Problem sentence that starts with participle phrase

pellshek

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Hi all,

The context is that a guy has just walked into a room and is looking around.

Sentence 1: Leaning against the far wall he saw a yellow sign.

Sentence 2: Leaning against the far wall, he saw a yellow sign.

I believe Sentence 2 means it's the man leaning against the wall, whereas in Sentence 1 it's the sign leaning against the wall (which is the meaning I want).

My understanding of the rule here is that present participle phrases at the start of a sentence require a comma to separate them from main clause of the sentence, and the effect of that comma is to connect the PPP (as a modifier) to the nearest noun/pronoun (in sentence 2, the man/he).

But without the comma I believe the sentence sort of runs straight through and the PPP can (?) or definitively does (?) refer to the sign.

I have been unable to find a definitive answer at OWL. They mention what happens to PPP's with the comma, but not what happens without the comma.

So that's issue 1.

A secondary concern, on top of proper grammar, is whether the reader needs a double-take to get meaning even with the grammatically correct one. If meaning is unclear, then it's kinda moot that it's grammatically correct.

.............

Fwiw, you might say why not go with:

Sentence 3: He saw a yellow sign leaning against the far wall......OR.....There was a yellow sign leaning against the far wall.

Problem here is one of emphasis (to my ear anyway) - the focus of these sentences is more on the wall rather than the sign or the seeing. It just feels slightly wrong in the context of surrounding sentences, because the next sentence describes the sign (it's a thrilling read!!) and I need the emphasis to be on it in this preceding sentence.
 
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King Neptune

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So he walked into a room and saw what was on the right on the left and on the far side of the room? If that is more or less how you set it up, then I think you could just recount what he saw.
Leaning against the far wall, there was a yellow sign.
OR
There was a yellow sign leaning against the far wall.

I assume that the yellowness is important.
 

stephenf

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hi
My very basic understanding of English is ...the best way to write a sentence is in the form of " subject ,verb, object " . So it's, yellow sign ,leaning against, the wall
 
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Maryn

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pellshek, I think the sentence as you have it constructed fails without regard to the comma. The closest noun or pronoun to the present participle phrase is what's being described. So with Leaning against the far wall[,] he saw a yellow sign the thing that's leaning against the wall is him.

So it requires restructuring. King Neptune offers two suggestions which work, although I'm not a big fan of there was if I can find something punchier.

There's nothing wrong with A yellow sign leaned against the wall. If you are in the POV of "he," sharing what he experiences, feels, and thinks as it's happening, the reader will understand he knows the sign is leaning there because he saw it. There's no need to filter it by telling us which of his five senses he used to obtain the information.

Maryn, who has a yellow sign leaning against the wall in her basement
 

pellshek

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So he walked into a room and saw what was on the right on the left and on the far side of the room? If that is more or less how you set it up, then I think you could just recount what he saw.
Leaning against the far wall, there was a yellow sign.
OR
There was a yellow sign leaning against the far wall.

I assume that the yellowness is important.


Hi KN,

Actually, no, the character hadn't looked around the room yet, which is why I needed the "saw" verb in the problem sentence. But now that you mention it, your solution is more elegant - I'll add a "He looked around" to establish the seeing/looking bit before, and we'll then be in his clear POV when the sign is mentioned. Thanks.

(@ Maryn: Thanks, you make a similar point as KN, and I think you're both spot on.)

Can I clarify why we need the comma in your first sentence? Is it because the PPP is acting as an introductory phrase of 5+ words? Would you have a comma in this version of 4 words: "Leaning against the wall there was a yellow sign."?

...........

On your second suggested sentence, I thought about that one as per OP, but felt the emphasis was wrong, with too much weight on the wall, not enough sign.

..........

The sign is yellow because it's one of those you see in public spaces that warn about slippery floors. I think once you say the sign is yellow, readers know exactly what kind of sign you mean. The character uses it to block a door subsequently. I also have some metaphysical, symbolic mumbo-jumbo about the little stick man on the sign - slipping over, motion stripes under his feet, flailing arms - somehow foreshadowing the fate of my character. But I try to keep matters of overreaching pretension and hopeless overwriting between me, my MS and my maker.
 

King Neptune

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Why don't you just write down what happened when he looked into the room and worry about the exact wording later.
 

Bufty

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The biggest issue with these ..ing construction openings is that the reader does not know who or what the subject is until after he has read the action and is half way through the sentence, and that is totally ass-backwards.

Don't try and fiddle with it - scrap them both and write a proper sentence that shows clearly what you mean to say.
 

guttersquid

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You have several options, the best of which are probably:

Leaning against the far wall was a yellow sign.
A yellow sign leaned against the far wall.
Against the far wall leaned a yellow sign.

All are common sentence structures. Which flows best would be determined by the surrounding sentences.
 
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CatchVonnegut

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Another vote for simplicity. "A yellow sign was leaning against the far wall."
 

morngnstar

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I suggest, "Leaning against the far wall was a yellow sign." The only thing that's lost is that he saw it, which will probably become obvious very quickly when he reacts to it.
 

