Difference between paranormal and straight-up fantasy?

summontherats

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So I got my first rejection to a full manuscript today! The feedback was wonderful, but she thought it'd be a tough sell, genre-wise--and she thought it was very firmly paranormal. I had never considered that.

The novel I'm querying is set in an original world with Victorian-style culture and technology, where immortal (yet bodiless) beings possess humans, after which the two have to share the body. These things have magical powers.

And I've been pitching it as just YA fantasy, because... well, there are possessions and trains, but it's also a highly magical premise with beings that are more like demigods than ghosts. When I think "paranormal" I mostly think ghost stories, pseudoscience, or vampires and werewolves. And even this earlier thread agrees that paranormal generally has a modern setting.

I realize genres are fluid and there's lots of overlap. But what makes a paranormal a paranormal?
 

Alli B.

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Paranormal:
  • Ghosts/spiritual entities (I include vampires, zombies, Frankenstein, demons, poltergeist, etc.)
  • UFOs (although I typically think of Sci-Fi, but technically it's defined as paranormal)
  • Cryptids (unconfirmed existing animal, werewolves, shapeshifters, mothman, bigfoot, etc.)

It's a staple of paranormal to deal with magical, explainable forces.

I would say the difference between your typical fantasy and paranormal, aside from the beings, is how dark it is. Paranormal tends to have a darker edge than most fantasies.
 

waylander

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I would have said that paranormal implies the story is set in this world with fantastical aspects and fantasy implies a made-up world. However, your agent rejection seems to contradict this. Possibly the agent doesn't know what she is talking about.
 

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So I got my first rejection to a full manuscript today! The feedback was wonderful, but she thought it'd be a tough sell, genre-wise--and she thought it was very firmly paranormal. I had never considered that.

The novel I'm querying is set in an original world with Victorian-style culture and technology, where immortal (yet bodiless) beings possess humans, after which the two have to share the body. These things have magical powers.

And I've been pitching it as just YA fantasy, because... well, there are possessions and trains, but it's also a highly magical premise with beings that are more like demigods than ghosts. When I think "paranormal" I mostly think ghost stories, pseudoscience, or vampires and werewolves. And even this earlier thread agrees that paranormal generally has a modern setting.

I realize genres are fluid and there's lots of overlap. But what makes a paranormal a paranormal?

I'm wondering about this too. There seems to be (judging from the random books I'm reading) an expectation that Paranormal will sort of be some sort of grafting of magic into a pre-existing genre such as hard-boiled detective or romance. One exception may be the one that proves the rule -- a western plus magic is always a fantasy.

I think the Victorian thing might be like a western and you hit fantasy (by convention?) rather than Paranormal.

I seem to have been unconsciously aware of this when I went full fantasy in an 18th century setting-- there was no way the 18th century was going to work out to be paranormal no matter what I did.
 

summontherats

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Paranormal:
  • Ghosts/spiritual entities (I include vampires, zombies, Frankenstein, demons, poltergeist, etc.)
  • UFOs (although I typically think of Sci-Fi, but technically it's defined as paranormal)
  • Cryptids (unconfirmed existing animal, werewolves, shapeshifters, mothman, bigfoot, etc.)
I would have said that paranormal implies the story is set in this world with fantastical aspects and fantasy implies a made-up world.
Exactly! This is why I'm confused. Paranormal makes me think X-Files. So there isn't a more fantasy-heavy sub-sub-genre that I missed?

I'm wondering about this too. There seems to be (judging from the random books I'm reading) an expectation that Paranormal will sort of be some sort of grafting of magic into a pre-existing genre such as hard-boiled detective or romance. One exception may be the one that proves the rule -- a western plus magic is always a fantasy.

I think the Victorian thing might be like a western and you hit fantasy (by convention?) rather than Paranormal.

I seem to have been unconsciously aware of this when I went full fantasy in an 18th century setting-- there was no way the 18th century was going to work out to be paranormal no matter what I did.

I was wondering if it wasn't the Victoriana's fault. There's a real historical connection between the Victorian era and the paranormal, and it's very common in historical fantasy, too. But I came at this from more of a "steampunk light" angle than a historical/paranormal angle, so this was unexpected. I wonder if she just read "possessions" and "Victorian" and figured that those two meant it had to be sold as some flavor of paranormal, regardless of the magic and the fact it's not the historical, real-world Victorian era.

