So. . . . that torture thingie.
- Thread starter Xelebes
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We have betrayed not only our own Constitution, our laws, the Geneva Convention, but our very basic principles and morality. There most be some accounting for this or we will have failed as civilized humans most spectacularly. A sad, sad day for the dream that was America. War Crimes Tribunal Now.
I talked about it in class, today, with my students. These kids are fifteen, sixteen years old. Told them everything I knew, tried to be as honest as possible and withheld my own opinion. These kids know about 9/11, the War on Terror, etc, and generally have a lot of love for the US.
It was an interesting and lively discussion. One boy thought torture was justified in certain circumstances. No one else did.
Wisdom of the crowd.
As for trying the people responsible in The Hague. Won't happen. The US isn't even a participant in the International Criminal Court. (Wikipedia)
It was an interesting and lively discussion. One boy thought torture was justified in certain circumstances. No one else did.
Wisdom of the crowd.
As for trying the people responsible in The Hague. Won't happen. The US isn't even a participant in the International Criminal Court. (Wikipedia)
Andreas_Montoya
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Bad things happen in war and radical Muslims declared war on the US long ago. The CIA lies about everything, they have for years. If they believed a captured combatant might have information, they tried to extract it, the same as the Iraqis did to Americans.
Marine Maj. Craig Berryman says a day hasn't passed in the last 12 years that he hasn't thought of how Iraqi soldiers tortured, kicked and starved him in 1991.
Iraqi guards broke Berryman's left leg, beat him repeatedly and threatened him with shooting and mutilation. A lighted cigarette was twisted into an open wound on his neck, and his requests for medical attention were ignored.
He lost 25 pounds in 37 days and caught a case of dysentery that lasted two years and is likely to cause him digestive tract problems the rest of his life.
He was among 16 Gulf War POWS that also filed reports.
I suppose it's nicer just to stick to napalm than to try to use smart bombs.
Marine Maj. Craig Berryman says a day hasn't passed in the last 12 years that he hasn't thought of how Iraqi soldiers tortured, kicked and starved him in 1991.
Iraqi guards broke Berryman's left leg, beat him repeatedly and threatened him with shooting and mutilation. A lighted cigarette was twisted into an open wound on his neck, and his requests for medical attention were ignored.
He lost 25 pounds in 37 days and caught a case of dysentery that lasted two years and is likely to cause him digestive tract problems the rest of his life.
He was among 16 Gulf War POWS that also filed reports.
I suppose it's nicer just to stick to napalm than to try to use smart bombs.
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Agreed, what happened to him was horrific and inhumane.
Which is why we shouldn't be doing it.
Andreas_Montoya
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"We" didn't do it, the CIA did and as I've said, we have no control over them.
Still, it was done and still, I shed no tears for the prisoners of war. War itself is horrible, Saddam was feeding people alive into plastic shredders, making families watch as their loved one was pushed from a roof. His sons had torture and rape rooms and these were all committed against the civilian population. Trying to extract information as to their whereabouts was their goal.
We were led to believe that someone"just walked in" and informed where Saddam's sons were hiding. Strange they didn't claim the reward.
Amadan
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Read the report. There's not much evidence that our torture actually provided any useful intel.
And I'm always unimpressed with arguments that boil down to "the other guys are worse."
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I'm confused. Are you saying you're fine with the torture against our POWs, too?
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Of course he is. He can't very well argue it's okay for us to do it, but not the other side...
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I would think so too, but the description of the torture against Major Berryman was written out as if it were a terrible thing, not an oh-well-war-is-hell, which is at odds yet with the torture-as-retribution for the beheadings, crucifixions, and child rapes.
Torture seems very versatile in this branch of the conversation.
Andreas_Montoya
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Thank you for again putting words in my mouth. I said I shed no tears for the enemy combatants. Torture has been going on since the beginning of mankind and that will not change.
I just make it a point not to get upset over something which I have no control over.
Radical Muslims want everyone to convert, or be killed. You simply can't play nice with these people.
They are beheading innocent children this week. I have absolutely no sympathy for such people whatsoever.
I just make it a point not to get upset over something which I have no control over.
Radical Muslims want everyone to convert, or be killed. You simply can't play nice with these people.
They are beheading innocent children this week. I have absolutely no sympathy for such people whatsoever.
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You said you shed no tears over prisoners of war, not "enemy combatants". I didn't put any words in your mouth or your post either.
