Shady's Edgy YA (or sex, swearing, drinking, drugs, and violence in YA)

Zoombie

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I've found that people are, in general, brighter than they seem at first impression. I know this guy who was bright and picked up on things fast, but he dressed like a "gangsta", talked like a "gangsta", and got piss poor grades like a "gangsta".

It wasn't that he was dumb. He just didn't apply himself. He was also a real nice guy, despite the fact that I'm a slightly overweight, gawky teenager with glasses who wears an overly large hat, and he was a very tall, very muscular Mexican gangster with lots of "bling"

So just write smart, because people are smart...not all of them...but more than you'd think.
 

Danger Jane

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Exactly. People don't like being talked down to. At all.
 

javili

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I am sorry to see that my "little else" remark about kids being interested in sex and drugs and such was not taken humourously.
But I have to say that however old somebody is if they tell me there is no interest in these thing I don't believe them. I was sixteen nine years ago. I was extremely interested in sex drugs and violence. I am around teenagers a lot. I see people playing Grand Theft Auto for hours, listening to music about rape and murder and racism day and night. I know what I see.

I don't think any kid I know would be apalled by the passage I posted. But some of you are. And won't tell me why, just tell me about rap music and women buying shoes.

So, okay. I will just wonder. Sorry to upset you. Thanks for your attention.
 

Danger Jane

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The thing is that that's not all we're interested in. You could boil down practically all books or movies or music or whatever down to sex, drugs, or violence, not only for YAs but for adults, too. So you can't just assume that just because the mindless entertainment is all about those three things that the only thing running through our heads is sex drugs violence.

Sorry if we misunderstood, man, just...like I said, nobody likes to be talked down to.
 

javili

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I will try this again. I am not talking down to anybody. I am not failing to take you seriously or I wouldn't be here.

My post was directed at people who seem shocked to find sex, violence and drugs in my stories. My point is that I doubt kids would faint or be twisted to live of crime by reading of these elements. And in fact, might be interested in them.

I posted trying to get some feedback from you on a piece I wrote involving a confrontation between two teenagers and some rapist cops. I have heard that it's just to shocking and awful.

I asked why and have heard nothing except complaints about my post. Perhaps it's my fault for not being more clear. I don't know.

I tried to take you seriously and get your opinion on some writing. It didn't work. I would say it didn't work because instead of reacting the way I expected, many reacted self-consciously and complaining about their plight. You can make your own conclusions on that.

Sorry. Won't happen again.
 

reenkam

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Honestly, I saw nothing particularly wrong with your story except for a couple word choices and one very specific action. Other than that I think it could work, and maybe even in YA.

I think the problem here is that you seem to be very, very focused on the sex, violence, and drugs. I'm not going to say that those things aren't slightly interesting. They can be, obviously. You mentioned things like Grand Theft Auto. Sure, it's hugely popular. As are movies that are similar. But, at the same time, when someone sits down to read a book, they're not looking for a novelized GTA San Antonio....

On this thread we were trying to discuss edgier YA fiction that's truer to life and maybe experiences that people our age might go through. Yes, there probably are rapist cops out there, but I'm not sure how many people want to read about said cops trying to rape a girl who slits their throats...Maybe it all works out in the story. Maybe there's some characterization later. If so, then you should definitely ignore any negative comments, if you feel it's really needed. If not...then it seems like you're just putting it there because you think that's what teens want now.

As others have pointed out, you're generalizing the teenage population. You mentioned that you're 25 (I think) but you seem seperated from the diversity that prevails at all ages, including teens. Not everyone likes seeing people shot for no reason...

So, just to wrap things up, I don't think people found your writing terrible. I think they just didn't see the broader picture. If there is one, then great. If there isn't, take a long look at the piece and see if you need it. As to the teen comments, be careful generalizing. It's not appreciated, as you found out, even when you might be joking. Jokes don't work well online anyway. Especially when the joke is potentially insulting.

At this point I think we should all just...I don't know, forget about things said and start over and get back to the discussion about edgy YA literature.
 

javili

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Thanks for your comments. Actually I'm 35 (typo/latenight stupid)

This is one of the two most troublesome scenes in this book. I posted it because people were talking about how rapists should be violently punished in another thread. I posted it here because of comments Shady made elsewhere and to gauge the YA reaction. (So far only reaction is teenage stuff, not to the excerpt) If this is OK, no problem with the rest of the book.

