Do you worry about Political Correctness ...

*Reads thread.

Glances at WIP.

Realises she could be hung, drawn and quartered.

Decides she couldn't give a fuck.*





Why?

Because it's my CHARACTERS not me that are speaking. If they are racist, homophobic, sexist and generally the most non-PC of people, well, that's who the CHARACTER is.

I don't worry about being 'PC' if it's not in the nature of the characters. Beyond that, if someone is really setting out to take offence, then they will always find a way to do it.

Thomas Vail said:

Just because you've come up with your own completely fictional, internally justified setting doesn't make it any less problamatic if every female character you create can only be a damsel in distress or sex object. Changing the era of a book to the 1930s or 40s, or the 1850s, or whenever, doesn't allow you to escape being called out if you depict black characters as all being simple-minded, fried-watermelon-loving sneak -thieves, or whatever particular stereotype the narrative has that type of character automatically embody.

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I tend to think books like that, if they manage to get published, will sink to their own level in terms of sales.

I also think a writer ought to be able to write anything s/he pleases, even if it offends everyone. We don't, after all, have to buy it or read it.

My WIP is the kind of thing I wouldn't be surprised to see plastered on the front page of the Daily Mail with a headline involving the word "DISGUSTING".
That, or to see it prompt a very concerned Holly Willoughby on This Morning.

Jhaewyrmend said:

... when writing? I must admit, I'm overtired of PC'ism, but sometimes I wonder well heck if I write this character like this, I'm going to irk some people, but then I think no wait, this is the character, that's just who they are regardless of it being insensitive or whatever.

How much should you, or should you at all, worry about offending groups or any certain ethnicity by having a character that's a bit like the generalities of any particular group or ethnicity?

I almost feel like this is one of those landmine questions that going to explode the minute you walk within five feet of it, but I really don't intend it to be. I just really want to honestly know if you as a writer take the 'feelings' of any group into consideration when you create a character in your world that's actually a part of a very real world (namely ours)?

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I'm actually writing a memoir and I'm struggling with this, too.

My writing voice tends to be pretty un-PC and campy.

I guess the thing is, since I'm writing from my perspective, I worry that anything offensive will be attributed to my actual feelings. But I'm confident that if I couch them properly in a humorous context, I should be OK. It also helps to be an equal opportunity offender. Furthermore, even though it's memoir, I still think there is an element of performance of different facets to your character, even if dark and fleeting ones.

As others have said, I would worry less about being offensive and more about being cliche and relying too much of stereotypes.

I also use some offensive statements satirically in my memoir. I write things that are offensive but common attitudes and do so ironically.

One thing I am struggling with is the word "retard." I volunteered hundreds of hours with mentally handicapped patients and almost never ever say the R-word in my actual life. But there's one scene where I was frustrated about something else going on at the time and it just seems deliciously offensive and ironic to use the R-word in griping about the conundrum. I'm hoping that I can pull it off in a way that's satirical and shows that I'm simply being the devil's advocate for a fleeting moment and not actually prejudiced.

There's another scene where I sort of make a black joke about this black girl who was awful to me. I'm still trying to finesse it in such a way that I arouse controversy and make it provocative without being unjustly offensive. I think the trick here is making sure I limit it to her and not make a broad generalization.

Finally, I am a gay feminist, but I include some slightly misogynist language at times and tease lesbians in a couple instances. I'm hoping my readers are intelligent enough to discern the irony.

And of course it always helps to balance things out by making fun of white, straight, rich men a lot to balance it out. It also helps if you're (like me) biracial and queer and have been called every insult imaginable by literally every demographic of the human species.

You know, it's odd that a lot of this discussion focuses on fear of characters saying "un-PC" things.

I've rarely seen anyone attack an author because the characters were not PC. I mean, sure, some people can't handle Mark Twain's characters using the n-word, but other than that, most readers can distinguish between a character POV and an author POV.

Let's contrast Mark Twain with Margaret Mitchell. Twain clearly thought slavery and dehumanization of black people was wrong, even if he might not have been completely egalitarian by 21st century standards.

Margaret Mitchell, on the other hand - well, I love Gone With the Wind, but boy howdy, is that book racist! Not because the characters are racist (they're Southern slave owners, duh), but because the author herself gets up on a soapbox and rants in long expository passages about how evil the Yankees were in ending slavery and how unintelligent and incapable black people were without white people to tell them what to do.

