The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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James D. Macdonald

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What happens to this thread then is we pull off the sticky pin and it sinks to the bottom of the board while the next scam rises to the top.

There was Edit Ink. There was Dorothy Deering. There was Woodside. Now there's PublishAmerica and ST Literary. Who knows what the future will bring?

One thing is certain -- we won't run out of fast-talking charlatans who are ready to make their money off writers' dreams.
 

JennaGlatzer

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Jim! What a cheerful thought! :cry:

I think if PA is forced out of business, at the very least, we'll have 11,000 wiser authors who will know better next time about what to look out for. Potential writer advocates, every one of them.

The good guys are gonna outnumber the bad guys, and the Internet's a powerful tool... we'll keep spreading the word about what to watch out for, and pray that people are listening.
 

Sassenach

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True, Jim. Con persons will always be around.

As for the editing 'option': that's what printers do. Ergo...
 
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Ken Schneider

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If this is true, PA could put out hundreds of pieces of trash a day. Without regard to errors or content. I believe it would cut down on our creditability. This truly would be a sad day for us all.

I have always stood up for PA. When people would tell me how they had a bad reputation for putting out trash. But if they are going to publish anything, errors and all, maybe the naysayers were not so wrong after all.

What is the bottom line $$$$$?[end quote]

Someone is catching on.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Once you're out of the land of picture books (which I'm told PA no longer does), 9,000 words is a short work. One definition of short story puts the word count at 500-15,000 words. Another definition makes 7,500 words to 17,500 a novelette.

Are there people who put out individual short stories or novelettes in book form? Sure. Those are called "chapbooks." Some people send 'em instead of Christmas cards. (One such Christmas card, Winter Solstice, Camelot Station by Mike Ford, won an award and was published in a Year's Best anthology.) Some publishers and writers put chapbooks out as advertising give-aways. Sharon Lee and Steve Miller do that.

Chapbooks aren't terribly commercial, in a sell-em-at-the-bookstore kind of way, but what the hey, right? We're talking PA here.

Those poor kids who are working at PA -- someone who's in personnel, could you tell me -- is it okay to leave a couple of years blank on your resume?

==============

UPDATE:

So PublishAmerica is now offering an option to publish your book entirely unedited? Here's my question: How would anyone be able to tell?
 
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gcheney

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Hi All,

I just found this forum by happenstance but I would like to reply to a post where my name was sullied (okay only kidding) or at least was mentioned. The post wondered why would a NY Times best selling author with over 90 juvenile books traditionally published (that's me <blush>) go with PA?

Okay, here's my answer --- It's true I was on the NY Times Best Seller List but a looong time ago and ONLY for a week. And it's true that I have had over 90 books published. But the thing is that the book I offered PA had been hanging around my place for over two years and none of my former publishers seemed to want it. I thought it was one of my "better" written books however, and I wanted to get it out there by hook or crook. And so I signed with PA. I have NO expectations for the book other than someone may come upon it by chance (slim chance of that happening!) and may think it would be perfect for a YA TV movie. (I happen to think that it would be.)

In any event the pros and cons of PA seem to be highly subjective and so far I have no opinion either way. And so I shall wait and see.

__Jim

Jim:

Seems we've had similar experiences, though I haven't made the NYT list. I've published a lot of books with traditional publishers, and I had a manuscript that no one wanted. PA published it in accordance with their contract. I'm glad they did, and of all the critics of PA, no one has suggested a reason why my book shouldn't have been published. They seem to judge it by its publisher. They also seem terribly concerned about who gets to call themselves real writers or published writers or something. All I can say to those who think PA is a scam is, "Read the contract! You get what they say you get. What's the problem?"


Glenn Cheney
www.cheneybooks.com
 
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Richard

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The contract is terrible - that's the proble - and if you read back a few pages, you'll see all the unfulfilled promises, arrogant staffers, Stalinesque handling and cult-like techniques that have made them so loved wherever both ex-PA and non-affiliated writers gather.

None of the main posters on this forum are going to slam a book they haven't read just because you're being published by pondscum - that's missing the entire point of this thread. If you're happy with your contract, then congratulations, but that doesn't stop it being a hideous work of legalise from a company that could only be improved by a meteorite strike.
 

Ed Williams

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Uncle Jim, finally!!!!

A question from you that I can answer! I've been a Human Resources Director my whole working career - your question:

Those poor kids who are working at PA -- someone who's in personnel, could you tell me -- is it okay to leave a couple of years blank on your resume?
There's no easy answer to this. If you put a PA employment experience on your resume and they're ultimately exposed as a fraud, it could seriously damage your chances at future gainful employment. Simply put, most employers aren't jumping up and down to hire people who've worked for scam artists. All hiring is a percentage crap shoot, even if you check people out thoroughly beforehand you still don't know for 100% certainty what you've got until you hired them. Most employers would look at someone who'd worked for a bunko company as questionable (what did the person know, how much did they participate in it, etc). It's not an easy thing to overcome.

On the other hand, if you don't list the work experience, then make up some story about what you did during those two years and are caught in it later, you could lose your job for putting fraudulent information on the employment application (or for simply misrepresenting yourself).

