The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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AnneMarble

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Christine N. said:
You go Jean Marie! And I suppose that the person who read Diana's book didn't know that it was nominated for a Spectrum award.
Or that it is coming out again, revised, phoenix-like. (Better than coming out like a Tuscon...)

By the way, when I saw Carl's post, I couldn't help thinking, "Buehler... Buehler... Buehler..."

Christine N. said:
See, for those of us tuning in late, the PA contract has changed since Diana and others signed. It used to convey a sense that their books WERE going to be STOCKED in B&N, not just available for special order. I don't think it reads that way now.
They changed (had to change) their web site as well. And you have to ask yourself ... Why did they change their original contract, their web site, their rolls of toilet paper? (I put the last one in to make sure you were paying attetion.) Could it be because they couldn't keep up their end of it? Of course, they would have known as much from the start, so why did they originally mention those things?
 

keltora

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DreamWeaver said:
And I have right here, in my hand as we speak, an ARC of Ann Crispin's latest book, which lists the publisher as *Eos, an imprint of HarperCollins Publishers, Inc.*.

OT: I won it! I won the *Storms of Destiny* ARC name-that-inspiration contest! My encyclopedic knowledge of classic rock finally paid off!!!
smilehooray.gif

Congratulations!!!!!
 

lindylou45

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Ed Williams: Don't we have something more productive to discuss?

I do! As you recall, Mr. Williams, you owe me some smoochies. I'm going to go watch American Idol and I'm hoping when I get back I'll have them. It's terrible the way you make a woman beg!

:kiss:
 

T42

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bluwinteryfox said:
I've posted more times in one day than I ever have since I joined AW. I like this thread, but now it's becoming silly. I'm seriously thinking of giving anyone who replies to her a negative rep point. I'm not sure how to do it, but I'll figure it out.

Let's listen to the Mightly Pickler and Stop replying to her. PLEASE.
I don't think this approach is working. Maybe we could start a new post about PA. I'm a bit tired of hearing the same answer and the same question a thousand times. Maybe I'm too anal for all of this. I may have to resort to the bonking thread again:)
 

Sarashay

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gena140 said:
But why is it that so many fortune tellers can tell me my future.

I'm confused by all this need to convince me I was so wrong.

We can tell you your future because we've seen the past. We've watched PA writers break their backs and get nowhere and there haven't really been any major improvements in PA's business model beyond a few points here and there where they try to make their disadvantages look like The Wave Of The Future. You're citing people like MC Hammer (who was not published by PA) as examples for how you're going to succeed; we're citing examples like Diana Hignutt (who actually was published by PA) for how you're going to fail.

I know you're determined to beat the odds, and I can respect that, but you are trying to fly with a ten-ton weight chained to your ankle. You might get airborne, but you won't get far.

Then again, you might do well enough for the Stooges to freak out and cancel your contract, because you're getting too expensive for them to maintain you. So who knows? Anything could happen.

And if you do fall, we won't 'have the last laugh'. We won't kick you when you're down. Just come here and we'll pick you up, dust you off, make you some tea and brownies and help you get your writing career back on track.
 

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victoriastrauss said:
Gena, the flip comment about firing your lawyer was mine. I probably shouldn't have made it, but I was responding in a tone similar to the one you were using in your early posts (by the way, I appreciate the effort you're making to take it down a notch.)

However, I have a hunch your lawyer isn't knowledgeable about publishing, or s/he wouldn't have included the clause you cited (even if a publisher were willing to make an offer on a book already under contract, which is highly unlikely, they wouldn't pay a kill fee. Really and truly, that's just not going to happen). Also, an experienced publishing lawyer would have discouraged you from signing the PA contract, which is not a standard publishing contract. I mean no disrespect to your lawyer, who may be excellent in his/her field, but publishing is an extremely specialized business, and some very specific knowledge is needed in order to properly evaluate a publishing contract. A regular attorney is not likely to have that.

