Can I use orcs in my story?

I don't have any issue using orcs, just like I use elves, goblins, pixies, dwarves, wizards, dragons.....

Sorry. I don't buy into the "Tolkien owns orcs" argument.

My orcs are grown frm a seed, a human seed....and I go thru great detail describing how this works and how the process is different from creating life from scratch.

If Tolkien protected the name, like the estate did with Hobbit, I would certainly honor that. They did not.

Just because Tolkien doesn't own orcs doesn't mean that using creatures identical to Tolkien's isn't cliche. How would you explain them being Always Chaotic Evil?

And if they are not, then how do you justify the heroes killing them, without knowing whether they have actually done anything evil?

Sorry to harp on this, but it bothers me, the way ugly beings just *are* evil, every single one, because they were born that way, so the good guys can slaughter them with worry.

Hypatia said:

Just because Tolkien doesn't own orcs doesn't mean that using creatures identical to Tolkien's isn't cliche. How would you explain them being Always Chaotic Evil?

And if they are not, then how do you justify the heroes killing them, without knowing whether they have actually done anything evil?

Sorry to harp on this, but it bothers me, the way ugly beings just *are* evil, every single one, because they were born that way, so the good guys can slaughter them with worry.

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Why assume someone is going to use them in the exact same way he used orcs and uruk-hai? That seems ridiculous if you haven't seen the person's MSS. I know I use them in one of my stories, and I certainly don't make them evil. In fact, I made their society complex. The orc character that gets the most time in this particular story is actually my favorite character.

MartinD said:

I've written my first fantasy, set on a different world. The story is told from the viewpoint of a Terran -- space travel is involved, too -- but includes a liberal amount of goblins, fairies and orcs.

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You got some comments saying that you'd have to handle this carefully and that perhaps implied it's a bad idea. I'm just popping through to say that I love this sort of tropebending and would absolutely give it a shot.

Hypatia said:

Sorry to harp on this, but it bothers me, the way ugly beings just *are* evil, every single one, because they were born that way, so the good guys can slaughter them with worry.

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I agree that it's unfair to always assume that beings who are ugly (by human standards, as they would presumably not think of themselves in this way) are evil, but there have actually been many different takes on orcs already. Warcraft orcs aren't inherently evil, and whether the Horde or Alliance are the bad or good guys depends on which side you're playing (and Thrall was actually my favorite npc back when I played the game). And there have been novels where orcs, goblins and so on are actually the protagonists. We don't know the OP is looking to write a D&D type story with orcs as mindless baddies that are there to give the protagonists experience.

Hypatia said:

Just because Tolkien doesn't own orcs doesn't mean that using creatures identical to Tolkien's isn't cliche. How would you explain them being Always Chaotic Evil?

And if they are not, then how do you justify the heroes killing them, without knowing whether they have actually done anything evil?

Sorry to harp on this, but it bothers me, the way ugly beings just *are* evil, every single one, because they were born that way, so the good guys can slaughter them with worry.

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Not sure if this is being addressed to me or not, but You know nothing about how I've introduced orcs, their behavior in my books or whether or not they are "slaughtered without worry."

Fairly presumptuous of you I would say.

I develop the different breeds, spend considerable time on their origin and the roles they play in the dark wizard's army, and then introduce several twists in later books in the series.

The fact that they are orcs, grown grom seed using corrupted creation magic, is really the only thing my orcs share with others - though even that can be argued.

In my mind it's no different than long lived elves or dwarves who live in caverns and mine underground.

Races used in fantasy books should inherit the general characteristics readers have come to expect in those races from the authors who have come before us. This makes a book comfortable and believable. Yes it's ok to deviate from this, but the father afield you go, the more unbelievable your world becomes.

Can you imagine every epic fantasy being written where none of the races in the book had ever been used before? Of course not. Orcs are no different from goblins, elves or dwarves.

Thewitt said:

Can you imagine every epic fantasy being written where none of the races in the book had ever been used before? Of course not. Orcs are no different from goblins, elves or dwarves.

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Yes, actually, I can imagine it very easily. I'd have to say that the overwhelming majority of fantasy novels I've read over the past few years haven't had the standard fantasy races at all, and the ones that did have put some unusual spins on them.

