Can I use orcs in my story?

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MartinD

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I've written my first fantasy, set on a different world. The story is told from the viewpoint of a Terran -- space travel is involved, too -- but includes a liberal amount of goblins, fairies and orcs. One of the members of my small writing group told me yesterday that I can't use the orcs.

According to her, orcs are a Tolkien creation and they can't be used in someone else's fantasy. It's the same as wanting to use hobbits in a fictional piece; it isn't allowed without legal permission. I can substitute a different kind of beastie in place of the orcs, I guess, but I kind of enjoy my orcs. I'd like to know if she's correct.

She doesn't write fantasy herself so she may not be the expert I need. I'm hoping I can find a suitable expert here.
 

efreysson

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I don't know anything about the legal side of things, but I would advice you to call them something else. "Orc" immediately makes me think of Tolkien and D&D. Just create your own evil, ugly race and stamp a name on them.
 

mrsmig

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You can use orcs. Others have: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc

But your friend has a point. There's something to be said for creating your own race, rather than use one that is so specific to a particular author.
 

waylander

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Google 'Bodyguard of Lightning' and show the result to your fellow writing group member
 

Marian Perera

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But your friend has a point. There's something to be said for creating your own race, rather than use one that is so specific to a particular author.

This.

R. A. Salvatore has a novel titled The Thousand Orcs, but he's R. A. Salvatore. If I see orcs featured in a fantasy novel, I check if it's a satire, like Mary Gentle's Grunts. If not... well, hopefully something about the blurb will overcome my been-there-read-that feeling.
 

Robert Dawson

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MartinD: My own $2E-02:

(1) Fairies and orcs aren't part of the same tradition. Unless you handle a syncretic world like this rather carefully, it will feel to many people (me, at least) more like a role playing game than mainstream spec fic.

(2) If your goblins and fairies are meant to have come from Earth, like rats in a ship's hold, or as crew members, you have a really neat idea. But you will need to make this very clear, before *bookwall*

If they are not meant to have come from Earth, I will concede that it is slightly more likely that fairies are there to meet the first space-ship than that (say) hedgehogs are. But you had better have everybody astonished on your readers' behalf if it's the first evidence for Fairy Panspermia.

Otherwise, I suggest doing the safe thing and make them some local supernatural beings that are not fairies or goblins, but fill a similar ecological niche. (If this is made very clear, you can have people calling them this, especially if they do not speak to humans so nobody knows what they call themselves - but it might be safer and more fun not to.)
 

MartinD

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Thanks to all. So much education in a very short period of time. I don't even know what *bookwall* means.

I'm pleased to know I can use orcs, even if I shouldn't. So my story -involving Terrans traveling to an entire world populated by goblins (the ruling class), orcs (the enforcers) and fairies (the evil creatures) - is likely to be hated on sight?
 

Maryn

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*bookwall* means throwing one's book at the wall in frustration with its content.

Although I usually go for a more Frisbee-like approach and can get some distance that way.

Maryn, who sometimes buys poorly
 

Robert Dawson

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So my story -involving Terrans traveling to an entire world populated by goblins (the ruling class), orcs (the enforcers) and fairies (the evil creatures) - is likely to be hated on sight?

Only if you use those names, or slavishly follow the stereotypes. Throw in a few touches of your own, avoid (or alter) very specific cliches, call all three races something new, and you're fine.

Otherwise, I'm afraid my likely reaction as a reader would be that you just hadn't bothered to do appropriate worldbuilding. That's unless you do something really clever to explain their presence (like the witches in Ray Bradbury's "The Exiles"), or do a brilliant job of Terry-Pratchett-style self-aware genre parody. I have to say both of these seem like hard things to do...there aren't a lot of Bradburys and Pratchetts out there.
 

MartinD

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Robert, thanks again for jumping in here. I absolutely followed the stereotypes as I (vaguely) knew them so changes will be made. I think it's a fun story and I'm proud of it but it stays on the hard drive until I've tinkered some more.

You guys have been great.
 

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While Tolkien may have popularized Orcs the way we now think of them, he is by no means their creator. Orc is a derivative of Orcus, the Roman God of Death. Use of Orcs, or Orkes began as early as the mid 1600's. Tolkien himself has stated in writings his use of the word Orc was based in Old English.

Then there are the Orcs in World of Warcraft and many other games too numerous to list.
 

Roxxsmom

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According to her, orcs are a Tolkien creation and they can't be used in someone else's fantasy.

Someone had better tell this to the creators of the D and D and Warcraft (an countless other fantasy RPG) universes, then.

Seriously, though, I'm fairly certain that orcs are not trademarked the way the word "hobbits" is, and in fact, Tolkien took the word from mythology. The earliest version of Dungeons and Dragons had "hobbits" in it, but the creators had to change the word to "halflings" in later editions, as per it being unique to Tolkien's work. The same thing didn't happen with orcs.