I may just chalk it up to one agent's opinion.
 
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Alli B.

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I would have said that paranormal implies the story is set in this world with fantastical aspects and fantasy implies a made-up world. However, your agent rejection seems to contradict this. Possibly the agent doesn't know what she is talking about.
Personally, I disagree with this. As far as fantasy worlds go, I see three types: this world (which I call urban fantasy), a future version of our world (dystopia) and a made up world (generally just fantasy).

For example, Harry Potter is in our world, yet it feels fantasy. Why? Because it's magical wizards with a central "light vs. dark" theme. Something along the lines of Hocus Pocus (same youth market and wizard stereotype), I would consider paranormal because it's surrounded purely by dark magic. I don't see "light" magic being used by the protag.

I would say the same about something like Caspar (urban fantasy) vs. a movie like Constantine (paranormal).

And there are plenty of paranormal books based in a different world, Hellsing for example.

I was wondering if it wasn't the Victoriana's fault. There's a real historical connection between the Victorian era and the paranormal, and it's very common in historical fantasy, too. But I came at this from more of a "steampunk light" angle than a historical/paranormal angle, so this was unexpected. I wonder if she just read "possessions" and "Victorian" and figured that those two meant it had to be sold as some flavor of paranormal, regardless of the magic and the fact it's not the historical, real-world Victorian era.

I may just chalk it up to one agent's opinion.

When I read possessions without seeing context to the use of white/good/light-magic (unless that's what steampunk-light refers to... I have no idea what that is), I also immediately see it as a paranormal, regardless of the fact of it's being in this world vs. fantasy world or it being set in the Victorian-era.

Overall, you know your story best, and I would take your opinion over someone who hasn't read the book.
 

waylander

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Makes me wonder how much of the novel the agent read. Maybe she missed the 'made-up world' aspect of it. Even with that missed it doesn't fit my view of paranormal.
 

jerrimander

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I may just chalk it up to one agent's opinion.

I would do that, yes. I also wouldn't fret over genre. Leave that to the agent. Your work sounds interesting and shouldn't be dismissed because it doesn't fit a niche that one agent wants to fill.
 
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Like so many aspects of our lives, we try to categorize things as "a this" or "a that." It's a natural human characteristic that, unfortunately, more often than not results in applied stereotypes.

From the sounds of it you have a story with aspects that fit definitions from various buckets. Trying to jam the story into a single bucket doen't work. That won't stop folks from trying (such as the agent you talked to). I think you have the correct response; that's one agent's opinion so don't lose sleep over it and keep looking to other agents.
 

summontherats

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Thanks, everyone! I was mostly curious, since I really don't have a lot of experience with paranormal and wasn't sure if I was missing something. I don't normally obsess over genre, but if I did actually have a YA paranormal and should be pitching it at that, then maybe...

But I'm confident calling it a fantasy, especially after the comments here. It's in an other world, takes place in a walled-in kingdom led by an immortal, has some magic-fueled fights in it... Yeah.

I'm sure she read as far as she said she did--she had great comments about other things. So I guess this is less "I'm pitching the wrong genre" (which would worry me) than "she had a different idea for how she'd sell it and she didn't think that approach would work well." So the system's working! We just weren't a good fit.

But great! Now I'm even less worried.
 

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You can have paranormal set in another world. The possession, if that's the main magical aspect, and the Victorian setting do suggest you could market this as paranormal.

What the agent could mean ofc us "this will appeal to paranormal readers" which, given the info, sounds plausible


It doesn't sound all taht different to a "normal" paranormal in that respect unless there's some info you haven't given us.

If it reads like a Victorian paranormal...

But no way to tell without reading it
 

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For example, Harry Potter is in our world, yet it feels fantasy. Why? Because it's magical wizards with a central "light vs. dark" theme. Something along the lines of Hocus Pocus (same youth market and wizard stereotype), I would consider paranormal because it's surrounded purely by dark magic. I don't see "light" magic being used by the protag.

So fantasy has to have a good versus evil or light dark theme. But what about dark and grimdark fantasy, then, or fantasy noire?

Or is it automatically fantasy if it's in a made up world, regardless of whether it's primarily concerned with good and evil? Not arguing with your understanding, but this is the sort of thing that makes me nuts when it comes to categorizing a lot of what's out there, including my own novel.

