Trying to create a medieval fantasy setting

Thomas Vail said:

One of the subtle bits of world-building I really like from ASoIaF is that G.R.R Martin's world seems to have no moon, and I'm fairly sure that the whole series is completely devoid of lunar based language (I learned this factoid well after reading the series).

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I thought that for a while too, and even got excited wondering if that was why his world had such erratic seasonal cycles (because lack of a moon might mean a more erratic axial wobble). But no. The moon was reflecting in the water when Danys and Khal Drogo had their ritualized, um, joining or whatever it was in the first book. I don't remember which chapter it is, but it's the one where they have sex in the water.

I was very disappointed.

Note--also, searching on my nook (where I have A Clash of Kings) for the word "moon," there are several references to the moon in that book, the first one in the prologue.

Ahh, tsk, I first heard this long after I read the series, and the person telling it sounded so assured I didn't go back to check it out, since I couldn't recall any moon occurrences.

Mark Moore said:

Ever since I started writing to self-publish, I've kept a spreadsheet with various "ideas" (and I use that term very loosely) for possible limited series (that's how I write: series of short stories; I can't do novels). Usually, these'd be 1- or 2-word entries, such as "Magical Girl", "Treasure Hunter", "Medieval Princess", "Medieval Vampire Hunter", and so on. Just very basic concepts. I just jot them down whenever they pop in my head, but they've been sitting on that spreadsheet, undeveloped.

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I need to do this for story ideas. I'm in love with my current WIP and refuse to even dabble in another story. I've got a million that pop into my head.

Mark Moore said:

I've decided to create this medieval world for the same purpose: a place to house these potential future medieval stories.

I'm trying to decide on the number of deities. I would think there would have to be more than one, because, even if some lesser spiritual beings led people astray (angels, demons, etc.), having only one deity brings up the question of why she wouldn't end the conflict immediately.

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Deities are hard because they're so powerful. I usually stick with 3-7. I do like having immortal beings in my work that aren't as powerful as the deities. I typically find them far more interesting for some odd reason.

Mark Moore said:

So the logical thing (to me) is there are multiple deities of roughly equal power that are pitted against each other. This would explain why the good deities can't just win outright, and it would also explain the presence of things such as diseases and evil races of monsters.

However, the war between multiple deities thing is also part of my modern-day Earth universe (although the deities there aren't "good", they haven't had such a direct hand in human creation so much as got the whole process rolling eons ago and then let evolution take its course, and they decide to create a covenant with humanity only recently), and I don't want it to seem redundant.

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I wouldn't worry about seeming redundant. I know there are so many quirks people have about seeing things repeated over and over, but what interests you is what you should right about. Personally, there are two things to all of my work that I find just as crucial as a protagonist and antagonist: magic and immortals. I think that they can be just as diverse as any antagonist out there. That is what keeps deities from being redundant: what they do with their power.

For example, let's say you choose to have 7 deities and you have the good vs. evil theme. Instead of doing 3 against 4, you could have one be a spy, someone that plays both sides, someone that's an opportunist who is out for himself, etc.

Mark Moore said:

I also need to develop a magic system for my medieval world. I'm using the classical elements as the basis in my modern-day universe, so I don't want to do the same thing here.

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Now that's my Achilles' heel (deep character development too... but that's another story). I tend to over complicate magic systems until they don't feel very damn magical. Good luck with that one.

Mark Moore said:

Thanks, Allie B.! Those are some interesting things to consider.

I just realized today that I should set up some kind of monetary system. All of the currency will be coins, and I'm thinking gold and silver. I want to keep it fairly simple, so I'm not sure if I should have coins of various sizes or add a third metal (copper, maybe?).

I'd also have to figure out how many silver make up one gold and what would be reasonable prices to buy various things (I want to keep any prices mentioned consistent, so I won't have a character paying a hundred gold for a wagon and ten gold for a bowl of soup, etc.).

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Just don't make it too complex. I'd stick with gold/silver/copper-esque references over telling about different sizes. It's a detail that doesn't seem to matter too much that could get really confusing for the reader and perhaps lead to inconsistency through your writing.

It could be the way I think though. Different metals seem easier to remember than sizes.

Are you going to be doing Nano?

Mark Moore said:

Thanks, Allie B.! Those are some interesting things to consider.

I just realized today that I should set up some kind of monetary system. All of the currency will be coins, and I'm thinking gold and silver. I want to keep it fairly simple, so I'm not sure if I should have coins of various sizes or add a third metal (copper, maybe?).

