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YouWriteOn.com / New Generation Publishing / Legend Press

HJW

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Hi there

As one of the YWO "winners" I felt I had to pitch in.

As far as I am aware, the POD publishing option is just that. An option. No one at YWO could force winners to publish their work through the POD arm of the site as no contracts have been exchanged. (And as FergieC points out, YWO only have the first few chapters of each person's work, which can be removed from the site at anytime). It's up to individuals to decide whether they want to take the POD route or not.

For the past couple of weeks all those at YWO have been working really hard to get some publicity for the award winners.

At the same time, they have made it clear (at least to me) that there are no guarantees that anything will come of this for any of the winners, but at the end of the day the publicity certainly isn't going to do anyone any harm.

YWO has helped me a huge amount. I've learned so much from other writers, from the professional critiques and from spending hours reviewing other people's work. I've also been lucky enough to get this little boost, which has encouraged me to keep going, if nothing else.:)
 
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victoriastrauss

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I may only be 18 but I think some of the opinions here indicate that wisdom about publishing doesn't necessarily come with age.
You're right. Wisdom about publishing comes with experience, which you don't appear to have.

If you can't express your opinions politely--i.e., without using belittling labels--please refrain from expressing them at all. (And maybe you thought I wouldn't notice that you used your rebuttal post as an excuse to insult Roger two more times. That's right up there with "I'm sorry you're stupid.")

FergieC said:
Six new writers have had their names, and the names of their books in the BBC news site, which is way better publicity than most unpublished writers could hope for.
The writers got their names and book titles online, sure. But their books aren't published yet, so no one can actually buy them. Do you think that anyone will remember who those writers are, as a result of this news story, long enough to remember to buy their books when the books are actually released? Pre-publication publicity is important, but it needs to be more targeted and focused than this--and it needs to be supported with followup pre- and post-publication publicity. One news story, even from a giant news organization, does not qualify as good book publicity.

The main benefit of this publicity is for YWO, which will probably get a bump in membership as a result of the story.

- Victoria
 

Momento Mori

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HJW:
the POD publishing option is just that. An option. No one at YWO could force winners to publish their work through the POD arm of the site as no contracts have been exchanged. (And as FergieC points out, YWO only have the first few chapters of each person's work, which can be removed from the site at anytime). It's up to individuals to decide whether they want to take the POD route or not.

It is an option, which people who feature in the Best Seller Chart can take up by agreeing to meet the further review criteria that I highlighted in my previous post. However, if you've exercised that option and subsequently decide you don't want to self-publish, it would be arguably open for YWO to claim that your book is contracted to their self-publishing arm (I'll caveat that by repeating that the YWO terms are a little confusing in certain respects and it's entirely probable that YWO does not operate a policy of forcing winners to publish against their will).

KellyG - as regards the BBC - note that they don't take any responsibility for the content of other websites or companies, so by reporting on winners they are not offering an endorsement of the service.

MM
 

HJW

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It is an option, which people who feature in the Best Seller Chart can take up by agreeing to meet the further review criteria that I highlighted in my previous post. However, if you've exercised that option and subsequently decide you don't want to self-publish, it would be arguably open for YWO to claim that your book is contracted to their self-publishing arm (I'll caveat that by repeating that the YWO terms are a little confusing in certain respects and it's entirely probable that YWO does not operate a policy of forcing winners to publish against their will).

MM

To clarify matters, I e-mailed YWO and asked whether they would send the boys round if I declined to publish with them. Their response was : "winners and everyone can publish with who they like."
 
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HJW

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Thanks!

I've never won anything before, well except a bottle of vodka in an office raffle and the odd tenner on the lottery.
 

Momento Mori

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HJW:
I e-mailed YWO and asked whether they would send the boys round if I declined to publish with them. Their response was : "winners and everyone can publish with who they like."

As I said, it was probable that this was their policy. But the fact remains that their terms and conditions are worded in such a way as to leave open the possibility of their enforcing a contract.
 

HJW

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As I said, it was probable that this was their policy. But the fact remains that their terms and conditions are worded in such a way as to leave open the possibility of their enforcing a contract.

I don't agree that the terms and conditions leave this open as a possibility. They are a bit vague in a way, but I don't think there is a sinister reason for this.

Also, given that YWO is a publicly funded site and their Arts Council budget is not huge (you can find out exactly how much they have received if you google around a bit), I can't see them dragging any of us through the courts because we decide we don't want to publish with them.

Anyway, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. But I'll let you know if the scenario you envisage happens!
 