To me, paranormal takes place in our world, whether it's contemporary or historical, and it's pretty much the real world, but with the sorts of fantastic elements some people think do exist (ghosts, ESP and so on) integrated into the world's reality pretty seamlessly. The kinds of things that aren't scientific, exactly, but maybe pseudo scientific? Or in some cases maybe aspects of peoples' belief systems, like in angels, spirits, demons and so on. If the world clearly departs from ours in some ways, even if it's an alternative history version of our world, then I'd call it fantasy.

Though Twilight is referred to as a paranormal romance and not an UF. Which I don't really understand, since werewolves and vampires seem more like fantasy, or possibly horror. They're not even supported by pseudoscience, or as far as I know, part of anyone's belief system.

It's possible (as Flibbles said) that the agent thought the book might appeal to paranormal readers, except that maybe he/she was concerned that it's setting was too much like steampunk or fantasy to make its content clear? Or maybe they thought that it would attract fantasy readers, but then disappoint them, because in some ways it felt more paranormal?
 
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Lillith1991

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So fantasy has to have a good versus evil or light dark theme. But what about dark and grimdark fantasy, then, or fantasy noire?

Or is it automatically fantasy if it's in a made up world, regardless of whether it's primarily concerned with good and evil? Not arguing with your understanding, but this is the sort of thing that makes me nuts when it comes to categorizing a lot of what's out there, including my own novel.

To me, paranormal takes place in our world, whether it's contemporary or historical, and it's pretty much the real world, but with the sorts of fantastic elements some people think do exist (ghosts, ESP and so on) integrated into the world's reality pretty seamlessly. The kinds of things that aren't scientific, exactly, but maybe pseudo scientific? Or in some cases maybe aspects of peoples' belief systems, like in angels, spirits, demons and so on. If the world clearly departs from ours in some ways, even if it's an alternative history version of our world, then I'd call it fantasy.

Though Twilight is referred to as a paranormal romance and not an UF. Which I don't really understand, since werewolves and vampires seem more like fantasy, or possibly horror. They're not even supported by pseudoscience, or as far as I know, part of anyone's belief system.

It's possible (as Flibbles said) that the agent thought the book might appeal to paranormal readers, except that maybe he/she was concerned that it's setting was too much like steampunk or fantasy to make its content clear? Or maybe they thought that it would attract fantasy readers, but then disappoint them, because in some ways it felt more paranormal?

Vampires and Werewolves are a part of peoples beliefs Roxx, unless you're discounting the fact people still follow traditions meant to kill or keep a person from turning into a Vampire as not a proper belief. Superstitions are beliefs, though they aren't religion. And something doesn't have to be a religion to count as a belief.

And Twilight is a PNR because it deals with a Romance as the main plot, and that Romance is human/supernatural creature or in this case vampire. Everything else in the series is to bolster Bella and Edwards relationship in some way or another, everything is secondary to them.
 

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I guess I'm wondering where one would draw the line between one of those urban fantasies (or a romantic fantasy for that matter) that people sometimes claim are "really romances" and a paranormal romance?

I guess what I'm saying is that I thought paranormal dealt with things that were ostensibly plausible, that don't stretch what conventional wisdom thinks of as reality too much, while fantasy tends to step further away from things that people think of as likely and into true magic and fantasy creatures.

If it's ESP and ghosts, angels, and the type of werewolves and vampires that are supported by cultural tradition, then maybe it's paranormal. But if it's non humans with superpowers, and which bear little resemblance to any traditional view of such beings, it feels more like urban fantasy.

Edward didn't seem very much like the kind of vampire that some people really believe they could turn into to me.

But genres and subgenres kick my butt. As I've said, I don't even know what my own novel is, except for a fantasy story set in a secondary world.
 
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ClareGreen

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Sometimes, 'a fantasy story set in a secondary world' is all you need.

To me, 'paranormal' is stuff that's in the mainstream consciousness as 'there may be something to it', like ghosts and water divining and ESP. A lot of people will say reflexively that they don't believe in ghosts, then tell you about that time they were home alone and heard someone going down the extra step that didn't exist any more or the night they spent in a friend's spare room and felt someone sit down on the end of the bed. They don't believe in ESP, but they'll tell you that somehow they just knew when someone close to them was about to ring them - or when some close to them died. Paranormal is the things that ordinary people laugh at as impossible during the daylight, but aren't quite so sure about when the nights draw in and the cemetery is on the walk home from work.