I'd also have to figure out how many silver make up one gold and what would be reasonable prices to buy various things (I want to keep any prices mentioned consistent, so I won't have a character paying a hundred gold for a wagon and ten gold for a bowl of soup, etc.).

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In medieval Europe, silver was the basis of coinage. Gold used for decoration, not for money - it was too valuable & scarce after the collapse of the Roman Empire. There's a good article about medieval coinage here. Gold coinage resumed in the 13c, starting in Italy with the new gold florin (from Florence), but silver remained the dominant coinage for most purposes.

Coins were worth the value of the actual metal content, so coins with the same face value that were minted in different places or at different times might be worth very different amounts. And because the value of the coin = the value of the metal it contained, coins from many different places might all be circulating together in one community -- as long as people could figure out how much valuable metal was in a coin (which wasn't that hard), it didn't much matter where it came from or whose head was stamped on it.

To enable meaningful accounting, people couldn't rely on the face value of the coins they used - where consistent valuation was required, "money of account" was used, which was standardized and only loosely linked to specific coins (although confusingly, the names of the common coins and the units of account were the same).

Both coinage and accounting used the standard terminology that remained in the UK till around 1970: 1 pound = 20 shillings, 1 shilling = 12 pence. The silver penny was the most common coin.

During some parts of the middle ages, in some countries, any silver would do. The Vikings had what's now called hack silver. Slightly decorated bracelets or arm bands made of silver. If they didn't have enough coins and wanted to trade, they could break a piece off to be weighed by the merchant.

Also, think about how much money/coinage is actually going to come into your story. Say your character goes into a tavern (though, erm, the ye olde inns and taverns we know and love really came out of the Renaissance more than the middle ages) and purchases some wine or ale. Is it important that the reader knows exactly how much money he gave the barman or tavern girl or whatever?

It might be, especially if they character is counting their coins or is new to town and doesn't know how much things are supposed to cost. But a lot of the time, the act of tossing down a few coins for a drink is pretty mindless. And even if it isn't, you don't necessarily have to detail the exact coinage.

"That'll be two and three," said the barkeep. Tom counted out the necessary coins and waited while the man filled his drinking cup.

Or

"That'll be two and three," said the barkeep.

Two and three what? Tom scooped some coins out of his purse and stared at them. He still hadn't sorted out the way money worked here. "I don't--"

"Two of these." The barkeep plucked two tiny silver lozenges from the pile. "And three of these." He selected three tiny copper discs.

Mark Moore said:

I don't feel like making a separate post, but it's occurred to me to ask about the use of anachronistic (for our world) products. When I watch stuff like LotR, it irritates me whenever Gandalf or Aragorn smoke and when Sam says "po-ta-toes". Tobacco, potatoes, and a bunch of other items were unknown to medieval Europeans, and they feel (to me) out of place in medieval fantasy as well (setting aside the fact that Tolkien insisted LotR was set in Europe in our world).

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If it's supposed to be our own world's history, anachronisms might be an issue. But I'm fairly certain (too lazy to Google it) that Middle Earth was merely based on/inspired by our world; Tolkien was in no way suggesting that an archaeologist would someday stumble across the ruins of Mordor or the bones of hobbits (the "hobbit" hominid notwithstanding.) I'm not even sure that there was a North/South America equivalent in his canon (again, too lazy to look it up.)

Although, considering that there is evidence of pre-Columbian contact with the Americas, including possible medieval relics, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine potatoes and tobacco making it to an alt-world "Middle Earth" Europe long before Columbus, even if permanent trading/plundering relationships took longer to establish.

Dont rule out paper money. It was already being used in China in the middle ages. They called them treasure notes. Their basic currency was copper coins, so those were the denominations most of the bills came in. 5, 10, 100, 1,000, etc. They also used silver taels for currency, so their were silver bills too.

To give an idea of a copper's worth, circa the 12th century a pound of salt went for about 40 coppers, a liter of rice cost 24 coppers, a bolt of high quality silk cost about 3,000, a mule cost 4,000, a good horse cost 40,000, and a large house would run you 100,000. Government officials could make between 300 and 300,000 coppers a month depending on their rank, and day laborers could be hired at a salary of 200 coppers a day.

Mark Moore said:

I don't feel like making a separate post, but it's occurred to me to ask about the use of anachronistic (for our world) products. When I watch stuff like LotR, it irritates me whenever Gandalf or Aragorn smoke and when Sam says "po-ta-toes". Tobacco, potatoes, and a bunch of other items were unknown to medieval Europeans, and they feel (to me) out of place in medieval fantasy as well (setting aside the fact that Tolkien insisted LotR was set in Europe in our world).

