Using Japanese terms in Fantasy aimed at an English speaking audience?

Nogetsune · Dec 18, 2014

As the title asks. Is it ok to use terms in a non-English language, in this case Japanese, in a story aimed at English speaking audiences? In particular, I want to use various Youkai from Japanese mythology and want to directly call them by their Japanese names. "Foxfolk" just doesn't have the same sound and connotation as "Kitsune" and so on. As a result, if at all possible I really want to directly use the Japanese names of these Youkai monsters. Even further, I don't want to have "wizards" and "clerics/priests" but instead use the arctypes of the "Onmyoji" "Kannushi" and "Miko" to fill similar roles, using those distinct Japanese terms to label them. However, I'm not sure if Japanese terms in a fantasy story would be too much of a turn off for English-speaking audiences?

Is there a "line in the sand" for just how much Japanese I can include and if so where is it drawn? Can I only get away with relatively well-known Japanese terms like ninja, samurai etc..? Or can I get into some more obscure Youkai names and stuff like the Onmyoji and Kannushi/Miko? Is using Japanese terms to describe traditional Japanese clothing articles that don't have an exact western equivalent ok as well?

Any thoughts/advice on how much Japanese is ok in a narrative written for English-speaking audiences would be great.

Also, if your wondering, the story using these terms would be set either directly in Japan or a secondary world based heavily on Japanese mythology, and the characters would in fact be Japanese rather then westerners.

Hoplite · Dec 18, 2014

Frequently historical novels feature words in the relevant setting's language, and it works fine. Steven Pressfield did this in Gates of Fire, and the reader catches on real quick what the Greek words mean, given the context their presented in.

Amadan · Dec 18, 2014

With Japanese, you have the advantage that a lot of Western readers (particularly in fantasy) are familiar with a fair amount of Japanese terminology. So no one will blink at "katana" or "sensei," for example.

Getting into more esoteric terms, I guess it depends on the degree to which the Japanese term conveys something that the English translation wouldn't. "Katana" does not just mean "sword," for example - it's a specific kind of sword. And using proper names for people and races seems appropriate - I would not refer to a fox as a kitsune, but referring to the magical race of fox-people as kitsune is pretty common.

But if the text gets cluttered up with a lot of "Youkai" and "Onmyoji" and "Kannushi," yeah, you probably are going to lose people.

I think a good rule of thumb is that any word you can't make clearly understandable in context, without having to explicitly explain what it means, would be a good candidate for translating.

Paramite Pie · Dec 18, 2014

I don't really watch/read Japanese media but I'm still familiar with the term "Kitsune" (no idea where I came across it - the only other Japanese terms I now are food-related). While I haven't come across the others, the archetypes seem manageable, a reader is hardly going to confuse "Kannushi" with "Miko".

With so many people watching Anime and playing Japanese games, I think there's a huge audience out there who will be familiar or at least interesting in learning these words. I think readers would prefer a strong Japanese flavour.

Now I have a craving for some tonkatsu.

mirandashell · Dec 18, 2014

And fantasy readers are used to dealing with non-English terms in the form of alien languages. I quite often use the swear words from Farscape, for instance.

I doubt it will be a problem.

Lillith1991 · Dec 18, 2014

The answer to your question is yes, yes it is fine and has been done plenty of times before. The story you're thinking of isn't a special little snowflake. Plenty of gamers, anime & manga nerds etc., they read. They read whatever interests them.

Take myself. I read manga and books, love Star Trek and Inuyasha. Beyond that, I read norse myths at 8, Anne Rice at 9 or 10. I'm not odd as far as geeks, which I assume are you're particular target audience will be, go in the grand scheme. I'm actually fairly normal.

onesecondglance · Dec 18, 2014

mirandashell said:
And fantasy readers are used to dealing with non-English terms in the form of alien languages. I quite often use the swear words from Farscape, for instance.

I doubt it will be a problem.

^ This. It's not like having unfamiliar terms in a book that the author will need to explain through context is an unusual concept in SF/F. This time you even have a headstart with anyone who's heard the words before.

Unimportant · Dec 18, 2014

As others have said, fantasy readers are well accustomed to learning new terms, frequently from made-up non-existent languages. (Tolkien, anyone?) And with manga so popular, you've got a head start with your readers since many of them will already be familiar with common Japanese terms.

As long as it can be understood from context, it'll be fine. "He wiped the blood from the blade of his katana" is enough to do the trick.

Write it, and run it through some beta readers. They'll tell you fast enough if they don't understand a term. But trust your readers to be smart enough to get it, for the most part.

Kaidonni · Dec 18, 2014

I believe another advantage is the phonology and syllable structure of Japanese words; with a number of exceptions, it has a very similar phonology to English, and the syllable structure makes the words very easy to pronounce for English speakers (except when you have terms like 'Watashiwa [name] desu' - I thought one added the vowel on the end!). Now, if for instance you were to use a language like Mandarin, you might run into more issues.

zanzjan · Dec 18, 2014

A quick look around the existing field of SFF will show many books that are already doing this, from Kij Johnson's excellent Foxwoman and Fudoki, to Jay Kristoff's Lotus War series.