One thing you'll find, if you are able to create a demand for your book via self-promotion, is that PA won't be able to meet that demand. It simply doesn't have the capacity to provide books in large quantities in a timely manner (and by large quantities I don't mean thousands or even hundreds--I mean anything over a couple of dozen). The public's interest has the durability of sliced bread: if your book isn't right there, immediately available, at the exact moment when interest is kindled, the interest is going to move on to something else.

It's true that self-publishing carries a certain stigma (though that stigma quickly vanishes if you're able to sell 5,000 or more copies within a few months of your book's release), but it also offers significant advantages over PA-style publishing, and one of these is the ability to respond to sales demand if you're savvy enough to create it.

- Victoria

I understand your concerns, and I am aware of those and again, I accepted those when I signed on.

I've already discussed that issue with the agent I chose not to go with, but who is still interested in signing me.

If she can say "This author has requests for 400 books in one week but PA was unable to meet that request. She needs a reputable publisher who can meet those sales."

She can market me on the requests alone as being phenomenal.

So I'm prepared for that as well.

I don't plan on ordering a 1000 books to be sent to one place. I know PA can't meet that.

But if I sell 1000 books in 1000 bookstores across the country and each of those has a record of a request for my book...the requests can get me an interview with a reputable agent.
 

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gena140 said:
I don't know you or who you are going to have review it. Sorry if I don't trust you...but I don't know you.

And why would I do any of that? A PA author from those boards told me about this board. You and your existence is not a secret. lol

I came only to post my experiences which are different. I am an honest person. The moment PA does anything contrary to what they've agreed I will post that too.

Why am I played as stupid, crazy, having a bad lawyer, a ugly cover, passable writing, and being put up this by PA?

Why can't I just be a person with a different perspective and IF PA is gonna screw me with no grease...won't you get the last laugh on me???

You claimed you read this and knew about PA's background. Now you don't know me and yet in your next paragraph you claim you know of me and my site? You can't even keep your story straight.

Likewise, I don't know you well enough to know whether you're honest. Regardless, I haven't questioned that. However, you can bet that enough individuals in the publishing industry know of me and my integrity.

You claim that you obtained certain changes in your contract, yet you're unwilling to show any of that. Why? Someone else reading it won't change what it states. Or is it that your claims are exaggerated?

So far, your experiences with PA are not different. We've seen others before make the same claims. As to whether you've been put up to this by PA, I could care less. However, it seems like you could have chosen a better topic to post within if that wasn't your intention. By posting in this topic, you've deliberately made yourself into a target.

As to the last laugh, we don't want PA to be laughing about how they cheated you just like all the others.
 

keltora

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gena140 said:
They don't have to buy it, but my point is it can be done.

My goal isn't for them to buy it anyway. I intend to own my own plates in 7 years.

I was only pointing out that contracts are negotiable and nobody has to sign a contract that doesn't say what they want/need it to say.

My lawyer is very reputable and I have no intention of firing her.

FYI. There are no plates. PA uses digital printing.

Digital printing has no plates.

There's a PA lie for you.
 

reph

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gena140 said:
They don't have to buy it, but my point is it can be done.

My goal isn't for them to buy it anyway. I intend to own my own plates in 7 years.
Gena, Gena, Gena. The only plates you'll own in seven years are the ones you put on the dinner table. A print-on-demand book doesn't have plates. That part of the contract refers to nothing that exists in the physical world. Didn't you wonder about it? Didn't your lawyer?

For further information on this subject, you might want to take a look at the "49 copies only" thread on this forum.
 

Jaws

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gena140 said:
I've already answered that she is a contract lawyer who specializes in contracts.
Saying this as gently as I can: Somewhere in excess of 40% of all attorneys can say that they work with "contracts," in one way or another. It's not a specialty, or even an area of concentration. There's a reason that "contracts" is a first-year course in law school: It's an important, but general, subject.