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Just because something has a generally medieval setting doesn't mean it has to adhere to that period perfectly. It's fantasy. You make up your own rules. As long as they're logical and consistent, you're fine.

Mark Moore said:

Tobacco, potatoes, and a bunch of other items were unknown to medieval Europeans, and they feel (to me) out of place in medieval fantasy as well (setting aside the fact that Tolkien insisted LotR was set in Europe in our world).

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But Lord of the Rings wasn't set in the middle ages, nor was it really in Europe, though he went back and forth between stating that the Shire was in Northwestern Euope at about the same latitude as Oxford around 6000 years before the present. But he also said things that implied his "Middle Earth" was mythological as well, but he never attempted to tie it in strongly with the real world in terms of Geography or anything.

The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it feels familiar, even if a little glorified by enchantment of distance in time.(Letters, no. 183)

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I take this to mean that it's a fantasy set in a world that is based on our own, but with a lot of creative license taken.

Tolkien borrowed heavily from some the languages and mythology of Northern Europe, obviously. The "Merry England" archetype figured heavily into his Shire, certainly, while his Rohirrim resembled Saxons, and his dwarves were rather Norse, and Gondor seemed more like a classical civilization.

Many of the comfortable archetypes we're familiar with from D and D style "medieval" fantasy is more Renaissance, or even 18th century, than Medieval. There are a number of myths and misconceptions about the real middle ages as well (like the notion that no one ever bathed, or that most girls were married by their early teens, or that people were sexual prudes back then--Evidently, no one ever read Chaucer).

There's no rule that a fantasy novel's setting has to be completely consistent or faithful to the middle ages, in any case. Unless one is creating a historical fantasy that is set in the real world during a specific time. Even then. things like the presence of magic, or the existence of fantasy beings could change the dynamics of a society a lot.

Not saying that you shouldn't do that if you think it would be fun. And I think it's always handy to research things so you can get a sense of what's plausible or possible in a given setting. But one thing to consider also is that the middle ages took place over almost a thousand years, and there were many changes that occurred throughout. The world of 1100 is going to be very different than the 1400s, and of course a society modeled after, say, one of the Italian city states will be very different from one modeled on England or Germany..

rwm4768 said:

Just because something has a generally medieval setting doesn't mean it has to adhere to that period perfectly. It's fantasy. You make up your own rules. As long as they're logical and consistent, you're fine.

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Word

Also, LOTR wasn't exactly mediaeval either in many respects. The Shire in particular was more like 1700s Britain in some respects (some of the farming practices he describes were in use well into the 1930s because my Dad recognises them!). The industrial revolution had had an effect, but many places were still incredibly rural and un-industrialised (again, well into the 1930s in places). So if you take the shire to be say 1700 Britain, then tobacco and potatoes are fine (tobacco was grown here). Wasn't the presence of tobacco explained by it coming from Numenor originally? Westman's Weed? So there you are -- the New World (sort of lol) had brought back treasures.

But one thing to consider also is that the middle ages took place over almost a thousand years, and there were many changes that occurred throughout. The world of 1100 is going to be very different than the 1400s, and of course a society modeled after, say, one of the Italian city states will be very different from one modeled on England or Germany..

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This too

And the High Elves might have brought back potatoes, given that they went into the West and came back out again. That might have been where the Numenoreans got their pipeweed. No, I don't know a bit too much LotR lore for comfort...

But as for a medieval world, what seems to us like a massive chunk of time where not much changed was actually full of huge changes and wider events, even just in one nation. I've not long finished reading Ken Follet's 'Pillars of the Earth' which among other things reminds us that British religious architecture changed massively in the space of a few short decades, from solid walls and small Roman arches to the stonework lattice of Gothic construction we know as 'normal Cathedral' today - and that was just one tiny chunk of a time that spans more than a thousand years, in just one tiny chunk of the world.

From men to oxen to horses pulling ploughs, from bathing regularly to thinking a good stink drove off the devil, from the emergence of chain to the height of articulated plate and all the changes in the weapons of war that both drove and were necessitated by it, Europe's ancestors actually did a hell of a lot more than we realise - and that's without looking at the rest of the world. They were carrying out operations to remove cataracts and deliberately using antiseptics in the Middle East while people were still living in roundhouses in Britain.

ClareGreen said:

From men to oxen to horses pulling ploughs, from bathing regularly to thinking a good stink drove off the devil, from the emergence of chain to the height of articulated plate and all the changes in the weapons of war that both drove and were necessitated by it, Europe's ancestors actually did a hell of a lot more than we realise - and that's without looking at the rest of the world. They were carrying out operations to remove cataracts and deliberately using antiseptics in the Middle East while people were still living in roundhouses in Britain.