Not saying there's anything wrong with shooting for comfortable and familiar if that's what you like. You should write the kind of stuff you like to read, or the kind of stuff that you wish was out there for you to read.

Thewitt said:

Races used in fantasy books should inherit the general characteristics readers have come to expect in those races from the authors who have come before us. This makes a book comfortable and believable. Yes it's ok to deviate from this, but the father afield you go, the more unbelievable your world becomes.

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Um. Well, yes and no.

Some readers want books to be comfortable and familiar. They really enjoyed book X, so they want their next book to be X2. Then after that they will read X3.

It's why Hollywood makes so many damned sequels. And why just about every book is part of a series. Or at least that is how it seems sometimes. And it's why there are so many Tolkien clones. And why so many books have orcs, elves, dragons and wizards.

And if that is the market that you want to appeal to, then go right ahead. It's one point of view. There are plenty of readers out there who share it.

But it's not the only point of view. Comfy isn't always good. It's a bit like buying knickers. Yes you want some comfortable everyday knickers for chillaxing in a One Direction onesie. But you might also want some racy lacy numbers for when life gets a little spicy.

If I come across the word "orc" in a story, I immediately get a whole barrow-load of imagery and ideas. It's a word laden with baggage. Orcs are mindless and savage. Unintelligent. Unremittingly evil. Brutish. No sense of humour. Convenient sword and archery fodder. Footsoldiers of someone more cunning.

The orcs in a particular story might be a little bit different. They might be kind to their kids, nice to the older orcs. They might sing songs, play the flute, crochet their own underwear, pick wild mountain flowers.

But because they are called orcs I will start out by imagining them as ... well, orcs. There is no easy way to say it.

By all means have orcs if you want to. There are gazillions of books out there with orcs in them. Or decide that you don't want orcs because ... ahem ... there gazillions of books out there with orcs in them.

But please let's not kid ourselves that there is only one point of view here. Comfy knickers or sexy red racing thongs?

There's a time and a place for each.

Thewitt said:

Races used in fantasy books should inherit the general characteristics readers have come to expect in those races from the authors who have come before us. This makes a book comfortable and believable. Yes it's ok to deviate from this, but the father afield you go, the more unbelievable your world becomes.

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If it's OK to deviate from this, why tell us that races "should" have characteristics that make for a comfortable read? Sometimes I'm not in the mood for comfort. And personally, I'd rather read about khepri, sentient moles, the Wasp Empire or the White Walkers than the usual elves, dwarves and orcs.

I like getting a taste of the unusual and unexpected in fantasy. And it's possible to make a fantasy world convincing even with races very different from the norm.

By all means write about orcs if you want, but as Once! said, there are different points of view here.

Roxxsmom said:

Yes, actually, I can imagine it very easily. I'd have to say that the overwhelming majority of fantasy novels I've read over the past few years haven't had the standard fantasy races at all, and the ones that did have put some unusual spins on them.

Not saying there's anything wrong with shooting for comfortable and familiar if that's what you like. You should write the kind of stuff you like to read, or the kind of stuff that you wish was out there for you to read.

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So no elves, dwarves, goblins, Wizards, dragons, nothing of the classic fantasy races?

Once! said:

But please let's not kid ourselves that there is only one point of view here. Comfy knickers or sexy red racing thongs?

There's a time and a place for each.

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I have NEVER said there is only one point of view, so I hope you are not attributing that to me.

The people who say once Tolkien uses orcs they are off limits are the single view camp.

Thewitt said:

So no elves, dwarves, goblins, Wizards, dragons, nothing of the classic fantasy races?

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I've read two of China Mieville's Bas-Lag novels, and they didn't mention any of these. Though I wasn't aware "Wizards" were considered a race.

Ditto for Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel novels, Tanith Lee's Secret Books of Paradys (at least the two I've read), and Tchaikovsky's Shadows of the Apt series. Getting into more urban fantasy, I've read a few Downside Ghosts novels and one of Francis Knight's books, and they seemed to do fine without elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.

Thewitt said:

but the father afield you go, the more unbelievable your world becomes.

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The Goblin Hero books work because the entire arc is about one goblin changing himself for the better, and (IIRC) elevating his people out of the pettiness that had come to define them.

The goblins of World of Warcraft are brilliant but deranged scientists with a penchant for trading.

The goblins of Goblin Market are different still.

From which field are people straying?