There isn't much inference needed - the author's attitude is quite evident right there on the page.

Not all racist or sexist authors are so obvious, but even without Mitchell's third-person narration, one might have drawn certain conclusions by the fact that every one of her black characters is described as "ape-like," speaks with a childish, almost unintelligible patois, and falls apart whenever left to make a decision for themselves.

If you write one black character who's like that, people might be offended, but you could still convince readers that this isn't a statement about what the author thinks all black people are like. But if all your black characters are like that, well...

shaldna said:

Because it's my CHARACTERS not me that are speaking. If they are racist, homophobic, sexist and generally the most non-PC of people, well, that's who the CHARACTER is.

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That's not true.

That's how you chose to write them, but that's fine. A protagonist can be sexist without it being an issue. Flawed characters are generally more nuanced and interesting. A villain can be a fat bastard without it causing problems, because it would be weird if antagonists didn't come in all types. Where it falls apart and starts becoming a problem of political correctness is when obesity is shorthand for 'bad guy,' and where a character's sexism is supported by the authorial voice.

The Margaret Mitchell example above is a good one. It's a good book despite the very unfortunate, very much unexamined assumptions of the author herself.

Jhaewyrmend said:

No, I'm not wanting to be an a*hole. No, I'm not looking for justification to not have to care about any group or anything like that in my writing. My father thinks I'm 'too sensitive' because I'm not a hater like him. My question has nothing to do with hate of ANYONE! Or trying to

What I am writing right now involves two people (two deeply flawed people with their own deeply held issues), and two people only for a whole third of the book and I'm inquiring about how to make them authentic people without it being unrealistic but at the same time not wanting to seem stereotypical. Yes, these two people are of different ethnicities, they don't like each other, or actually they've each heard office gossip / rumors about each other. They've been thrown into a cataclysmic event and are now dependent on one another. They either work together or die! Work together or die.

This is why I ask my question. I'm not asking for a way to justify making racist characters. I'm asking if when you as a writer create a character, how close to real life (generally speaking) do you make them?

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I hope my characters come across as believable. Real life has no bearing other than what it takes to get a reader to sympathize, that is, put themselves in the character's shoes, or head, or whatever.
When it comes to plot, however, the more you touch on social issues the better, in my opinion.This is where you hold reality up and show people their fear and ignorance.

That's not true.

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However it is really easy to mistake what the narrator says with what the author thinks (more so in first person). They may be the same, (probably in Mitchell's case frex, but it's been a while since I read the book sooo....) but just as easily may not. And you won;t know which are which unless you meet the author and ask them

Several times I have been taken to task for my character being an authorial insert. Only by people who think I'm a guy though. I am not my characters, and they speak their words not mine. I try to ensure there is separation between the two, but in deep POV, everything they write is from their POV. And that's how I like it. I write in order to experience other perspectives from the inside -- I put myself in their shoes, pretend what it is like to be like them, not me.


But! But as a reader, I know it's really easy to fall into the "the character said X so the author must think that too" trap. Because you identify with a character or an author' works, you feel you know them a little bit.

I think perhaps you might (MIGHT!) be able to to say extrapolate something from say a body of work - if in ten books all the women are screaming shrews and all the men are either Manly Men or Villains, then maybe you can tell something. From one book/series? One character?

One of my fave authors is well known for dealing very well is social issues -- gender, race etc, and I always got the impression he was friendly and..... I have heard from more than one person who're in a position to know, he used to be an utter arse to everyone.

TL;DR -- you just can't tell from reading the book (in most cases at least) because you don't know if that's how I'm writing my characters, or not. Maybe they aren't anything like me, maybe they are cunningly inserted mouthpieces. If well done, you will never know (If badly done yes it may be obvious)

Amadan said:

Not all racist or sexist authors are so obvious, but even without Mitchell's third-person narration, one might have drawn certain conclusions by the fact that every one of her black characters is described as "ape-like," speaks with a childish, almost unintelligible patois, and falls apart whenever left to make a decision for themselves.

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Yeah, I just checked the scene where Scarlett meets Big Sam and the other field hands who are being sent to dig trenches for the army. The field hands "bellow" with laughter and "caper in delight" at meeting her, shaking her hand with their "huge black paws". It's like they're animals which learned to speak broken English.