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And this (to me) is really an aspect of what's so fun about fantasy, whether it takes place in our world with some small changes, an alternative version of our own world, or a completely made up one. Even if your setting is quasi medieval and quasi European, there are a heck of a lot of "what ifs" you can play with. The presence of magic and fantasy creatures is an obvious one. But there are plenty of others, related to the timing of certain inventions and discoveries, the interactions between different cultures, the position and size of continents, the relative success of (or complete absence of) various religions, climate and so on.

One of my pet peeves (not aimed at you, OP), are writers (or their fans) who claim that things "have" to be a certain way in their fantasy, because "Hey, middle ages Europe was like this), when A. Their world is actually not terribly like medieval Europe, and B. It is fantasy, so it's fine to tweak things to make them more fun anyway.

But we all have different definitions of fun. And that's fine too.

Roxxsmom said:

One of my pet peeves (not aimed at you, OP), are writers (or their fans) who claim that things "have" to be a certain way in their fantasy, because "Hey, middle ages Europe was like this), when A. Their world is actually not terribly like medieval Europe, and B. It is fantasy, so it's fine to tweak things to make them more fun anyway.

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or C they have some really weird (and incorrect!) ideas about what medieval Europe was actually like and are in fact demanding for it to be more like 1850's Britain. .

Mr Flibble said:

or C they have some really weird (and incorrect!) ideas about what medieval Europe was actually like and are in fact demanding for it to be more like 1850's Britain. .

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Oh yes. I was thinking of some writers who do just this.

The point is, you can mix and match things in fantasy. Some readers will be put off, but if the world and story makes internal sense, many will like it just fine.

But if the OP does want to create a society that is very close to "real" medieval Europe, but in a different reality, that's fine too.

As long as the world makes internal sense (ie works as a culture) you're probably fine for most readers tbh.

But there's always one..

World building is fun, but ultimately it's just stage dressing. The story comes alive when the characters arrive and start doing stuff. And that's when the world ought to shape the characters which in turn drives the plot.

Otherwise, the details of how the world works are just another detail that we have to explain to the reader, which gets us into info-dump territory. Unless there is a strong plot or character reason for changing the measurement of time it's easier just to stick with what we currently use.

The way I think about it is this.... The thesis of a fantasy story is that it happens in a land far far away. That means that the book I am reading is probably translated from some original language so that I can understand it. And whilst translating it, the author has replaced the local units of time and distance with ones that I will understand.

The throggian army marched for fifty squiglons and covered twelve burgai miles in that time. The author translates by telling me that they marched for 3 hours and travelled about a mile. It's good enough.

If we play with basics like the measurement of time, they ought to affect the plot or characters in some way. For example, my WIP has a time system of twenty time periods in a day - ten turns of daylight followed by ten turns of night. At the end of each turn, the sky turns a slightly different colour.

But all that is there for a reason. Although the characters don't know it, their world is artificial. The sky is part of an environment which is controlled by machines. The plot then hinges on whether they decide to accept this artificial environment or try to escape.

If I didn't have a plot reason for fiddling with the measurement of time, I would have left it well alone.

Great advice here. I've enjoyed reading through the thread.

Mark Moore said:

I don't like two-person creation myths for this very reason, and it hurts my brain trying to figure out who Cain was afraid would kill him and why he felt the need to build a city.

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A closer reading of the Old Testament reveals that they lived to 900+ years old and had children fairly regularly throughout most of that time. Following the fabulous math given by Bloo, and because we don't have precise dates for the events in Cain's story, he could have had thousands or millions of people to worry about. Founding a city would seem like a sensible way to stave off loneliness, but also to protect himself (or give himself someone to rule over).

For the "how many years would it take" discussion, I wouldn't sweat the small details. Stories take place as far away from "creation" as you want them to. Of more real concern would be if anyone alive remembers creation or remembers first-hand accounts of creation. The number of generations, and thus the murky confusion about creation itself, is probably more important than the number of years.

Mark Moore said:

I just realized today that I should set up some kind of monetary system. All of the currency will be coins, and I'm thinking gold and silver. I want to keep it fairly simple, so I'm not sure if I should have coins of various sizes or add a third metal (copper, maybe?).

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In my current novel, metal is extremely rare. Thus they don't have metal coins, because a bag of copper coins would be worth a fortune. But unless your world has some compelling reason for currency to be "different," I'd follow other suggestions and keep it simple. The D&D world has reasonable guidelines for how much things cost and conversion rates between copper/silver/gold, which can serve as a baseline to create your own (simple!) system.