Again, I think you are mis-interpreting my "generalization" of the age group. I'm not sure what "diversity" means here, but I think I get exposed to a pretty broad range of kids in Mazatlan from gringo Spring Break idiots to hard core street criminals to people who live in levels of poverty and ignorance that I don't think really exist in the United States or England.

Maybe not everybody wants to see a rape/stabbing. But that would be hard to tell from the comic sales and DVD rentals here. (I also write scripts, by the way, and on those forums it is mostly an accepted fact that the best-selling films for this age group is what is called "slasher horror" by many)

So I wanted to see what people in this age group thought of this. They don't want to tell me. I'll try something else.

I saw nothing particularly wrong with your story except for a couple word choices and one very specific action.

Thank you. Finally a comment. I only wish that you could tell me what action, give me a clue as to what words. It would be a big help.

Thanks again.

Yes, I'd like to discuss "edgy YA". Principally this piece. I was thinking to post other excerpts, but I wonder if I should.
 
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bethany

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I'm no expert on, well, anything, but from what I've heard you're going to see lots of "edgy" titles in the next couple of years, and right now editors may be pulling back a little, but that doesn't mean an edgy book won't sell. A couple of years ago the thing was chick-lit, and you may see a little less of that in the next couple of years. The truth is, that there is always a place for a well written book with emotional depth and great characters. There are trends in publishing, and sometimes crappy books get put out in the enthusiasm for a certain trend. The key is not to compare your book to the crappy ones, realizing that person was probably in the right place at the right time and the publication was probably a fluke.

I am around teens all the time, and I rarely see gossip girls books. I do see lots of Twilight, K. L. Going (Fat Kid Rules the World and St. Iggy), I see some Carolyn Mackler (The Earth My Butt and Other Big Round Things) and books I would compare to that and would call thoughtful teenage chick-lit. I think we all like a selection, something that hits us in the gut, may be what we remember as a great book, but after the intense book maybe we'd like to read something quiet and introspective.

As a YA writer, I find it mildly annoying when people pop up with no idea of what YA is all about. Can my characters kiss? Can my characters say crap? You've all seen this. My guess is that these people are either A. doing their research in the MG section and don't know the difference B. Not doing research except on message boards or C. let somebody read it and they rung their hands and said you can't write this for kids, and the writer got nervous and wants some second opinions.

When people ask me about my forthcoming book, I usually say, well it's about a girl who gets caught in a compromising situation involving handcuffs, gets grounded and then gets involved in an activity that lands her in real handcuffs. Then people look at me and say, you wrote this for kids? and I say, yes. It's fun.

In my queries I called my YA book edgy and had a little over 50% request rate from agents. I don't think agents or editors are afraid of edgy, but they are leery of gratuitous. You know?
 

Esopha

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Again, I think you are mis-interpreting my "generalization" of the age group. I'm not sure what "diversity" means here, but I think I get exposed to a pretty broad range of kids in Mazatlan from gringo Spring Break idiots to hard core street criminals to people who live in levels of poverty and ignorance that I don't think really exist in the United States or England.

Maybe not everybody wants to see a rape/stabbing. But that would be hard to tell from the comic sales and DVD rentals here. (I also write scripts, by the way, and on those forums it is mostly an accepted fact that the best-selling films for this age group is what is called "slasher horror" by many)

America isn't all peaches and cream. I'm probably getting the statistic wrong, but I understand that over 40% of Americans live below the poverty line. Diversity is understanding that everyone has different opinions, and will be offended by different things. It means that generalizations are a no-no, and should be used in a joking fashion only when you are around those who you know will take it as a joke.

That said, I never go see slasher horror, and I don't hang around those who do. I agree with you in that our culture is so focused on blood and gore that we've lost sight of other important things, like those 40% of us who can't afford daily bread and butter. As a teenager, I'd rather spend my weekends raising money for charities rather than playing Grand Theft Auto.

The point is, write YA fiction like you would write fiction for adults. The only difference should be that you're writing about teenagers, not 30 or 40 year-olds.

Actually, there really isn't much YA sci-fi I know of...other than, say, "The Ear, The Eye and The Arm," or "In the House of the Scorpion."