Is this question for a work you're actually writing?

amergina · Dec 18, 2014

There have been plenty of fantasy novels that have mimicked Japanese culture, including using Japanese words to describe Japanese things.

What will sink your book is if you never write it. You can be 100% guaranteed that your book will fail if you never write it. It has no chance whatsoever of success if you don't write it.

So write it. And see what happens.

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 18, 2014

I think you'll be fine for most of those.

Onmyouji are a very specific kind of mage/priest/diviner, for example, so it makes sense to use the Japanese term. Miko might be better translated with the common "shrine maiden" or as "shaman", however. Kannushi are basically priests, and using the Japanese term seems unnecessary. Kitsune is probably fine to use in the Japanese, since it's short and well-known, and denotes a specific type of spirit.

I know these were a few just examples, but I think that they give enough of an idea of when using the original Japanese might be appropriate, and when a translation is probably more useful.

Mr Flibble · Dec 18, 2014

Make things clear in context (as noted above), you'll be good

I'm pretty sure that was the consensus for most, if not all, of your other threads about this/similar questions?

Write it.

ETA can think of an author using Japanese terms 30 years ago and no one batted a lid. So I do wonder, given all these questions you ask that are generally answered " read more in the genre to see how it is done" whether you do, in fact, read in the genre at all? If you are reading mostly anime frex this might not come up. But if you want to write a novel, read novels.

LOTLOF · Dec 18, 2014

Each time you use an unfamiliar word either explain its meaning or make it obvious through context. After that readers will get used to them.

zanzjan · Dec 18, 2014

Mr Flibble said:
I'm pretty sure that was the consensus for most, if not all, of your other threads about this/similar questions?

Write it.

*puts on mod hat*

As usual, Mr Flibble gets a bit more directly at the matter than I.

You start a LOT of threads that are variants of the format "Can I do x?" ("Will x work?", "Is there a market for x?" etc.)

Although x is usually something that's pretty easily determined to have been done successfully by at least a few authors, that's less important than that you ask this repeatedly, and it always end up with the same answer: write it.

An idea is NEVER going to be a story until someone makes it into a story. Writing is the process of planting that seed, doing the hard work to nurture and make it grow, and then seeing what blooms as a result. People here are very happy to help others, but at some point you've got to just pick a seed, grab your trowel, get down in the dirt and start doing the work yourself.

If you want to be a writer, you have to write.

It doesn't need to be the best idea -- it doesn't even need to ultimately be something you love, although its great when it is -- but you've got to start somewhere or you're just not ever going to get anywhere, and you're just feeding your own stagnation at the cost of the (extensive but not infinite) good will of people here. And people are starting to get frustrated with that, which no one wants to see.

So.. talk to us about what you ARE writing. Stop asking "will this work?" and move on to "hey, I made it work!" We really want to see you take that next step.

*takes off mod hat*

snafu1056 · Dec 18, 2014

I would assume that anyone drawn to this kind of material would probably already be a Japanophile. If not, they're at least interested in the culture. I dont think either of those groups would mind a lot of Japanese terminology.

The only thing you'll want to avoid is taking it for granted that the reader already knows this stuff. Stuff like monster names don't really have to be explained, but if the foreign term describes something important about a character (like occupation, social rank, etc) you'll definitely want to give an explanation. And if push comes to shove and you HAVE to use some English terms, and you dont want to use generic terms like "wizard" or "cleric", just make up your own terms based on the translations. I had a Chinese character once that held the title of "Court Gentleman for Exorcisms". Zhoujin Lang in Chinese. I didnt want to use the Chinese title, and "Court Gentleman for Exorcisms" was too wordy so I went with "Gentleman Exorcist". It conveyed what I needed it to convey and still kept the spirit of the original title. I think that can be a happy medium between totally foreign terms and boring English terms.

On a related note: http://www.theonion.com/articles/re...Marketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:NA:InFocus

Sage · Dec 18, 2014

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Onmyouji are a very specific kind of mage/priest/diviner, for example, so it makes sense to use the Japanese term. Miko might be better translated with the common "shrine maiden" or as "shaman", however. Kannushi are basically priests, and using the Japanese term seems unnecessary. Kitsune is probably fine to use in the Japanese, since it's short and well-known, and denotes a specific type of spirit.

I agree with this, and with the general rule. If the term is unique to Japanese, use it. For sure, you can use Kitsune as its own race, but don't call cats "neko" and stars "hoshi" just because you know the words (yeah, back when I read fanfic, I saw it a lot).

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 19, 2014

The great thing about writing is you can always revise.

Especially as regards using the Japanese terms. Write it with them, send it out to alpha or beta readers, or post a bit to SYW. Then you'll get reader responses on whether you've used too many Japanese terms or too few. Questions answered.