FergieC

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You can't enforce a contract unless there is a contract to enforce; and there is no contract unless you sign one. Given that you're never asked to sign anything with YWO, there isn't anything to enforce.

Also, I'm not at all sure you could manage to find yourself in a contract with someone else that obliged you to self publish: it would seem silly somehow. I may be wrong though...
 
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Momento Mori

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FergieC:
You can't enforce a contract unless there is a contract to enforce; and there is no contract unless you sign one. Given that you're never asked to sign anything with YWO, there isn't anything to enforce.

There is an arguable contract given that to register with the site you're judged to have read and agreed to the terms and conditions of use. Whether it's enforceable or not is a matter for debate.

HJW it's because the terms and conditions are vague that the situation I describe remains an arguable possibility. I personally doubt whether YWO would ever seek to enforce it but this doesn't negate the fact that it's there as an option.

From reading some of the exchanges here I can understand why YWO supporters may be defensive about this program. However I've consistently maintained the position that whilst it's not something I'd be up for using, I can see what the benefits are for other users.

MM
 
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JanDarby

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You can't enforce a contract unless there is a contract to enforce; and there is no contract unless you sign one. Given that you're never asked to sign anything with YWO, there isn't anything to enforce.

Just for the record, and I'm not commenting on the pros and cons of YWO, just the legalities of contract law. Actions can substitute for a signature in forming a contract.

A contract in the United States (and I believe it is the same in the UK, since this is common law, derived from British law) requires only an offer, acceptance and consideration (and without going into the details, there would probably be consideration on both sides in the situation at hand).

An offer is often in the form of a written contract, with acceptance in the form of a signature on that contract. But it doesn't have to be. Most types of contract (exceptions for things like real estate and loans over a certain dollar amount and so on) can be oral, acceptance can be a handshake or an "okay."

Another form of acceptance is action. If Person A offers to publish a book that meets certain criteria, and a book is submitted (that's the acceptance)and meets those criteria, then there is a potentially enforcable contract for Person A to publish the book.

Of course, this is all theoretical, and there may be practical reasons why the contract wouldn't be enforced. I'm just mentioning it as the legal foundation for being wary about the terms offered BEFORE submitting anywhere, rather than submitting and assuming there's no enforcable contract just because there's no signature anywhere. Lawyers like to imagine the worst-case scenario, just so that the worst-case scenario doesn't happen to the client, but if the client wants to go ahead, because the best-case scenario is worth the risk, that's up to the client.

JD, not giving individual legal advice, just general information.
 

RJLeahy

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Hello Richard,

Still a big fan of "One Big Love". I wish you much good fortune with that one.

Alan

Thanks Alan, the book is finished and will be making the agent rounds this month, with a new title, Fat Chance. Good luck with Pink Belly as well and please let me know when its available.

To all: I guess I don't see where all the fuss is about. YWO is, above all else, a critique site, one of the best I've seen. It has the added incentive, that if your work is rated highly enough, it will get a critique by a respected author or editor-- not a bad thing.

If you happen to make book of the year, you even get your worked looked at by an agent from a respected Agency-- and you don't even need to write a query letter. Not a bad thing either.

Will said agent take you on? Who knows. If not, then start the submissions process like everyone else, or retool it, or put it away and start something else, in any event you've gotten the kind of critique and feedback most first-time novelists would love.

"But what if I really, really want to the thing in print?"

Well ok, then YWO will publish the thing itself. It will be POD so don't get your hopes up, but if that's what you want...

Anyway, I also want to take a moment to praise one of the best things I read on YWO. It didn't win BOTY, but it made the final three. It is titled Bufflehead Sisters byPatricia Delois. I don't know this woman, but she's a great talent and the opening of the book was wonderful.

That was the only irritating aspect of YWO. If a piece was bad, then five chapters seem liked an eternity to read. On the other hand, if it was great, you'd just get into it when it stops. No have to wait for her book to get published.:)
 

Alexandra Little

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I was contemplating joining the website, but I haven't had the time to look it through (ask me how midterms went, I dare you). They advertised the help of Curtis Brown and Orion & Bloomsbury, but the publishing packages are a red flag with me.

Then again, if you don't have to buy the publishing packages, maybe its their way of making money. I can't envision an arts council having deep pockets.
 

NickP

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Anyway, I also want to take a moment to praise one of the best things I read on YWO. It didn't win BOTY, but it made the final three. It is titled Bufflehead Sisters byPatricia Delois. I don't know this woman, but she's a great talent and the opening of the book was wonderful.