Correction: Martin was the OP, not Thewitt. Mea culpa. Thewitt has already published works.

Thewitt said:

So no elves, dwarves, goblins, Wizards, dragons, nothing of the classic fantasy races?

...Races used in fantasy books should inherit the general characteristics readers have come to expect in those races from the authors who have come before us. This makes a book comfortable and believable. Yes it's ok to deviate from this, but the father afield you go, the more unbelievable your world becomes.

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(My bolding) No, it just becomes another kind of speculative fiction. I may not necessarily want to court a readership with those expectations. At the very least, I want to startle and intrigue them with a new take on, say, elves, orcs, sorcerers, or dragons.

Sigh. I've only been on AW for six years, counting lurk time, and I've lost count of the iterations of this very discussion.

Look, some readers are going to say, 'Oooo, goody, more accepted tropes that are easy for me to understand'. Others are going to say, 'God, not again, I'm so bored by these damn things now.'

It's up to you as the author of your own work to decide the tack you take. I could cite half a dozen great novels that use the fantasy-race-trope almost exactly as you propose, six that don't, and another six that twist the trope in some interesting way. What is 'unbelieveable' to one reader is a refreshing change to another.

But that doesn't really matter, because those books are not your novel. You're right, we don't know how you've handled the tropes. We won't, until you either post a snippet in the SYW section or publish elsewhere.

Thewitt*, what is *your* goal here, your reason for asking the question to begin with?

Confirmation? I can't tell you whether the writing works until I see some of it up in the SYW section**. My gut feeling is to avoid anything that smells too much of Dragonlance, Warhammer, and the other Tolkien clones I've been seeing since 1977, but I can always be persuaded to at least look.

Permission? Absolution? No one can give you that but the market and the readers. Every published story is a gamble and a compromise.

Are you looking for a spirited discussion with a lot of different opinions? That, we can do here on AW. But it might help if we knew what you wanted out of the conversation.

* See correction above.

** Thewitt has work available on Amazon; I don't know about the OP. .

Filigree said:

Thewitt, what is *your* goal here, your reason for asking the question to begin with?

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It wasn't my question. I'm defending the OPs right to use Orcs in his book if he wants, when others have told him it's forbidden...

Thewitt said:

It wasn't my question. I'm defending the OPs right to use Orcs in his book if he wants, when others have told him it's forbidden...

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I don't think anyone on this thread said it's "forbidden".

Most people said yes, you can use orcs, but here's why we wouldn't advise you to do so. That's not the same as, "You can't! It's forbidden!"

I did catch that, post-coffee. Sorry, Thewitt.

I'm not one of those saying it's 'forbidden', BTW. I'm just in the camp of wanting to see new takes on fantasy race tropes. I think they add to the spec-fic experience as a whole, whereas the tried-n-true versions may come across as too safe and predictable to some readers. But then, the rules of expectation may tend to be different in YA, which I don't write.

It all boils down to the skill of the writer. Great writers can turn staid tropes into brilliant portrayals. Dull writers tend to slog along in the 'me, too!' shuffle.

Just make them Orcs and substitute another name. You could even just invent fiction sub-races of familiar ones like "Swamp Goblins" or "Ice trolls". Ultimately I think what fans are looking for is not familiar terminology so much as familiar characteristics. If you took a race like dwarfs, gave them all the familiar dwarven traits, but stuck boar's heads on them called them "Snortfolk", people would still get that, for all intents and purposes, these are dwarfs. I think they would let you slide on the name.

Thewitt said:

Races used in fantasy books should inherit the general characteristics readers have come to expect in those races from the authors who have come before us. This makes a book comfortable and believable. Yes it's ok to deviate from this, but the father afield you go, the more unbelievable your world becomes.

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I'm personally interpreting this differently to everybody else - what I think Thewitt means is, if you are going to use one of the more established races, to an extent there are certain features associated with them that straying too far from those features can leave the readership lost. It's a little like calling a smeerp a rabbit - rabbits have certain baggage. Words like orc, elve and dwarf can conjure up certain imagery, and if you turn it on its head too much, you may as well come up with a different name for that race. This isn't to say to not play with those races a great deal; but again, there is baggage.

Thewitt said:

Can you imagine every epic fantasy being written where none of the races in the book had ever been used before? Of course not. Orcs are no different from goblins, elves or dwarves.