A commercial real-estate lease is a contract. So is a publishing contract. My practice involves the latter; I don't handle the former, because it's beyond my area of expertise, and I get referrals from commercial real-estate lawyers and labor lawyers and corporate counsel on behalf of their clients who have publishing questions. We all deal with contracts. And none of us deal with insurance contracts, except as those insurance contracts directly impact our own practices.

The wrong lawyer can nonetheless be a very, very good one. And sometimes a lawyer who really isn't anything special, and wouldl never get even a CV rating if he/she were to ask for it, has exactly the expertise and experience for a particular matter. Physicians are very much the same way: I don't take my broken bones to a psychiatrist, nor my wounded psyche to an orthopedist.
 

keltora

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bluwinteryfox said:
Come on people, stop it. Just ignore this person. :Ssh: Let's get back to the task at hand. How many of you have sent emails to that Dave fellow. I have. I'm waiting for his reply to my email.

I got a reply from him that was a doozy!

The man is not happy. *g*

He wanted to know how such a "miserable person" as meself could be working in public service...

LOL
 

gena140

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DaveKuzminski said:
You claimed you read this and knew about PA's background. Now you don't know me and yet in your next paragraph you claim you know of me and my site? You can't even keep your story straight.

Likewise, I don't know you well enough to know whether you're honest. Regardless, I haven't questioned that. However, you can bet that enough individuals in the publishing industry know of me and my integrity.

You claim that you obtained certain changes in your contract, yet you're unwilling to show any of that. Why? Someone else reading it won't change what it states. Or is it that your claims are exaggerated?

So far, your experiences with PA are not different. We've seen others before make the same claims. As to whether you've been put up to this by PA, I could care less. However, it seems like you could have chosen a better topic to post within if that wasn't your intention. By posting in this topic, you've deliberately made yourself into a target.

As to the last laugh, we don't want PA to be laughing about how they cheated you just like all the others.

I didn't say I don't know who you are... I said "I don't know you." I don't recall mentioned YOUR SITE unless PA's board is your which is what I mentioned.

For the record I don't know George Bush either...but I know he's the president.

What exagerated claims did I make?

Now I'm a liar too because I don't want someone I just encountered on a message board (regardless of their repuation) to have my contract.

First of all you came at me the same way I came at you. So now we are buddies and I'm going to give you my contract to peruse.

No. I was born at night but it wasn't last night. My own mother hasn't seen my contract and I know her.

So call me a liar...it's no worse than a troll and no one here has to believe a word I say. I am not trying to convince anyone to change thier mind about PA

I am only posting MY EXPERIENCE.

I posted an opposing view because I wrongly assumed that it was allowed since this is a public board.

I'm not sure why that made me a target as I didn't dispute anyone's claims or denounce them as untrue.

Can I start a PRO- Publish America thread and post in it all alone or is that against the rules too?

:confused:
 

triceretops

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I keep hearing about five bucks over list for most PA books, but I'm willing to bet that it's more. If somebody were to take a control group of say, 25 PA books, including the low-end page count examples like the 59-page book (as a low end), list some medium sized (150-250), then include some higher page-count books, and taking the prices (per book) arrive at the average cost of the price per page? Do the same thing with a small/medium house (trade paperback) like Arcadia or Heydey and produce those figures. Then draw a comparison for the price per page between the two pub houses? Has this been done to give us the full spectrum?

Don't know, I'm willing to bet that PA's larger profit margin comes from the very small page count books, because they certainly have a minimum standard price for their smallest editions, wot? BTW, what is that bottom-line cost for PA books? I've seen $9.95, I believe.

Has anyone done the math on this, using this formula? Using a larger control group, with many publishers, would be a more accurate indicator, I'm sure. But it would certainly give us a more detailed overview of just how much more expensive PA books are than all the others. The end calculations could very well tell us if trade publishers are charging 2 cents per page v.s. 3 cents for PA titles. That would tell me a 33% aboveboard cost (on the average).