That's still my favorite novel, but... wince.

Thomas Vail said:

That's not true.

That's how you chose to write them, but that's fine. A protagonist can be sexist without it being an issue. Flawed characters are generally more nuanced and interesting. A villain can be a fat bastard without it causing problems, because it would be weird if antagonists didn't come in all types. Where it falls apart and starts becoming a problem of political correctness is when obesity is shorthand for 'bad guy,' and where a character's sexism is supported by the authorial voice.

The Margaret Mitchell example above is a good one. It's a good book despite the very unfortunate, very much unexamined assumptions of the author herself.

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except I don't think Shaldna ever said she was using fat, or sexist, or anything else as one-dimensional shorthand, so you can't really call her post untrue.

Thomas Vail said:

That's not true.

That's how you chose to write them, but that's fine. A protagonist can be sexist without it being an issue. Flawed characters are generally more nuanced and interesting. A villain can be a fat bastard without it causing problems, because it would be weird if antagonists didn't come in all types. Where it falls apart and starts becoming a problem of political correctness is when obesity is shorthand for 'bad guy,' and where a character's sexism is supported by the authorial voice.

The Margaret Mitchell example above is a good one. It's a good book despite the very unfortunate, very much unexamined assumptions of the author herself.

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I would argue that Gone With The Wind is a great story because of the integrity with which the author's views are presented through out the book. The characters are credible because of it. It is still a great story. It will be read long after a lot of spin driven PC fiction has faded into some long forgotten corner of the cloud.

Fitch said:

I would argue that Gone With The Wind is a great story because of the integrity with which the author's views are presented through out the book. The characters are credible because of it. It is still a great story. It will be read long after a lot of spin driven PC fiction has faded into some long forgotten corner of the cloud.

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It is a great story, but I'm not sure I'd call Prissy the most credible character...

Also, if you want to use terms like "spin," I'd say Margaret Mitchell was doing plenty of it.

Amadan said:

You know, it's odd that a lot of this discussion focuses on fear of characters saying "un-PC" things.

I've rarely seen anyone attack an author because the characters were not PC. I mean, sure, some people can't handle Mark Twain's characters using the n-word, but other than that, most readers can distinguish between a character POV and an author POV.

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This.

Amadan said:

Let's contrast Mark Twain with Margaret Mitchell. Twain clearly thought slavery and dehumanization of black people was wrong, even if he might not have been completely egalitarian by 21st century standards.

Margaret Mitchell, on the other hand - well, I love Gone With the Wind, but boy howdy, is that book racist! Not because the characters are racist (they're Southern slave owners, duh), but because the author herself gets up on a soapbox and rants in long expository passages about how evil the Yankees were in ending slavery and how unintelligent and incapable black people were without white people to tell them what to do.

There isn't much inference needed - the author's attitude is quite evident right there on the page.

Not all racist or sexist authors are so obvious, but even without Mitchell's third-person narration, one might have drawn certain conclusions by the fact that every one of her black characters is described as "ape-like," speaks with a childish, almost unintelligible patois, and falls apart whenever left to make a decision for themselves.

If you write one black character who's like that, people might be offended, but you could still convince readers that this isn't a statement about what the author thinks all black people are like. But if all your black characters are like that, well...

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And this.

When I find something cringe worthy, it's because it sounds (to me) as if it's the author who thinks that members of group X, Y, or Z are lesser human beings (or in some cases, not worthy of mentioning at all), not because some of their characters, or even the society the story takes place in, might be less that "PC" by modern standards.

Whether or not I can stomach a book that has less overt racism, sexism, ageism, ableism or whatever? That's going to stem from my personal stew of experience and outlook, and yes, my taste. If I say I don't like a book because I'm sick of stories that contain certain elements I find bothersome, or if I say I'm tired of stories that lack certain elements I like (such as relatable and interesting characters who aren't all white, straight males), I'm not saying it because I'm checking some "PC scorecard." I'm expressing an opinion about what I personally like in a story.

And we aren't all going to agree about what crosses the line that makes something unreadable/unenjoyable to us either.

Fitch said:

I would argue that Gone With The Wind is a great story because of the integrity with which the author's views are presented through out the book. The characters are credible because of it. It is still a great story. It will be read long after a lot of spin driven PC fiction has faded into some long forgotten corner of the cloud.