What people are willing to believe in in the quiet darkness of their own minds at midnight varies, so the definitions of paranormal vary, but there does seem to be a common core of 'maybe it is real after all'.

ETA: That said, Twilight as a PNR seems a marketing decision rather than a genre definition. To label it a fantasy might be a little too close to home for some...
 
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I've just started pitching my most recent WIP as straight-up Fantasy and it does kinda sorta straddle the paranormal line, especially in the first third and gets more surreal as things progress. There are some romance elements too, though I wouldn't say they dominate.

Unlike earlier novels I plan to be more aggressive getting this one out there, so I'll see later on if I get similar feedback in that regard.
 

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ETA: That said, Twilight as a PNR seems a marketing decision rather than a genre definition. To label it a fantasy might be a little too close to home for some...

Now that makes sense to me. And it gets back to that whole "genre is really what the people marketing the books say it is."
 
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Now that makes sense to me. And it gets back to that whole "genre is really what the people marketing the books say it is."


Fantasy as a genre is separate from Romance as a genre. PNR is a cross-over genre, essentially, although it involves many more romance elements. Also, they tend to have less outright explicit magic, and more mythical elements or paranormal elements. I've run across very few books marketed as PNR that don't fit those criteria. It's also important to note that a genre title cannot necessarily be interpreted literally. It gets a name and then as the genre changes, the original lay definition of the word is stretched, but the history and momentum makes it still a useful term.
 

jjdebenedictis

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Exactly! This is why I'm confused. Paranormal makes me think X-Files. So there isn't a more fantasy-heavy sub-sub-genre that I missed?
In the fantasy subgenres, paranormal is definitely not the X-Files. There used to be a lot of paranormal romance in fantasy, and I always had trouble distinguishing it from urban fantasy (except for the focus on romance.) So now, when someone say "paranormal", I think of something a lot like urban fantasy, except with a main character who is maybe more spooked by magic/magical creatures than the protagonist in a typical urban fantasy is.

That said (and as others have noted), the label they slap on a book has more to do with attracting the people who would enjoy that book than with accurately describing the book. If the editor thinks paranormal fantasy fans would be the primary audience for your novel, then it magically becomes a paranormal fantasy. :D And agents know enough about the tastes of the editors they deal with to accurately guess what label the book will wind up with, and thus pitch it as such.

The agent may also have just thought that "fantasy" isn't the right label because that calls up images of pseudo-Tolkienlandia and non-European equivalents. If your book feels steampunk-ish, then I can see someone in the industry shying away from calling it plain ol' fantasy -- that term doesn't trigger the right preconceived notions.

That's actually important, to salespeople, because when you promise one thing to a person and then deliver something else, they get upset, even if the "something else" was great. So the agent really wants to find a description of the product that will make the editor imagine the right sort of book.
 

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In regards to the OP, by the description you gave of the book, I too would label it as paranormal if in fact the possessions are the overlying element of the story. There's no way I could say for sure without reading it, but paranormal and fantasy are not two elements that can never cross (even second world fantasy).

The big key is what is the main theme that shines through the novel? Maybe another agent would feel the paranormal isn't significant enough to put that designation on it but in the end that is all the designation is. This agent might have turned it down because the editors she would feel comfortable sending this to wouldn't be right because of what she felt was a heavy paranormal aspect.

Hope that helps.
 

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To me, 'paranormal' is stuff that's in the mainstream consciousness as 'there may be something to it', like ghosts and water divining and ESP.

That is exactly how I see it too -- paranormal is things that could be real because of real world cultural stuff. Things that people believe might actually occur here even if many people don;y believe it.

This is not the same as a separate world where there are magicians, firebals, etc. Now re the OP if it reads like the first, it may well get labelled that way (even if it isn't if it gets read that way). Which is fine if you pitch it as that. If you think that label does it a disservice, you may need to look at it again and/or pitch it differently
 
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summontherats

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I've been watching this thread as more people came in. This is pretty enlightening.