Any math whiz kids out there? I just thought that this would give us more solid stats, facts and figures to add to our arsenal. A large survey by an expert would be a real eye-opener.

Just some alternative thoughts here.

Triceratops
 

M. Story

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book_maven said:
Dee, thank you for posting that columnist's piece as well as the contact information for the editors. Here is what I sent:

Dear Editor, .........You have done your readers an enormous disfavor not only by allowing an advertisement to run as editorial space but by giving credence to a scamming operation that depends on psychological abuse, cheating, lying and censorship tactics to keep its "happy" authors in line.

Drown will find this out soon enough. He deserves what's coming. But to smear your own publication by allowing a "columnist" to join up in roping in more victims is despicable.
----------------------
Good job, Book Maven, on your letter to the editor!
emoteClap.gif


I'm going to write Mr. Drown a letter, but I think he still is delusional about PA, and may read it with a closed mind. When I was first published, I probably would have done the same. Give him time. If he has even the intelligence of a gnat, he will have to one day admit that PA has screwed many, many authors in ways too numerous to mention in just one post.


Marlene
 

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Jaws said:
Saying this as gently as I can: Somewhere in excess of 40% of all attorneys can say that they work with "contracts," in one way or another. It's not a specialty, or even an area of concentration. There's a reason that "contracts" is a first-year course in law school: It's an important, but general, subject.

A commercial real-estate lease is a contract. So is a publishing contract. My practice involves the latter; I don't handle the former, because it's beyond my area of expertise, and I get referrals from commercial real-estate lawyers and labor lawyers and corporate counsel on behalf of their clients who have publishing questions. We all deal with contracts. And none of us deal with insurance contracts, except as those insurance contracts directly impact our own practices.

The wrong lawyer can nonetheless be a very, very good one. And sometimes a lawyer who really isn't anything special, and wouldl never get even a CV rating if he/she were to ask for it, has exactly the expertise and experience for a particular matter. Physicians are very much the same way: I don't take my broken bones to a psychiatrist, nor my wounded psyche to an orthopedist.

I will ask my lawyer for her permission to post her name and law firms name on this site.

Then you can tell her she's a liar and not a contract lawyer.
 

gena140

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Sheryl Nantus said:
because you could be a Good Writer. Heck, you could be a Great Writer - it's not impossible.

but it's like setting out to be a long-distance swimmer with an anchor tied to your feet - you're giving yourself a handicap that you don't need and it might pull you down beyond recovery.

there are people here with wisdom far beyond your years in the publishing industry - for you to shrug them all off is putting your writing further down in the hole and ignoring the incoming tide.

you could be a great writer - but no one will ever know, thanks to your going with PublishAmerica.

I didn't shrug anyone off. I stated that thier concerns were not my concerns and that I didn't go into my contract blindly.

Plenty will know what a great writer I am, even the almighty PA can't stop that from happening.

Sorry you see life so dismal...but I'm ever the optimist.
 

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gena140 said:
I've already answered that she is a contract lawyer who specializes in contracts.

There's no such thing; all lawyers deal with contracts, and they become experts in particular fields, with particular kinds of contracts--like real estate, intellectual property, tax, etc.

You really really need an attorney who is deeply familiar with publishing contracts--they are not standard contracts. The fact that an attorney had no problem with you signing the PA contract is, well, worrisome. That's pretty clueless--for one thing, the contract contradicts itself, it's obscenely restrictive compared to a standard contract from a genuine publisher, and there are some truly outrageous idiocies that should set of warning sirens for an attorney who knows anything about publishing.
 

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James D. Macdonald said:
They may be recycling something from two years ago. Back then they were going to present a list of their top sellers from a month to Ms. Winfrey (books you buy yourself count!).


This was the first thing I thought of as well. Just another scheme they'll use to milk more money from their authors.

J
 

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keltora said:
I got a reply from him that was a doozy!

