind balks at the thought of all those people dying just for him to pay off his debt, even though I liked none of these characters enough to care that they died.
A Fistful of Dollars: I had seen this movie before, and Miller’s Crossing brought Dollars to my mind. After watching all these movies, I determined I liked A Fistful of Dollars the best. The bad guys were bad, Clint’s character was interesting, there wasn’t too much dialogue and the movie moved along at a good clip. Also, and what made it different from Miller’s Crossing, Clint’s character saved the girl and her family and came back to save the bartender.
Last Man Standing: Okay, out of the four movies this was a total bore. Yawn. Same premise as all the others. Too much dialogue. I felt no one should have left that town alive, except maybe the undertaker.
Yojimbo: Cool. A Japanese version of A Fistful of Dollars. Actually, I guess A Fistful of Dollars was the remake of Yojimbo which was Red Harvest made into a movie. I actually like Dollars better. In Yojimbo, the rivals were comical cowards. I got tired of seeing a gun being shot from a hand within a kimono. Let’s talk about realistically being able to shoot and hit anything with the gun basically plastered to your chest.
Heh. No, the rest of us are waiting for you to do the homework so we can crib off your answers.Allynegirl said:Please say I haven't killed this thread. I am so cursed.
Andrew Jameson said:Heh. No, the rest of us are waiting for you to do the homework so we can crib off your answers.
Okay, I admit I never actually did all the homework. I remember saying to myself, "Oh yeah, I saw Fistful of Dollars and Millers Crossing, I get what he means...." but not taking the trouble you've been taking, Allynegirl, because I was deep in my WIP and lurking more than participating. Bravo to you, and yeah, I'm cribbing off your answers like Andrew said.
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