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Yes, agreed. The definition varies, it seems, not according to what's being inserted into whose whats-it, but more on who's doing the inserting. Which, I humbly suggest, is poppycock.
Amadan
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I don't think anyone does. I have no sympathy for murderers, rapists, and child molesters either, but I would not condone torturing them.
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Certainly not.
The thing is, from a different viewpoint, our soldiers and our intelligence assets are "enemy combatants". I can at least acknowledge the consistency of an opinion that accepts the practice of torture against all "enemy combatants" everywhere, even if I do not hold that opinion myself. If it is evil against our people and assets, then it is evil for anyone to do it to do it to anyone else, anywhere.
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By tolerating an action, you are condoning that action - an action we've got treaties to prevent. Loopholes are found to allow it to happen, but if a government is willing to look for loopholes to allow them to do horrible things, then there's nothing to stop them from looking for loopholes to do horrible things to you, too.
Torture is intolerable. It's ineffective. It's inhuman and inhumane. You can torture someone into speaking, but you cannot torture them into telling the truth. By "breaking" someone, you compromise the accuracy and validity of what they tell you, even if you can make them speak.
Torture is intolerable. It's ineffective. It's inhuman and inhumane. You can torture someone into speaking, but you cannot torture them into telling the truth. By "breaking" someone, you compromise the accuracy and validity of what they tell you, even if you can make them speak.
I've got another reason why torture is fucking horrible.
It's AWFUL P.R. Our enemies recruit people the same way we recruit people: Convincing the people who join up that their enemy is evil, and that their cause is just and good.
Lets try and not live down to our reputation as The Great Satan. If it just prevents one terrorist from joining up, then it'd be worth it, considering torture has (lets say it again) stopped no terror threats.
It's AWFUL P.R. Our enemies recruit people the same way we recruit people: Convincing the people who join up that their enemy is evil, and that their cause is just and good.
Lets try and not live down to our reputation as The Great Satan. If it just prevents one terrorist from joining up, then it'd be worth it, considering torture has (lets say it again) stopped no terror threats.
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And also, what are we asking of the people whose job it is to deliver the pain? What are we making? What are we taking from them? Or are we just finding sanctioned jobs for ice-blooded psychopaths who are thankful for the outlet and wouldn't be bothered by the finer details anyway?
It's all well and good to type from a comfy chair that you'd wield the pliers and the wires and the boards and the buckets yourself, but I have to imagine that it's quite different to stand before a stinking, defeated, terrified person and feel the pliers catch and flatten the crescent of a fingernail, then begin to pull and keep pulling past the resistance, past the screaming until the first gives way and the second wears itself out.
Now certainly, there are people on Planet Earth capable of these things. Maybe they even feel the glow of a job well done at the end of the day. But I doubt there are many of us who would fill those ranks.
It's all well and good to type from a comfy chair that you'd wield the pliers and the wires and the boards and the buckets yourself, but I have to imagine that it's quite different to stand before a stinking, defeated, terrified person and feel the pliers catch and flatten the crescent of a fingernail, then begin to pull and keep pulling past the resistance, past the screaming until the first gives way and the second wears itself out.
Now certainly, there are people on Planet Earth capable of these things. Maybe they even feel the glow of a job well done at the end of the day. But I doubt there are many of us who would fill those ranks.
Perks: A friend of mine had a great idea. She said, "If we want to end torture, do you know what we should do? Televise it."
There's a reason that execution chambers used to come with decoy switches. Three men throw the switch, only one is live, and everyone can leave believing that they weren't the one to actually make the kill.
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Yeah, that's just a few words on a screen I typed and I've already gotten some strong reactions in the reps. When we actually think of the sensations that go with the words of torture - and not just on the receiving subject - it's rough.
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We, or some of us, pay their salaries. We who are citizens of the United States elect the politicians who are expected to exercise oversight. They're doing it in our name, and they say they're doing it to defend our interests.
Although it's true that we don't have control of them, that's not an excuse. That's just a much larger problem, one that we have in addition to the problem of having a CIA that commits these crimes in our name.
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So are you saying the best answer to inhumanity and war crimes committed by other countries is to become inhumane war criminals ourselves?
This kind of "eye for an eye" revenge mindset is how feuds and political conflicts that last generations get started, the kind where each side become increasingly convinced of the inhumanity of the other side and use that to justify even more atrocities. It certainly serves no diplomatic or moral purpose, nor does it make the world a safer place for Americans (or anyone else).
Sadly, I think that would just sensationalize it and desensitize people to it, especially if many people believed it was for "the greater good."
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