Thrasops · Dec 27, 2014

Nogetsune said:
As the title asks. Is it ok to use terms in a non-English language, in this case Japanese, in a story aimed at English speaking audiences? In particular, I want to use various Youkai from Japanese mythology and want to directly call them by their Japanese names. "Foxfolk" just doesn't have the same sound and connotation as "Kitsune" and so on. As a result, if at all possible I really want to directly use the Japanese names of these Youkai monsters. Even further, I don't want to have "wizards" and "clerics/priests" but instead use the arctypes of the "Onmyoji" "Kannushi" and "Miko" to fill similar roles, using those distinct Japanese terms to label them. However, I'm not sure if Japanese terms in a fantasy story would be too much of a turn off for English-speaking audiences?

Is there a "line in the sand" for just how much Japanese I can include and if so where is it drawn? Can I only get away with relatively well-known Japanese terms like ninja, samurai etc..? Or can I get into some more obscure Youkai names and stuff like the Onmyoji and Kannushi/Miko? Is using Japanese terms to describe traditional Japanese clothing articles that don't have an exact western equivalent ok as well?

Any thoughts/advice on how much Japanese is ok in a narrative written for English-speaking audiences would be great.

Also, if your wondering, the story using these terms would be set either directly in Japan or a secondary world based heavily on Japanese mythology, and the characters would in fact be Japanese rather then westerners.

As long as they are written in Romaji, I don't think Japanese terms and expressions are a problem at all, particularly if they are explained - I don't speak Japanese but I knew the meanings of all the words you listed simply from my own interest in Mythology. I definitely could not read katakana, kanji or hiragana characters though.

When you think about it, how many "made up" words are used in fantasy stories? A lot. If the reader can learn and remember them, they can read and remember Japanese in moderation. A great example of this is Shogun by James Clavell - in this book, John Blackthorne starts out knowing no Japanese but he learns basic words step by step and, more to the point, the reader is forced to learn along with him as the words are used without further explanation throughout the rest of the novel.

Twick · Dec 28, 2014

I'm going to take an opposite tack from some of the previous commentators. If your book is written in English, and describing a culture that is not Japanese (and, perhaps, a world that is not Earth), using Japanese terms for fantastical elements is going to sound a little pretentious at best, and at worst like anime fanfic.

Unless your readers are all conversant in the ways of anime and manga, calling a character a "miko" or "kannushi" is going to alienate them fast.

Altiv · Dec 28, 2014

I agree with the others. I don't think there will be a problem, as long as you can tell by the context who or what are you talking about and, as it was said before, if the name is unique to Japanese culture, you should use it (because calling a cat neko will sound odd). I've read a lot of books that make up words and names and never had any problems with it.

However, if you want to be sure it works, you should have some people reading your manuscript, so they can tell you if the name bothered them or not.

PeteMC · Dec 29, 2014

Liosse de Velishaf said:
The great thing about writing is you can always revise.

Especially as regards using the Japanese terms. Write it with them, send it out to alpha or beta readers, or post a bit to SYW. Then you'll get reader responses on whether you've used too many Japanese terms or too few. Questions answered.

Absolutely agree - just write it, you can always apply a bit of "find and replace" later if your beta readers don't like it.

Ken · Dec 29, 2014

A little goes a long way. Not to say you should do so. Just that anything you're trying to accomplish by including a lot can (setting a tone, etc) be achieved with less.

Now for a personal perspective. What would a post be w/o that?

When I used to read russian lit from the 1800's I was bombarded by french lingo. It was all the rage at the time to include it. Francais was chic! Well when I encountered the phrases I just sorta skimmed them; had no idea what they meant; deemed them quaint; and went on my merry way.

Sincerely, Ken

Mark Moore · Dec 30, 2014

I doubt it would be a problem. Heck, I'm basing one of my kingdoms in the fantasy world that I'm developing roughly on Japan and China, and I'm giving the locales and people names to match. I think most people would get "Oh, this is the Asia equivalent on this world" and wouldn't think much about it.

CrastersBabies · Dec 30, 2014

As long as you make it easy for the reader, I think you're good. I'm thinking of Firefly for some reason. They used a lot of Chinese words. Didn't know a lick of them, but I could guess a good number of the meanings.

Using Japanese terms in Fantasy aimed at an English speaking audience?

Nogetsune

Hoplite

Return of the Coffee Shield

Amadan

Paramite Pie

mirandashell

Lillith1991

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

onesecondglance

pretending to be awake

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.

Kaidonni

zanzjan

killin' all teh werds

amergina

Pittsburgh Strong

Liosse de Velishaf

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

LOTLOF

zanzjan

killin' all teh werds

snafu1056

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

Liosse de Velishaf

Thrasops

Twick

Altiv

Chasing the dragon...

PeteMC

@PeteMC666

Ken

Mark Moore

CrastersBabies

Burninator!