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Can you give an example of "spin-driven" PC fiction, please? Because without some clarification, it sounds as if you're saying that novels where people who aren't white are presented as something other than racist caricatures is destined to be forgotten. Which sounds as if you're saying racism is based on something real and authentic and will win the day in the end (and that this would be a good thing).

hearosvoice said:

There's another scene where I sort of make a black joke about this black girl who was awful to me. I'm still trying to finesse it in such a way that I arouse controversy and make it provocative without being unjustly offensive. I think the trick here is making sure I limit it to her and not make a broad generalization.

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So you're resorting to joking about her race rather than something else? You mentioned it as a black joke but not wanting it to be a broad generalization. If it's not the latter, how can it be the former? How about focusing on how she treated you bad without looking at her race because, honestly, you'll drown in the waters you created.

If you want to share the joke, feel free to PM me.

Perception

Kashmirgirl1976 said:

So you're resorting to joking about her race rather than something else? You mentioned it as a black joke but not wanting it to be a broad generalization. If it's not the latter, how can it be the former? How about focusing on how she treated you bad without looking at her race because, honestly, you'll drown in the waters you created.

If you want to share the joke, feel free to PM me.

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Perception is different. At the term "black joke," "I" assumed the definition as <dark, broody, AKA Batman is the Dark Knight.>

I did not even thick it referred to a "black person" joke. On re-reading, I am still not sure which way the poster intended.


But............what difference does it make? Someone earlier said if someone wants to be offended, they will find a way. I firmly believe this to be true. Actually, I have seen it many times.

Just my opinion. No greater meaning or connotations.

I don't think I've ever picked up a book thinking, "I hope this will offend me, because darn it, I like being offended."

I have, however, read some things where I felt gobsmacked by something that was pretty negative or inaccurate, as if the author were deliberately slinging mud on me or another group of people. I've also read things where I didn't feel offended, but I still found certain things bothersome, inaccurate, or disrespectful, or I felt that something was missing that I would have liked to have seen. Maybe it wasn't enough to ruin the book for me, but it diminished my pleasure in said book somewhat.

Does this mean the author should have written their book differently, just to please me (and anyone else with my tastes or sensibilities)? Of course, not. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong or overly sensitive for mentioning my disappointment or misgivings when I talk about the book to others or review it either.

Roxxsmom said:

Does this mean the author should have written their book differently, just to please me (and anyone else with my tastes or sensibilities)? Of course, not. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong or overly sensitive for mentioning my disappointment or misgivings when I talk about the book to others or review it either.

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I think this is the crux

Blatant offensiveness aside, there are many areas where -- frex -- me and Roxxmom may differ in what we see as problematic, even though we tend to broadly agree on what is generally "ugh" to us in books.


When it gets past the obvious, down to the subtle and open to interpretation, it comes down to whether the individual reading it has issues with it -- and sometimes we can enjoy stuff even if it has some issues.

Thomas Vail said:

That's not true.

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Not entirely sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that because I might write a homophobic/racist/sexist character that I, as the writer, must also by default be that too?

The key to me is honesty, and truth. Do you approach the craft with a view of "Hmmm, better not write that, it might offend some folks."? If so, there is a good chance you've possibly gone off the rails on your story. I have a character I'm writing now. He is a racist, homophobic misogynist who can't help but use the N word or any number of other taboo words. Why? Because that is who the character is. I care how I am perceived, yes. But I care a lot more about how my characters are perceived. That is, if they are really racist, homophobic, etc., I am going to present that as clearly as I know how, and it will likely make you squirm. If so, good. I have done my job. You will wind up hating the character as much as the good guys who are trying to catch him.

On the other hand, if I hold a contemptuous attitude towards a certain subclass, and approach my writing with attempts to allow that attitude to permeate the book, broadcasting my ownviews, so to speak, I have utterly failed as a writer and I truly need to pack it up and never write again. A character can be anything you want, so long as he or she is true. But a book which serves as a thinly-veiled attempt to promote an ideology, any ideology, is simply political doggerel.

Roxxsmom said:

I don't think I've ever picked up a book thinking, "I hope this will offend me, because darn it, I like being offended."

