Keeping it in the fantasy realm despite explicit sex scenes

Neverwhere

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So I've got a fantasy story on the boil at the moment. The plot, characters and themes all standalone. Sex is not the major driver of the story, although I have included several explicit sex scenes because they work to characterise certain individuals, explain the system of magic and it also gives the story a dark overtone which I find quite pleasing and useful. Removing these scene's would weaken what I've got going on.

But at the end of the day the idea of the novel isn't erotica and I want to keep it in the fantasy rather than erotica genre. I also don't have this kind of thing with enough frequency to make it an erotic novel. I've thought of toning it down and making those scene's less explicit. But the first of those scene's for example has one character entrap another during intercourse and the unfolding of the entrapment is closely linked with certain actions during sex.

Toning this one down will either make what happens a bit confusing or lose the tension in the scene. It also demonstrates certain [non-physical] abilities of one character in particular. So artistically I don't want to do a zoom out and make everything hinted at for the sake of making it a tamer read.

My villainess is characterised by her dominant sexual fetishes, which make the scenes with her in it more entertaining than say a torture scene would, or a scene in which she verbally threatens someone else. It's a bit of black humour on my part and I think it works well in the context. Her bitchiness comes out without her turning into an omnipotent, dark overlord, but still scary by her weirdness.

So how can I ensure it's more fantasy than fetish? Or do I even need to. I'm confused because I didn't plan this story this way, it was a way to break the writers block I had around the novel. Then I decided the tangent into erotica was an improvement and I want to keep it without thrusting the whole thing into that genre.

Sorry if this is the wrong part of the forum to ask. It's a really vast forum and I'm not always sure where something should go.
 

Marlys

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You can have erotic scenes in virtually any genre, except maybe kid's books (although...an adult version of Green Eggs and Ham..."Would you like it in my box?"). If the sex scenes are in service to the story, then it's still fantasy. If the story only exists to hang the sex scenes on, then it's probably erotica.
 

Neverwhere

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Thanks Marlys, so just leave it in and continue on then. Simple. I obviously haven't read any edgy stuff recently.
 

caracy

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If the elements are true to your story, they should stay. The publisher may ask you to tone them down before accepting the story for publication or not. Then you are left deciding whether you are willing to make the changes.
 

veinglory

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I am not sure what the problem is. A lot of sci fi and fantasy (not cross genre in any way) on my shelf and virtual shelf has sex in it. Some are recent best sellers. I think spec fic is one area where adding sex is a non-issue unless you somehow choose an inspy or YA line where it would obviously be inappropriate.
 

Thewitt

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Game of Thrones includes quite a bit of explicit sex in a fantasy. I don't see it as a problem at all.

In my own books I have quite a bit of innuendo and sexual tension and find that works for my characters, but if it should change in a future volume, that would be OK as well.
 

lbender

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Not just Gabaldon. Laurell K. Hamilton's books became, in some of them, more sex than plot - still fantasy.
 

greendragon

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I've got some explicit sex scenes in my historical fiction, as well. Sex doesn't define the genre, unless, as mentioned earlier, it's the major plotline.

Gabaldon is one of those writers where her books have been seen in fiction, fantasy, science fiction, and romance bookshelves. *shrugs* - not all of us fit in a box.
 

moonwatch178

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Basically, what everyone else has said. But I want to add that if you are concerned about your MS bordering the erotica genre, a simple fix might be reducing the number of sex scenes as opposed to adjusting the content of those scenes..
 

Coconut

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Isaac Asimov had a sex scene in the 80s. I think the only thing you need to consider is how graphic you make it. If the scene is too graphic, it'll make it more difficult to publish the story (if you're going that route)
 

Alli B.

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Game of Thrones includes quite a bit of explicit sex in a fantasy. I don't see it as a problem at all.

In my own books I have quite a bit of innuendo and sexual tension and find that works for my characters, but if it should change in a future volume, that would be OK as well.
George RR Marting actually has a pretty cool quote on the thought:

I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it's madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure. Axes entering skulls, well, not so much.
 

Roxxsmom

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Axes entering skulls, well, not so much.

Depends on whether you're the axer or axee. :) Seriously, though, I agree with him.