The man is not happy. *g*

He wanted to know how such a "miserable person" as meself could be working in public service...

LOL
Forgive me, but :roll:
 

gena140

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Medievalist said:
There's no such thing; all lawyers deal with contracts, and they become experts in particular fields, with particular kinds of contracts--like real estate, intellectual property, tax, etc.

You really really need an attorney who is deeply familiar with publishing contracts--they are not standard contracts. The fact that an attorney had no problem with you signing the PA contract is, well, worrisome. That's pretty clueless--for one thing, the contract contradicts itself, it's obscenely restrictive compared to a standard contract from a genuine publisher, and there are some truly outrageous idiocies that should set of warning sirens for an attorney who knows anything about publishing.

I will ask for her permission to post her name and her firm's name on this site and you may tell her that she's not a contract lawyer.
 

victoriastrauss

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Folks, I don't want to ban Gena, especially since I can see she's trying to change the tone of her responses. The situation has reversed a bit now, and she's being jumped on a bit more than I think she deserves at this point. I think we should all try to ramp it down. For instance, the plates issue has been done to death. If you're catching up with this thread, wait till you get to the end before firing off a post in response to Gena. Odds are your point has already been made.

While I think that Gena is mistaken in her assessment of what she can accomplish through PA (in my opinion, she would have done better to self-publish), she has a very valid point: there is a sizeable amount of publishing (much of it micro-press and self-publishing) aimed at the African American market that flies almost totally below the radar of the commercial publishing industry. To some extent the larger publishers are clueing into this--a number of new imprints aimed at black readers have been started up in the past couple of years. But a lot of this publishing is all but invisible to mainstream and white readers--and the audience for it is as voracious as the audience for Harlequin Superromance. It's a very interesting area of publishing and I think Gena brings an interesting perspective on it.

However, it's off-topic for this thread. Could we maybe establish a new topic--in Get With The Genre, perhaps--to discuss it? If so, I can move some of the posts that have already been made (about self-pubbed black authors, for instance) over there.

For further discussion of PA, I'd like the discourse to be civil. Maybe if all of us can agree to be less energetic about trying to puncture Gena's bubble (she doesn't agree with us, but I think she has gotten the point), and Gena can agree to be a less acerbic in her responses, we'll be able to make it work.

I'm going to keep an eye on things here for a little longer this evening, but I won't be able to get back again until tomorrow night. Please play nice.

- Victoria
 

T42

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bluewinterfox do you want me to show you how to use that thing?:Headbang: :Hammer:
:Hail:Please stop with the same o' same o'.
 

James D. Macdonald

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DreamWeaver said:
Okay, here's a question:

If one, or even ten, authors manage to actually make the PA model work for them, whether it be by having top lawyers watchdog for them, or niche-marketing to stores that prefer PA to self-publishing, then...

...is it still morally acceptable to fight to shut down PA on behalf of all the other victimized authors, who were too naive to catch contract ambiguities, believed half-truths, or simply fell for a really slick, practiced scam? Knowing that a successful fight will negatively impact the ten authors who have actually managed to tame the beast and do all right out of the bargain?

For myself, I'm not trying to shut down PublishAmerica. I'm trying to get them to clean up their act. They won't need non-disparagement clauses if their dealings are all honest and above-board. Do they need false and misleading language on their webpage? Do they need deceptive and harmful clauses in their contract? No, they don't. What stops them from being totally upfront about their business model?

Those ten won't be harmed by PA's new-found honesty. Other authors, who are trying to make decisions about their own paths, will be helped if they know exactly what PA's business model is, what they do and don't do, what they can and can't deliver.

Let me quote something else here:

Genesis 18:23-32
23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it?

25 Far be it from you to do such a thing-to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes,

28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"

"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."

29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"

He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."

30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"

He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"

He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."

32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"

He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
 
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T42

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Great point and illustration Uncle Jim but didn't he have to destroy it or am I thinking of something else?:)
 
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