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It is very easy to imagine such a thing - there are cultures in this world that operate outside of Western mindsets and beliefs. Studio Ghibli does amazing work on their movies, most relevant to this conversation ones such as Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away. Howl's Moving Castle is another - and while based on a non-Asian/Japanese novel - has wizards and magic and fantasy kingdoms, but no orcs, et al in sight.

Kitsune and Hú​li​jīng of Japanese and Chinese mythology are an example of other non-Western beliefs - fox 'spirits', and they are the inspiration for my work. I think they are absolutely wonderful (excepting the sexist connotations they can have, but things can be done about that!). There will be other non-human races present; but there will be no orcs, goblins, elves or dwarves in my work because they do not fit.

Of course, I could also interpret the quote slightly differently - everything has been done before in some form, case in point my fox spirits are drawing from a whole swath of sources from Japanese and Chinese folklore and mythology, and there are modern novels that use these beings too. Even if I'm not to include the typical Western culture fantasy races, I'm still including beings that other groups will be very familiar with.

Once! said:

If I come across the word "orc" in a story, I immediately get a whole barrow-load of imagery and ideas. It's a word laden with baggage. Orcs are mindless and savage. Unintelligent. Unremittingly evil. Brutish.

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Is it very bad of me that when I misread Brutish as British that I immediately thought of Farage?

Thewitt said:

So no elves, dwarves, goblins, Wizards, dragons, nothing of the classic fantasy races?

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There are plenty of books with none of those races, though you might find humans who are wizards. And some without even them.

I write magic users, that's about it for "races", though ofc they aren't a race. Oh, wait, there was a dragon once. For about a page.

And if you look up mannerpunk you'll find lots of stories with no magic or races in them.


Anyway, ofc you can use orcs. It may be inadvisable, maybe not, depending on what you're going to do with them/who you see your market as being. Didn't do Stan Nicholls any harm...

Good luck with your book MartinD

Thewitt said:

I have NEVER said there is only one point of view, so I hope you are not attributing that to me.

The people who say once Tolkien uses orcs they are off limits are the single view camp.

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"The single view camp"??? - you mean there is only one single view camp?

Let's imagine a sliding scale of orc-acceptability. It goes all the way from zero to 100. At zero we have the group of people who don't like orcs at all. They believe that Tolkien has trodden this ground pretty much flat. They are your single view camp.

At the other extreme, say 100 on our orc-acceptability scale, we have the people who say that orcs are fabulous, utterly brilliant. In fact, so brilliant that they have to be included in every fantasy story. My contention is that they are also a single view camp.

Most of us are somewhere in the middle. I'm pretty bored of orcs but I'm prepared to be convinced if someone has written a good story that includes them. I'd say I'm about 30% on the orc-acceptability scale.

Where I struggle is when someone says:

"Races used in fantasy books should inherit the general characteristics readers have come to expect in those races from the authors who have come before us."

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Or

Yes it's ok to deviate from this, but the father afield you go, the more unbelievable your world becomes.

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I don't agree with this. It is far too close to the 100% mark on the orc acceptability scale. For me, fantasy becomes more believable the further it gets from Tolkien. It has become so clichéd that when someone puts an orc in their book, I don't see their orc. I see Tolkien's orcs.

I have little desire for comfortable, familiar fantasy. We have the vast realm of the imagination to explore! And what makes a world with blisthren less "realistic" than a world with elves?

(Elves aren't real.)

Hypatia said:

I have little desire for comfortable, familiar fantasy. We have the vast realm of the imagination to explore! And what makes a world with blisthren less "realistic" than a world with elves?

(Elves aren't real.)

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Wow, I'm impressed. You managed to use the word familiar in a obviously insulting way.

Honestly, what makes Blisthren unrealistic to some people is the whole smeerp thing. In an effort to not call them elves or other established mythological creatures, people tend to do something like give them vile tempers and blue skin. Well, that doesn't work. And if you're going to make a new being, you may as well really make a new one. A blue elf is a blue elf. The idea that elves and the like are boring and crontrived only adds to the amount of lazy paint it blue and call it something else elves.

I personally would much rather people just write elves if they're only going to paint the things blue and make them war-like. Less hassel for me when I realise the damn things are really elves, and feel cheated because I was promised something new to read about.