But neither of those are very "edgy"

Ender's Game or some of Garth Nix's work, specifically Shade's Children. The Giver, The Uglies, The Feed. I can't think of any others. Most of the YA sci-fi I've read is softer sci-fi, not the hard-core aliens and spaceships with quantum worked in.
 

Esopha

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Well, Orson Scott Card wrote it for adults, but a lot of children read it because it was about children. The same with Ender's Shadow. Later, he said he was a little upset that younger people stopped reading his books because the later ones were about Ender as an adult.
 

Provrb1810meggy

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I think Ender's Game was originally adult, but they kind of re-packaged it for YA. Maybe I'm wrong, though.
 

reenkam

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When people ask me about my forthcoming book, I usually say, well it's about a girl who gets caught in a compromising situation involving handcuffs, gets grounded and then gets involved in an activity that lands her in real handcuffs.

That's got to be one of the best descriptions I've read for a book. It's got enough detail so that I can guess...but it's elusive enough that I have no idea. What's the title of this? I'm definitely going to look it up...

Ender's Game or some of Garth Nix's work, specifically Shade's Children. The Giver, The Uglies, The Feed. I can't think of any others. Most of the YA sci-fi I've read is softer sci-fi, not the hard-core aliens and spaceships with quantum worked in.

Those are some really good examples. I think you're right. It's soft sci-fi, which is probably why I didn't even think of it. I loved Shade's Children (Garth Nix is amazing) and The Giver. And Feed. I haven't read the Uglies or the other two in the trilogy, but I plan to.
 

Zoombie

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I'll need to write some hard sci-fi for YA...what better way to teach the kids about particle physiscs and quantum irregularity fields?
 

Esopha

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You could always stick them in a fusion chamber and watch their little faces light up with glee.
 

javili

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The point is, write YA fiction like you would write fiction for adults. The only difference should be that you're writing about teenagers, not 30 or 40 year-olds.

Actually I do write for adults. And am writing this novel for adults. But since most of the characters are teens (and somebody told me "This is great...for people who just outgrew Harry Potter") I thought I'd test those waters here.

And what I'm being told is that the material that would be acceptable for an adult novel...and tame for a slasher movie... is somehow not okay for teens for not clearly specified reasons.

What I gather is that it's too violent and sexual for teenagers but to say that is not taking them seriously, but to say that I think they can handle it is a sweeping generalized statement that teens are all about sex and violence.

I've never been very good at mixed messages and this confuses me. I'm not a parent, but this sort of give me a clue about what parents of teenagers are always whining about.

I give up. Well, no, I'll ask again... does anybody have anything to say about what in this excerpt makes it unacceptable for YA? I would appreciate it.
 

Danger Jane

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Great examples. Really they're all great so I can't comment on each one individually, lol.

Javili, I agree with the poster who said the excerpt might have been poorly-received simply because it was out of context. Graphic violence in the middle of a book where we already understand the characters is less jarring than out of context graphic violence.

So no, your excerpt is not expressly too violent for YA. It all depends on how it fits in with the rest of the book.
 

Esopha

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And what I'm being told is that the material that would be acceptable for an adult novel...and tame for a slasher movie... is somehow not okay for teens for not clearly specified reasons.

What I gather is that it's too violent and sexual for teenagers but to say that is not taking them seriously, but to say that I think they can handle it is a sweeping generalized statement that teens are all about sex and violence.

I have to agree with Danger Jane. Explicit violence for no reason is almost always ill-received. If your story has gratuitous violence, that's fine, but it needs to make sense.

Also, your comments in this post are different than your other posts. These comments are nonjudgemental and cannot be taken in a negative way. Your other comments, however, were broad, sweeping generalizations that people don't like, regardless of age. You didn't say that teenagers could handle violence. You said that's all they were interested in. Of course, later you said it was meant as a humorous statement.

There are no mixed messages from what I can see. What I can see is a series of mild misunderstandings. Please accept my apology if I am guilty of such a misunderstanding.
 

bethany

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This thread has become two different conversations, hasn't it?

Voice often sets YA apart from adult sci-fi. Look at Feed by MT Anderson and Rash by Pete Hautman for prime examples.