There are also fantasy books with orcs in them, such as Mary Gentle's Grunts. Methinks your friend doesn't read fantasy or play fantasy games much.
 
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King Neptune

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Yes, use "orc" if you wish it. The word has ancient origin. "Ogre" and "orc" are related words; "orc" is just one form.
 

rwm4768

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Yes.

The real question: should you use orcs in your story?

Back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, there were a lot of fantasy authors who used some of the races from LOTR. Recently, though, you see very few of them, and those that do use them usually put a different twist on them.
 

BradCarsten

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As others have said, there are numerous other works referencing them, and not all are massive IPs. "Orc attack flatulent rebellion", and "Of orcs and men" comes to mind.

I don't know anything about the legal side of things, but I would advice you to call them something else. "Orc" immediately makes me think of Tolkien and D&D. Just create your own evil, ugly race and stamp a name on them.

Funny enough the first thing I thought of was Warcraft 2 - orcs and humans, so I guess Tolkien isn't always a given.
 

Once!

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Interesting question. When Games Workshop used the word "ork" instead of orc (before they got the LOTR deal) I presumed this was to keep the legal eagles happy. After all, I don't think we can use "hobbit".

The examples in this thread suggest that orc predates Tolkien, so we should be safe. But as others have said, even if you can use "orc" there is a bigger question about whether you would want to.
 

Cathy C

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You CAN use orc, but I'd advise against it and here's why: because the reader could get a pre-conceived notion of the look and traits of the creature that will defeat any world building you create. I actually had this same situation come up in a WIP I was trying to sell to my publisher. My editor's concern was with the word "demon." I had varying levels and types of demons in a weird society, which she liked but was spoiled by the word. She suggested I rework it and pick names that were unique. I did, by looking at a random word generator that allows for obscure nouns. I discovered I liked the sounds of words that are scientific flora names and parts of plants. They sound surprisingly arcane and evil. :ROFL:
 

Filigree

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This. If you get a chance to make your work stand out and be different, take the chance. We've already read Tolkien and Dragonlance. Pratchett and Hines have a different and fresher take that doesn't read like notes cribbed from someone's D&D game circa 1986.

In a sword & planet fantasy mms I'm revising, I have big brawny orc-like people (but somewhat more photogenic) and diminutive elf-like people (the last remnants of a high-tech civilization), uneasily coexisting in a world that doesn't like either group.* I do not use those names, nor will I. But hints come through in description.

Because why would they call themselves 'orcs' or 'elves'? Humans would, but colonizing humans are extinct on that planet.

*If anything, I stole that trope more from the Pini's Elfquest graphic novels, but it has evolved well beyond that.
 
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Roxxsmom

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In a SF setting, it's not outside the realm of possibility than humans would name an alien race (or modified human variant) that is vaguely reminiscent of mythological beings something like "orcs," "elves," or "trolls." I'm not sure that's what these people would call themselves,though, unless they're been dominated by ordinary humans (in a cultural sense) for so long that they've forgotten the original context or what their own name for themselves was.
 
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Alessandra Kelley

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Tolkien did invent "orcs" as they are currently understood.

The word existed earlier, but it just meant a demon, or sometimes a ferocious sea creature.

It was Tolkien who made the term mean the tribes of warlike goblinoid creatures that the word now evokes.
 

Roxxsmom

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Tolkien did invent "orcs" as they are currently understood.

The word existed earlier, but it just meant a demon, or sometimes a ferocious sea creature.

It was Tolkien who made the term mean the tribes of warlike goblinoid creatures that the word now evokes.

Even so, for whatever reason, the word hasn't been trademarked (or whatever it is that prevents people from using the term "hobbits" without permission).

I think the can be used is another issue than the "should" be used, however. As some have pointed out, fantasy that feels like it takes place in a Tolkienesque world has become less common in the past decade or so (in novels, orcs, and elves and dwarves are still going strong in video games).

But chasing fashions is inadvisable, because by the time a novel that's stared now is submitted, let alone published, who knows what will be popular?
 

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The travellers could use the terms sarcastically, as if they see these beings that have fantasy-book equivalents and out of sheer, I dunno, laziness name them thus. "Hey. it's an uigly alien, looks like a Orc from Lord Of The Rings!"

Otherwise they could be "Ron Jeremies", "Liberaces" and "Rush Limbaughs". (shrugs!)
 

MartinD

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Well, at least I'll have some interesting thoughts to share with my fellow writer next Wednesday.

Seriously, I appreciate knowing I can use the the term even if I shouldn't use it. And I see now why I shouldn't. Time to find a random word generator and then go from there.
 
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