I have, however, read some things where I felt gobsmacked by something that was pretty negative or inaccurate, as if the author were deliberately slinging mud on me or another group of people. I've also read things where I didn't feel offended, but I still found certain things bothersome, inaccurate, or disrespectful, or I felt that something was missing that I would have liked to have seen. Maybe it wasn't enough to ruin the book for me, but it diminished my pleasure in said book somewhat.

Does this mean the author should have written their book differently, just to please me (and anyone else with my tastes or sensibilities)? Of course, not. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong or overly sensitive for mentioning my disappointment or misgivings when I talk about the book to others or review it either.

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An excellent sentiment, although I think we've gotten far afield from the original question (I've certainly helped) of, 'Do you worry about political correctness when writing?'

For me, the answer is 'no,' but I'm also perfectly willing to consider that even in good faith, I might've gone horribly awry somewhere I didn't mean to. Especially if you're writing real world people unlike yourself, you have to be willing to consider that you might have assumptions that need to be questioned.

Dances With Words said:

On the other hand, if I hold a contemptuous attitude towards a certain subclass, and approach my writing with attempts to allow that attitude to permeate the book, broadcasting my ownviews, so to speak, I have utterly failed as a writer and I truly need to pack it up and never write again. A character can be anything you want, so long as he or she is true.

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Another good point, and as has already been mentioned, people can rather easily confuse the views of the character with that of the author. You shouldn't be afraid of making nuanced or objectionable characters but you just have to be self-aware about how you're using them, or what unfortunate implications you might accidentally be piling up.

Thomas Vail said:

An excellent sentiment, although I think we've gotten far afield from the original question (I've certainly helped) of, 'Do you worry about political correctness when writing?'

For me, the answer is 'no,' but I'm also perfectly willing to consider that even in good faith, I might've gone horribly awry somewhere I didn't mean to. Especially if you're writing real world people unlike yourself, you have to be willing to consider that you might have assumptions that need to be questioned.

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My answer to the original question is also no, because I don't believe political correctness exists except as a straw man used by people who resent like hell that the mindless norms they're comfortable with are no longer *quite* as universally accepted by all. Or maybe they just resent that people who used to suck it up quietly sometimes feel confident enough to speak up about perceived sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism etc. in books.

However, to those people, my attempting to be mindful about how I portray people who have had different life experiences than I have, especially when they've been traditionally underrepresented in literature, IS that horrible, evil thing known as "political correctness." I think there is a place between blithely following all the stereotypes and beliefs about "The Way Things and People Are" we've subconsciously assimilated in our lives, and mindlessly checking boxes to meet some quota of inclusiveness in our stories (if anyone really does the latter).

But at some point, we end up in an impasse between people who believe that writing should be an "entirely go with the flow" experience, and any conscious effort to monitor what you put on the page will make your writing forced and uninspiring, and the people who believe that everything about writing is a rigidly controlled, intellectual process that you can engineer at will.

I suspect I'm somewhere in between. I need to tell the stories and incorporate the themes that inspire me personally, and I can only force things so far. But I also think I can't grow as a writer, storyteller, or human being without stepping at least a little bit out of my own default comfort zone and questioning some of my own assumptions either. I'm sure I'll screw up, and hopefully when this happens, I'll be able to listen and learn.

Thomas Vail said:

For me, the answer is 'no,' but I'm also perfectly willing to consider that even in good faith, I might've gone horribly awry somewhere I didn't mean to. Especially if you're writing real world people unlike yourself, you have to be willing to consider that you might have assumptions that need to be questioned.

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Lawks yes, though I think it's helpful to remember there probably isn't a person alive who hasn't/doesn't make assumptions that need to be questioned (some assumptions are worse than others, obviously!).

The willingness to do that questioning, that's vital imo

Roxxsmom said:

My answer to the original question is also no, because I don't believe political correctness exists except as a straw man used by people who resent like hell that the mindless norms they're comfortable with are no longer *quite* as universally accepted by all. Or maybe they just resent that people who used to suck it up quietly sometimes feel confident enough to speak up about perceived sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism etc. in books.

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I find it quite amusing that I read this post only a few minutes after this comic first popped up on my facebook feed.

Mark Twain, mentioned upstream.

Recent "campaign" to alter his novel Huck Finn and remove objectionable words.

A PC issue many (not necessarily including me) object to.