That was the only irritating aspect of YWO. If a piece was bad, then five chapters seem liked an eternity to read. On the other hand, if it was great, you'd just get into it when it stops. No have to wait for her book to get published.:)

Well YWO have published it (and it's sold considerably more than 75 copies, I believe):

Bufflehead Sisters
 

MiniMeEmma

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I agree Bufflehead Sisters by Patricia J. DeLois is an excellent read. It was published by YouWriteOn.com as a POD book, and was named Read of the Year by the newspaper The Press Herald in the author's state of Maine in a poll of librarians, book store owners and book readers, ahead of a former Pulitzer Prize winner. As a result it was requested and stocked by bookstores there, also entered the Salt & Honey by Candi Miller named as one of the Top Ten Books to Talk About for World Book Day along with books by big publishers like Bloomsbury and other small publishers like Snowbooks.
 
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victoriastrauss

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YouWriteOn seems to have helped a few of its members to find literary agents and to polish their work for publication. That's great, and I don't think anyone would say otherwise.

I think what most people here feel uneasy about is the vanity publishing angle. If the books that are vanity-published by YouWriteOn are good enough to get the kind of notice described in the post above, quite possibly they were good enough to score a real publishing deal. Sidetracking talented authors into paid publishing isn't doing them any favors.

- Victoria
 

petec

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Thanks for all that info, MiniMeEmma. Are you able to take it one step further and tell us if Patricia paid YWO to have Bufflehead Sisters POD-ed by them with Legend Press? I ask because this would be relevant to Victoria's post.
 

NickP

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Thanks for all that info, MiniMeEmma. Are you able to take it one step further and tell us if Patricia paid YWO to have Bufflehead Sisters POD-ed by them with Legend Press? I ask because this would be relevant to Victoria's post.

I can tell you that Patti did not pay.

The YWO publication was after the in-house agents and editors circulated by YWO had decided not to take a chance. Only after its relatively spectacular success following YWO's publication did she get taken on by an agent.

There's an interview with her on http://www.identitytheory.com/
 

pdelois

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YWO/POD

Patricia J. DeLois here.

Here's the deal. I have a contract with YWO which gives them nonexclusive rights to publish my book. That means I am free to market my book elsewhere.Should I sell the book to someone who wants to publish it exclusively, I can terminate my contract with YWO by giving them one month's notice. They cannot force me to publish with them.

If I had purchased the POD deal, I might consider that vanity publishing, but YWO purchased the deal in order to publish my book, because they thought it was worth publishing. Does this carry any weight in the industry? Apparently it does.

With the promotion done by YWO and with a good review in the Maine Sunday Telegram, Bufflehead Sisters sold over 1200 copies in the US in its first two months. I don't know how many copies sold elsewhere. No doubt sales fell off after Christmas, but I'd say that YWO kept their promise to bring my writing to the attention of the industry, because I now have an agent, and the agent's had a firm offer for a two-book publishing deal.

I have not paid anything at any time to YWO. They did not "sidetrack" me into the POD deal, they awarded it to me, and yes, I would say they did me a favor.
 

HJW

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Random House are now to become involved with YouWriteOn

RANDOM HOUSE HAS announced that it will read and consider highly rated Top Ten stories from YouWriteOn.com, an Arts Council funded website that helps new writers develop. The initial scheme will run from April to September this year.

In 2007, YouWriteOn member Doug Jackson received a six-figure book deal with Transworld following his work with a YouWriteOn editor. Highly rated chart members on the site receive free Arts Council funded critiques on site to help them develop, including from Bloomsbury and Orion editors.

Alison Hennessey, Editor at Random House imprint Vintage, welcomed the scheme: "Review sites like YouWriteOn are hugely beneficial for both author and publisher. A piece of work from their site will have been through several different incarnations, thereby familiarising the author with the notion of self-editing and, as a result, the final piece will be of a much higher standard than an unsolicited submission sent to a publisher."

She added that this was an additional way of spotting talent, and did not spell out an end to the conventional slush pile at Random House.

Edward Smith, YouWriteOn.com Manager, said he felt that "in its own quiet way…the publishing industry is now gradually seeing the introduction of its own 'Arctic Monkeys Moment', with the nurturing and discovery of authors online".
 