My advice to current PA staffers - get the hell out, the sooner the better, and be honest when questioned by future employers. Honesty is always better, and I would simply tell my interviewer (if asked), that I was simply working as a *whatever*, and was not aware of the internal workings of the business. Then, I would cross my fingers and hope, hope, hope....
 
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Ken Schneider

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"Read the contract! You get what they say you get. What's the problem?[/QUOTE said:
Glenn, The problem is no one will see the book unless you walk around the world offering it like a curbside newspaper boy.
No promotion, no bookstore. You figure that part out, then you decide you'll have to order books to "get your name out". Mission accomplished for P.A. Vanity in reverse, you've just paid for the publishing process.
You'll end up offering it to your family friends and will get a few sales off the Internet where a billion other books are listed.
They give you what is offered in the contract, a book in your hands. You'll need to spend thousands of dollars to market it.
 

Susan Gable

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lindylou45 said:
This is so true. I've got two books ready to submit and two books I'm in the process of editing, but I'm terrified to submit them. I keep thinking what if my writing really does suck? What if PA is right and no one else will ever publish my work?
I don't think I'm the only ex-PA author that has those thoughts and I've joined a critique group and am getting some good, HONEST feedback on my work. I think, however, regardless of what I do, I'll always question my ability as a writer and wonder if, in my case, PA was right.

Let me say it again: You don't have to be an ex-PA author to feel this terror, this doubt, this sweat-inducing belief that your work totally sucks, and you're a fraud as a writer, and even though you've written and published X-number of books, it's all over now. There will never be another one.

Welcome to my world. <G>

Doubt-demons prey on writers regardless of whether or not they've been published before, or by whom.

It's the doubts that keep us striving to improve our craft, to make each book (hopefully <G>) better than the one before.

Susan G.
 

cwgranny

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If having a book printed and becoming a salesman makes you happy -- there is nothing in the world wrong with that. If you'd rather try to sell a book (that your publisher is trying to KEEP you from selling) than write your next book -- that's peachy too. If you feel completely comfortable with a printer who doesn't sell books (and Clopper is PROUD of the fact that they don't sell books -- he stressed the fact that over 1000 books sold no copies -- meaning PA doesn't sell books, the author does or no one does) -- then, well, I think that's a little strange but good for you. Different strokes and all.

But -- for me -- the bottom line is that I would not be involved with a company who has done some of the scummy things PA has done. If they offered me a $50,000 advance, a real editor they hired just for my book (since they don't have any right now), a competitive price, a return policy, and someone to actually get my book into stores -- I would still turn them down. They've done vile things to people. Things that made me sick at my stomach to see. And knowing they are comfortable with that kind of thing means I could NEVER be comfortable with them.

But I know that lots of people have no trouble associating with evil -- they just keep telling themselves that it's okay as long as it doesn't slime them. They're happy as long as they are the exception. After all, how many abusive men find wife after wife -- each new one thinking they will be the one that doesn't get abused.

I have to admit, though -- even though you don't want it. You have my sympathy for what you're doing to your career and your book and your reputation. On some level, I suspect you're ignorant, not evil.

gran
 

Lisa Y

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Let me say it again: You don't have to be an ex-PA author to feel this terror, this doubt, this sweat-inducing belief that your work totally sucks, and you're a fraud as a writer, and even though you've written and published X-number of books, it's all over now. There will never be another one.
I feel this too. My PA book was "published" in 2002 and it's only now that I'm starting to write again...at least I hope so.
 

JennaGlatzer

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Glenn, what's the problem? Er... we've just spent 14,000 posts discussing the problem. Try reading a bit more. I don't know about what they say in the contract, but what they say on their website is AMAZINGLY misleading. That's the tip of the iceberg. But hey, you don't care about that, right? Long as you're happy. All these other people here must just not have read their contracts. Their fault.

Jim, you're a lot more compassionate toward PA's employees than I am. I'm disgusted with every one of them. They know the deal. They choose to work there anyway. They see the outright ABUSE of authors, the lies, the broken dreams, the vindictiveness, and they choose to continue making their living by supporting this practice.

PA is not the only employer in Maryland. They could leave and work somewhere else-- ANYwhere else-- where they're not making money by deceiving people and crushing writers' hopes.

I know what it's like to work your way through college. I worked in a Laundromat, a liquor store, a maid service, and a country club. Great fun folding frat boys' clothes, cleaning people's bathrooms, and serving appetizers to men with cigars. But I'll be damned if it wasn't an honest living. My conscience was clean. I have no idea where all these people's consciences went, and how they're able to check their morals at the door.

YOU'RE HURTING PEOPLE. You're supporting lies. Get out and move on with your life before things get worse. And they will.
 

Ed Williams

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I think, too, in all sincerity...

....that PA doesn't publish books at all, they simply print them and sell them back to their authors. Publishing a book includes services like editing, marketing, placement, and all the other things that cause a book to sit up on a bookstore shelf and have the chance of being purchased by customers. Saying a PA book is "published" is simply not true, and is yet another lie that PA uses to enlist new authors...
 