That said (and as others have noted), the label they slap on a book has more to do with attracting the people who would enjoy that book than with accurately describing the book. If the editor thinks paranormal fantasy fans would be the primary audience for your novel, then it magically becomes a paranormal fantasy. :D And agents know enough about the tastes of the editors they deal with to accurately guess what label the book will wind up with, and thus pitch it as such.

The agent may also have just thought that "fantasy" isn't the right label because that calls up images of pseudo-Tolkienlandia and non-European equivalents. If your book feels steampunk-ish, then I can see someone in the industry shying away from calling it plain ol' fantasy -- that term doesn't trigger the right preconceived notions.

That's actually important, to salespeople, because when you promise one thing to a person and then deliver something else, they get upset, even if the "something else" was great. So the agent really wants to find a description of the product that will make the editor imagine the right sort of book.

Yes! I'm not looking for someone to tell me what my story is, but I do want to understand why the agent categorized it like that. I think I understand better now. It's just fascinating, since I never really considered it.

I've actually been looking for a specific sub-genre for a while. "YA Fantasy" isn't terribly descriptive--and, just like you said, I was worried people might think it's high fantasy. I played with calling it steampunk (but the tech doesn't matter and hardly factors into the story at all) or gaslamp (though only in the Agatha H definition, and not the historical-Victorian-with-magic). Both of those felt... off. Like many have said, it's probably just because my story has elements of multiple genres and could be sold as different things.

I'm not entirely sure on paranormal fantasy, either. I can see how it ticks more of the boxes now (the possession IS the central element of the story, the MC is sharing a body throughout, it's not MAGE AND GODS MAGICAL, except that these immortals-that-possess-folks summon fire and fly and such. And one agent thought it fit very well there, which also lends weight to it.) The label makes sense to a number of you here, but its (more common?) association with UF-style fiction threw off others.

Personally, all I'm worried about is whether I'm getting the responses I want from my queries and whether I'm calling it a right enough genre. I've got one other full manuscript out, so I don't appear to be doing too badly... But I'll be super excited to see what she thinks. The first agent only said that paranormal, in general, is a very hard sell right now, especially for debut authors.
 

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That said (and as others have noted), the label they slap on a book has more to do with attracting the people who would enjoy that book than with accurately describing the book.
This.

I've actually been looking for a specific sub-genre for a while. "YA Fantasy" isn't terribly descriptive--and, just like you said, I was worried people might think it's high fantasy. I played with calling it steampunk (but the tech doesn't matter and hardly factors into the story at all) or gaslamp (though only in the Agatha H definition, and not the historical-Victorian-with-magic). Both of those felt... off. Like many have said, it's probably just because my story has elements of multiple genres and could be sold as different things.

...

Personally, all I'm worried about is whether I'm getting the responses I want from my queries and whether I'm calling it a right enough genre. I've got one other full manuscript out, so I don't appear to be doing too badly... But I'll be super excited to see what she thinks. The first agent only said that paranormal, in general, is a very hard sell right now, especially for debut authors.
The D&D world (Forgotten Realms of which is one) has vampires, werewolves, ghosts, and possession. Yet I doubt anyone would ever call it paranormal. Likewise, the video game series Dragon Age has tons of spirit possessions going on- depending on the player's character, it plays a central theme in the first game, it has huge influence over the expansion and second game, and is key to the entire plot of the third game. Yet Dragon Age is fantasy.

Paranormal is very hard to pin down. It means something different to everyone. Even fantasy can be hard to nail down sometimes.

I read some advice somewhere (and can't find it now) about marketing your book in the broadest sense possible and let the editor decide. If they are interested enough to read it, they can decide how to market it in a way that works. I would stick to YA Fantasy and leave it at that; if an editor specifically asks for subgenre, you can let them know it has "elements" of this or that, but don't classify it as such- let them do the classifying. You should get more editors to read at least a sample that way, as they won't throw it out right off based on subgenres that mean something different to them than they do to you.
 

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The agent may also have just thought that "fantasy" isn't the right label because that calls up images of pseudo-Tolkienlandia and non-European equivalents. If your book feels steampunk-ish, then I can see someone in the industry shying away from calling it plain ol' fantasy -- that term doesn't trigger the right preconceived notions.

I think this is the right answer, honestly. Preconceived notions are what's in play here; I'm not sure genre is something the author decides, either.