YouWriteOn

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YouWriteOn.com and Random House

Greetings after a long while! We hope we've come on a little since we started in 2006. Below is our 2008 update of how the site works:


Editors for Curtis Brown, Orion and Bloomsbury - Each month the Top Five Opening Chapters in our peer review charts receive a free critique from editors for leading agents and publishers including Orion, Curtis Brown and Bloomsbury, who collectively represent authors like Rowling, Rankin, etc

The Random House House Group, publisher of writers such as John Grisham, read and comment on the YouWriteOn Top Ten each month between April and September 2008

The YouWriteOn site premise is fairly straightforward and devised by professional authors: you upload opening chapers or short stories and review and rate another member's story. Each review you complete earns you one back, and after five reviews you enter the YouWriteOn Top Ten charts. Successes for our first inaugural 'Book of the Year Awards' in 2006 include Caligula by Doug Jackson, which will be published in July 2008 in a six-figure deal with Random House; Johnny Mackintosh and the Spirit of London by Keith Mansfield which achieved a 3 book deal with Quercus, publisher of books such as The Tenderness of Wolves; and Bufflehead Sisters by Patricia J. DeLois, published by us through POD and named book of the year in her home state of Maine, currently finalising a 2 book deal with a leading publisher.

Thanks for your feedback, and we welcome anyone who may wish to take a look.
 
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YouWriteOn

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A message to Absolute Write - be less partisan & more objective

Everybody's looking for a shortcut. Even publishers.

- Victoria

Hi Victoria, This seems a little bit understated. Random House are the UK's largest publisher of writers like John Grisham, and we are pleased they are working with YouWriteOn.com to consider and feedback to highly rated writers.

When YouWriteOn first started, to be frank, you and a number of moderators made, and continued to make, a lot of unfounded negative speculation and what proved to be incorrect comments about the site within the space of its first months of operation, while we were establishing. Jenny Glatzer commented, "dooming the very best-rated book of the year out of thousands to a POD publication sounds like a punishment instead of an honor." Victoria commented, "Do you think that anyone will remember who those writers are, as a result of this news story, long enough to remember to buy their books when the books are actually released? ". Many of the writers referred to we share with Absolute Write. YouWriteOn book inaugural book award winners, finalists and other members in 2007 in fact went on to achieve book deals, including a six figure book deal, with leading publishers like Random House and a three book deal with The Tenderness of Wolves publisher Quercus. Other members received development assistance from the leading agents we work with, including the Christopher Little Literary Agency. Each deserving their success, and crediting YouWriteOn's hard working editors from publishers like Orion for help in their development.The award winner we published via POD was, thanks to their excellent writing, named the number one book of the year in Maine by their leading newspaper, and, far from being punished, went on to get an agent and two book deal from a leading publisher.

My question would be to you, and your fellow moderators, it that it is good to be speculative and inquisitive about a new venture, but how would you and your site writers and community feel if a larger, far older, site had applied some of the negative speculation and tone above to Absolute Write upon your start? It is bad practice on your part.

YouWriteOn has worked hard for its achievements, and so have the talented writers who took time to participate, and the editors for agents and publishers such as Orion, Curtis Brown and Random House who got involved to provide critiques for writers.

I welcome debate, always, and contrary opinion, some of which is always valuable even if hard to hear at the time. YouWriteOn itself has considered and acted upon critical feedback, and will continue to do so. At the same time, I think to give users a fully informed opinion you need to be a little more willing to give new ventures an opportunity and have a less partisan tone to remarks. If YouWriteOn's reputation had rested on the early general moderator speculation and tone alone, then we wouldn't have thrived and been able to give the many writers we have assisted the help their excellent writing deserved, including, as mentioned, the writers who came to us from you. I have to say we are pleased that yours and Jenny's speculation was wrong, and that the site's members achieved literary agent representation and publication with leading publishers. This is down to the site writers who invest so much time in developing writing, with assistance from the site's literary professionals.

Do we feel inclined to temper our comments on Absolute Write's treatment of a fledging site? No. Do we doubt that Absolute Write does some sterling work for writers itself, including with valuable information for writers. No again. You have to consider though, to fully inform users, that you can't become partisan against a site. A continued supply of negative speculation developed as we first started to establish ourselves, and when the writers, and the site, do achieve considerable success you can either hear an Absolute Write moderator pin-drop, or the comment verges on the rather understated and uninspired, "Everybody's looking for a shortcut. Even publishers" when the UK's largest publisher becomes involved with the site.

Sometimes, we suggest, in order to ensure the balance you need to keep to provide good information for writers, you need to look critically at yourselves as well. That said, we wish all writers success as ever. What was at stake behind this was not the importance of YouWriteOn, but the importance of a community of budding writers just like on Absolute Write, just starting off. We would much rather be continuing to concentrate on assisting writers such writers, and that's what we'll be off to continue to do today. We hope Absolute Write will be less partisan in future, the tone in this thread has been an example that you are really not serving the writing communities interests if you continue to fail to do so in future.

Ted
 
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