WhisperingBard

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Hey, Jenna, just how many of those little green squares can one person have?? :D

I know what it's like to work your way through college. I worked in a Laundromat, a liquor store, a maid service, and a country club. Great fun folding frat boys' clothes, cleaning people's bathrooms, and serving appetizers to men with cigars. But I'll be damned if it wasn't an honest living. My conscience was clean. I have no idea where all these people's consciences went, and how they're able to check their morals at the door.
All I can say is, "Bravo."
 

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JennaGlatzer said:
The good guys are gonna outnumber the bad guys, and the Internet's a powerful tool... we'll keep spreading the word about what to watch out for, and pray that people are listening.

Actually, we already outnumber the bad guys. It's just a matter of getting the word out to those writers who don't know enough about who to trust in the publishing industry.

With that in mind, I ask every writer to do the right thing. Post a warning on your web site to new writers on what to avoid or place a link there that will take new writers to sites with warnings. Help spread the word. Make our industry better for them and you. Let's not give the crooks anywhere to hide among our businesses.
 

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Diana Hignutt said:
To the Employees of Publish America:

Unfortunately, your youthful ignorance will only protect you so long once the lawsuits and indictments start flying.

Actually, it won't really protect you unless you're among the first to turn state's evidence and testify against PA. Otherwise, you'll be sitting behind the defendant's table with Larry, Willem, Miranda, and Janet. Do you really trust any of them not to leave you holding as much of the bag as possible?
 

James D. Macdonald

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I see the editors at PA more as victims than as perpetrators. I think they're good-faith employees who do what they're told and believe the lies.

Do you remember the editor who had the LiveJournal? That was about a year ago, IIRC.

Again IIRC she'd been working in a furniture store when she saw an ad in the local Pennysaver looking for editors. She'd always wanted to work with books, so she answered the ad and got hired.

She truly believed that she was helping deserving authors who'd been unfairly overlooked by the "big guys." She believed that she was doing good.

Was she a competent editor? Probably not. She'd had no experience. Was she learning anything about how to work in publishing that she could take to another publisher? No. She was being trained to do things that she'd have to unlearn later, and she wasn't getting a credit she could use on her resume if she ever tried to get a job with a real publisher.

But it took her quite a while before she suddenly realized -- you know what? These books suck. That was about the point where news of the existence of the LJ got here.

I read the entire thing that night. Which was good -- it was gone the next morning. Erased. (And to think -- Larry claims that a "junior staffer" looks over here once a year or so and finds "nothing new." You're reading this right now, aren't you, Larry?)

The point was -- PA editors are fed the same line as the authors. And they believe it.

I'm told that the editors work in a building with no voice telephones, to make sure that they can never talk directly with any of their authors. Everything goes through e-mail, and Miranda monitors the e-mail. Heaven help 'em if someone has a medical problem and they have to call the paramedics, or if the place catches on fire. Maybe someone would be carrying a personal cell phone.

So I don't blame the editors much. They're young, inexperienced, vulnerable, and gullible. I think that most of them move on as soon as they wise up.

The Author Insult Team, on the other hand ....

(I think that the new Print Unedited option means that a) they've noticed that their books sell exactly as well whether they're "edited" or not, and b) they're planning to cut staff to save money. Hard times in Frederick? As long as they offer what they call editing as an option, they'll skate on their "traditional publisher" story, just like they're skating on their "returnable Independence Books" story.)

Have y'all read the stories of the staffers who were working for Commonwealth?

And back to Atlanta Nights -- here's the story of a sting against Edit Ink.
 

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gcheney said:
All I can say to those who think PA is a scam is, "Read the contract! You get what they say you get. What's the problem?"

Glenn, all I can say is I hope you're being sarcastic about what PA offers and not shilling for them. If you're helping PA defraud so many authors, then you're not part of the solution and belong behind the defendant's table with Larry, Willem, Miranda, and Janet.
 

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Ed Williams said:
A question from you that I can answer! I've been a Human Resources Director my whole working career - your question:

There's no easy answer to this.

On the other hand, if you don't list the work experience, then make up some story about what you did during those two years and are caught in it later, you could lose your job for putting fraudulent information on the employment application (or for simply misrepresenting yourself).

You're very right about that. However, there are a few exceptions that might apply. For instance, if any of the PA employees are still in college, they could just list the time as being in college. A lot of employers don't want to know about part-time employment, especially while attending college. I've also had a lot of HR people tell me not to list any other part-time employment when filling out an application unless it's applicable to what they are hiring for.

But your advice is still correct.

To the PA employees, do you really want to take a chance with your future employment opportunitites? If not, then get out now and tell your co-workers the truth about their employer. Encourage them to walk out with you.
 

James D. Macdonald

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DaveKuzminski said:
Glenn, all I can say is I hope you're being sarcastic about what PA offers and not shilling for them. If you're helping PA defraud so many authors, then you're not part of the solution and belong behind the defendant's table with Larry, Willem, Miranda, and Janet.

I think Glenn is being entirely sincere about what he says about "reading the contract" and all. Any number of other PA authors have arrived here to make a first post that's almost identical.

Here's Glenn's post over at Writers.net.

It's a known stage in the progress of a PA author. Give him time.
 
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