Most of the others mentioned probably skew more toward MG, remember Newberry is an MG award, and the Giver, The House of The Scorpion etc were Newberry books, albeit very good books that anyone could enjoy. I think Scott Westerfeild's Trilogy (Uglies, Pretties, Specials) probably falls into this category. The Last Book In the Universe by Rodman Philbrick, and Margaret Peterson Haddix's Among the Hidden series are younger MG, but also very good.

Ender's Game/Shadow were actually repackaged by scholastic with younger looking covers and bigger font, but they are primarily adult books, and wonderful, I love Orson Scott Card. There are many many adult Fantasy Books that teens regularly read. I see Stephen King's Dark Tower Series, Robert Jordan among others. I don't see too much traditional science fiction.

Javili- maybe you should read some of Darren Shan's books for an idea of what is acceptable in YA? He writes horror, but is very popular, so that might give you some idea of where the boundaries seem to be right now. I can't really comment on your piece out of context, perhaps you would be better served by posting some introductory material.

The question becomes how does this scene add to your plot, how does it develop your characters? A good scene needs to do both, if you feel it does so, then go with it. How important is it to you to identify the age group of your readers? Only you can answer that. I write YA and know my book will be YA, but if you are primarily considering your book Science Fiction, maybe you should focus primarily on writing the best Science Fiction book you can, and if it has YA appeal you can bet a good agent will recognize that....
 

javili

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Thanks for these comments. Believe me, I'm not trying to judge or belittle any of you. I'm asking for you advice. Don't tell anybody on the paper that, okay?

Javili- maybe you should read some of Darren Shan's books for an idea of what is acceptable in YA?

This is "Cirque du Freak" guy? I read one. Interesting. I also read "Maximum Ride" by James Patterson. Mutant kiddos with wings.

I'd be interested in comments on that book if anybody has any.

Oh, one thing about the rape scene. It's based on a true story...but more to the point of gratuitous, it is the first traumatic event that takes Cielo from sweet little Indita towards her eventual role as a leader of an urban guerilla group, of which her new friend in this excerpt is a major part.
 

reenkam

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javili: I don't know if you'd see, but I commented on your story over in SYW to clear up what I'd said earlier.

javili & everyone else: Has anyone read Cirque du Freak? I keep thinking about just buying the whole series, but I'm not sure. And I always hate having just one or two of a series...I want all or nothing haha. I've read two of his other books in the Demonata(?) series, but I haven't gotten through the third. The first chapter's kind of boring...but I think I'll try cause the first two were good and the fourth is out so I kind of want it...
 

reenkam

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Maybe I should get them, then...thanks Bethany!

Also, I'm going to revive this thread to ask about another "edgy" YA book.

So, I bought Mervin Burgess' Doing It, thinking I'd get some great edgy reading in. I'm only on page 66 right now, but I'm very disappointed. For one thing, it's not holding my attention. I don't care about any of the characters or what they're doing. For another thing, there's a lot of head-hoping going on. Isn't that frowned upon? Especially when they all sound the same? And then there's the fact that the characters don't seem consistant to me. They're all kind of flat with mixed personalities. Maybe this is all just because I'm only 66 pages in, but I'm starting to fear that it's not...

Does anyone know if this book was acclaimed because it was actually well written? Or was it just talked about because of the sex? So far it seems like it's all about the sex...which has been slightly awkward, anyway.
 

Shady Lane

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Reenkam--I actually love Doing It, but it's the kind of book I can understand not liking. I'd recommend getting all the way through it and seeing what you think. It's not his best book...that's Smack, without a doubt--I could rave about Smack for ages. But give Doing It a try (I don't know why I'm italicizing Smack and not Doing it....) and see what you think by the end. The head hopping is stylistic, and he handles it really well....it's the same sort of situation in Smack, too. Technically, it's not called head-hopping because he doesn't change in the middle of chapters...but, you know.
 

reenkam

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That's the thing...I just read a chapter where he was in dino's head, then jackie's, then dino's. that's what confused me. i don't mind switching between chapters. i'm liking the different POVs and first/third changes, but those two pages where I'm pretty sure he head-hopped annoyed me.

I'll definitely finish it, though. I'm not one to just give up. And I'm going to read, Smack, too. I'll see how it goes...