Another fantasy novel with a lot of sex: Kushiel's Dart by Jacqueline Carey. Then there's Joe Abercrombie, who has fairly graphic sex scenes, but he makes them awkward and icky. Lots of moist sucking sounds and premature ejaculation. You can tell everyone has bad breath and BO and is just awful in the sack. I guess it's in keeping with his schtick that nothing unfolds the way it's supposed to in traditional narrative arcs.

I think what's often missing from fantasy is vanilla, loving, mutually consensual sex. We may get a scene where some dude is in a brothel, or someone's being raped, or sex is portrayed as either a bit kinky (nothing wrong with kinky, but that's not everyone's cup of tea), or awkward, or it's just glossed over completely. Even books where there's a central romance, like some of Lackey's books, or Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner books, tend to fade to black when her couples get amorous (I think some of the books by these authors got a bit more detailed than others, and of course, Flewelling wrote an erotica collection with her characters, but that was outside of the main series).

Maybe it's because people think more or less "vanilla" sex between two people who love one another is something that only belongs in the romance genre, and women fantasy writers are already wary of being accused of writing thinly veiled romances.

Because male writers never have romance arcs in their novels, of course, or HEAs.

I don't care. If sex seems natural to my stories and characters, I'll show it. Probably not using the level of graphic-ness or language one sees in erotica, or even steamier romances, but I'm not slamming the door in the reader's face if something relevant to character development or story arc happens there. If a publisher loves my novel and thinks the way I've treated sex out of place and doesn't actually add anything, I'll listen to them, of course, but my guess is it might be case by case.
 
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kdaniel171

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I think if the sex scenes are well-written,not vulgar and either integral to the story there's no objection to explicit them.
I personally don't mind a bit of sex in the story. I think it adds a bit of spice.
 

kristin724

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I'm having this trouble with labeling my latest manuscript as I am finishing the final edits and doing my submission research now.

I just don't plum know what to call it.

It has explicit sex scenes, but they are too far between to be called erotica.

It is a medieval fantasy, but it is dark, a tragedy without an HEA so it is not a romance. However, I just can't call it a dark fantasy because sff readers will be upset at the romantic elements along the way.

I want to say an erotic medieval fantasy with a dark love story tragedy but that is way to many labels! :D

I've looked at agents who are accepting erotica lest one be put off by the sexual content, but at this point I feel like just calling it literary due to its epic length. Publishers looking for erotic fantasy or romance need the happy, not the darkness.

Honestly, it is times like this where I wish romance could just be divided into 'happy' or 'sad' and the reader can pick one. (Discussion for another time, I know) As a reader you can find what you want with so many virtual shelf sub genre classifications, but dang as a writer you could go lots of different ways.

I'm perplexed.
 

veinglory

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It sounds to me like a fantasy. Fantasy with romance is more common than without, these days. I read a lot of fantasy and nothing you describe sounds uncommon or problematic to me.
 
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Maryn

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You might also reconsider just how graphic the sex scenes need to be to serve the story. Is it enough that the reader knows these characters got together, had some sort of physical relationship, perhaps one that's taboo in their world, and spoke, perhaps exchanging information or revealing secrets? You can do that without being explicit, arranging limbs and clothing, escalating breathing and heart rates, and letting the reader imagine Tab A and Slot B.

Whether you enjoy the novels or don't, George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire novels (Game of Thrones, etc.) do this well.

Maryn, hoping to help
 

amergina

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It sounds to me like a fantasy. Fantasy with romance is more common than without, these days. I read a lot of fantasy and nothing you describe sounds uncommon or problematic to me.

Agreed.

Also, what do you mean by explicit sex scenes? Is it that they're not fade-to-black, or are they fairly voyeuristic? Sex and dark romance isn't that uncommon in fantasy.
 

kristin724

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They are explicit as in detailed and not vanilla. The point is that the love triangle has positive and negative effects for the fantastic world at large. So I can't figure if that means the romantic element should be placed first or the fantasy.

To me, it seems half and half, when you don't have magical moments, you have romance times and vice versa. I just think some publishers would want focus on one or the other. I've already been told by my sff and romance writer friends that I've put myself in a tough spot I know. Nothing left to do I guess but research my list for both schools and tailor the query. I have a few conference pitches lined up too.

Ironically, I find it easier to discuss in talking than I do writing it down. You feel like you have to shoehorn every detail for each label. :p


Neverwhere's dilemma seems easier to me though. It is a fantasy and the one character seems to be the one with fetish.