Chase

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Sentence 1: Leaning against the far wall he saw a yellow sign.

Sentence 2: Leaning against the far wall, he saw a yellow sign.

Maryn, et al, are correct that both examples above sentences indicate the same thing: "He" is leaning against the wall.

Others are equally correct that you need to re-work your sentence to produce the meaning you intend.

However, to focus on the punctuation of your examples as written, the only difference is the first without the comma is incorrect, and the second with the comma is correct:

Comma Rule Number 2: A comma is necessary to separate a long introductory element before a main clause. Rule 2 holds true for both simple and complex constructions:
Even though ignorant of our culture, we must always be kind to strangers. (Simple)
Since Constance is new to our company, all of us should strive to help her. (Complex)

It’s always correct to set off any introductory element with a comma, but a more modern lean toward fewer commas in novels has made the practice optional for shorter elements. Either is acceptable:
Later, you can join us for dessert.
Later you can join us for dessert.
 
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Jamesaritchie

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It doesn't work at all either way. I don't even have a clue what it means. Was a yellow sign leaning against the far wall or was the character leaning against the wall. Get the sentence in order put each part where it's supposed to be, and just say what it is you want to say.
 

pellshek

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Thanks everyone for input.

My key mistake here I think was having the "saw" verb as part of the problem sentence. Once that is removed - and made into a separate action in previous sentence - you're only left with the wall, the sign and a single active verb, and the sentence repairs itself.
 

Bufty

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It's easier and simpler and clearer to construct proper sentences that both give the constituent parts in their correct order and convey clearly what is meant.

Thanks everyone for input.

My key mistake here I think was having the "saw" verb as part of the problem sentence. Once that is removed - and made into a separate action in previous sentence - you're only left with the wall, the sign and a single active verb, and the sentence repairs itself.
 
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Cathy C

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The sign is yellow because it's one of those you see in public spaces that warn about slippery floors. I think once you say the sign is yellow, readers know exactly what kind of sign you mean.

A point of clarification on this part. Readers won't have a clue that the sign is a slippery floor type simply because it's yellow. There are any number of yellow signs out in shops and stores. Also, "leaning against the wall" gives the impression it's larger and the type of sign that normally hangs on the wall, as opposed to a floor stand that opens like a tripod.

Which are you intending it to be?
 

King Neptune

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If the sign is at all important, then Cathy's comment is important. I was thinking it was a yellow, road caution sign ("yield" or whatever), until you described it.
 

Bufty

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And in similar vein, if it's not important don't bother mentioning it at all.

If the sign is at all important, then Cathy's comment is important. I was thinking it was a yellow, road caution sign ("yield" or whatever), until you described it.
 

pellshek

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A point of clarification on this part. Readers won't have a clue that the sign is a slippery floor type simply because it's yellow. There are any number of yellow signs out in shops and stores. Also, "leaning against the wall" gives the impression it's larger and the type of sign that normally hangs on the wall, as opposed to a floor stand that opens like a tripod.

Which are you intending it to be?


Yes, point taken, but I think in context below it's clear enough.

We've already established he's in a shopping centre. He's now making his way towards the public toilets, where he's about to do something wicked. Here's the sequence:

The toilets were located at the far end of the first floor walkway, off a gloomy little alcove where nobody could be much bothered changing broken light bulbs or washing the floor.

He stepped into the alcove. It was quieter in here. He looked around. Leaning against the wall was a yellow sign, on it a little stick man with flailing arms, and motion stripes under his feet. CAUTION, the sign said.

He crossed the alcove and positioned himself behind a column in the far corner.
I'm still playing with the words (I really dislike the "..., on it..." construction and am looking to fix that, and I also dislike the repetition of "into" & "in" in first two sentences of para 2) but on your point I think the little stick man + yellow colour clarify meaning.

Re: the need for the sign in the first place, he uses it in a moment to block a door, so we do need it. Plus, the little slipping man is meant to be a little joke about how he's getting himself into bother.

Thanks for engaging.
 
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Bufty

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Context always helps with this type of question, which has gone way beyond the initial issue of using a participial phrase to open a sentence..

We don't know the context unless we're told, and explaining after the event to justify what you had in the first place is pretty useless.

There's nothing here you couldn't have worked out by yourself.
 
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pellshek

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Context always helps with this type of question, which has gone way beyond the initial issue of using a participial phrase to open a sentence..

We don't know the context unless we're told, and explaining after the event to justify what you had in the first place is pretty useless.

There's nothing here you couldn't have worked out by yourself.


Whoa. I couldn't have worked out my problem sentence without help. That's why I posted. And I only answered the other posters' point about the context of the sign in lieu of not replying to her at all, which surely would have been rude.

I very much appreciate people's input.
 

Bufty

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I know, and I know you appreciated our involvement- :Hug2: I'm just having a wee grump- :)

Whoa. I couldn't have worked out my problem sentence without help. That's why I posted. And I only answered the other posters' point about the context of the sign in lieu of not replying to her at all, which surely would have been rude.

I very much appreciate people's input.