8 Year Old Wears Suit, and ...er... this... is.. um.. news, I guess?

Yeah. Private schools aren't very common in my area, but I went to a very well-ranking, reputable, soft-hearted public high school with a relatively small amount of kids. It still did not go well.

I'm really wondering if I'm misreading Cornflake's post though -- if it's about "education" as a concept disassociated from school, then sure, I would completely agree that it's universally beneficial for kids to be well-educated. It's getting the environment right that's very tricky.

Devil Ledbetter said:

I respect that the Jolie-Pitt family is not forcing gender-specific clothing (or activities) on their kids. One can hope that our culture will gradually move away from gender policing, and families are a great place to start. The way the Jolie-Pitts do this under public scrutiny could go a long way toward normalizing a broader spectrum of gender norms.

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Agreed. I hate superfluous celebrity "news" as much as the next person, but I adore this kind of stuff.

My daughter and I went to Tesco dressed as ninjas, had a mock fight in the car park and then went and did our shopping.

Not one person batted an eyelid. I think that says more about the folks that live in my hometown than anything else.

I'm a big fan of letting kids wear whatever they want in their own free time - ie. when not at school etc (I think that expressing yourself if great, but kids also need to learn that dress codes exist too)

I grew up in a legalistic religious environment in which a girl could get a reprimand from her pastor if he caught her wearing pants. I haaaaaaaaated wearing skirts the entire time I was in that environment. I'd enjoyed it as a little girl, but when it was forced on me? Nope. All I wanted to do was wear boy clothes. I would have given anything to be able to wear a suit like my dad's rather than a flimsy dress that boys were always trying to look under. I was always cold, I never felt secure, and I couldn't run around and play like I wanted to, so those years of my childhood were miserable and sucked up my self-esteem like a vacuum. I'd worn a school uniform when I was little, complete with jacket and tie, and I would have given anything to go back to that rather than worrying about my blouse buttons gaping open at exactly the wrong moment. I would have killed to be allowed to dress like Shiloh!

After getting out of that environment at about 13, I wore pants ALL THE TIME. And not sexy girly pants either - baggy pants with baggy sweaters, because I was so sick of boys commenting on my body. I wanted people to think I was a boy at first glance, or at least that I was a lot younger than I really was.

I slowly started getting over it by my 20s. Now I'm a girly-girl again who loves wearing skirts and dresses. That's how I feel comfortable now, rather than in tight pants that don't allow me to bend and move the way leggings and a short, frilly skirt do. That's life - you go through phases!

As long as they're not pushing her to define herself as being one thing or another simply because of the way she likes to dress, I don't see why this is a big deal. Let kids go through their phases, let them feel comfortable and secure in this crazy old world. Assigning one style to this gender and another style to that is so arbitrary anyway. We all used to wear robes, for crying out loud. What difference does it make? I'd much rather my beautiful young daughter wanted to dress modestly and comfortably when standing in front of cameras than that she wanted to buy into the whole "girls are on this planet to tempt boys" mentality and wear a skimpy dress.

Oh look, they all match. That's cute.

Today I am wearing a men's shirt, an ankle length skirt, and eye-searingly patterned junior girl's leggings. Clothes are clothes.

Cyia said:

The thing that puzzles me about it, and the reason I posted it here, is that it seems such a strange thing to fixate on.

You've got a film, which is what the press is there to cover in the first place. One that's supposedly Oscar-buzzy, and one dealing with a real person's life and the things that happened in it. (Can't comment as to the accuracy of the portrayal, having not seen it, of course.)

You've also got the absence of the film's director who is home sick with chicken pox - a potentially dangerous condition for an adult. (Might be a good time to highlight the risk of a common ailment.)

So in light of those two things, either of which could make a decent angle for a story, they decide to focus on the fashion choices of a third grader.

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Ooh, ooh, I know the answer!

The fashion choice of the 3rd grader is the topic most likely to get internet pearl clutching or laudatory commentary, likes and shares.

I'll never understand why people get so threatened by children going against gender norms. A lot of it is homophobia, I suppose. Though I also suppose that since male and female children generally don't have drastically different development pre-puberty, people are uncomfortable when they can't cleanly divide children into male and female categories based on appearance.

It may be worth pointing out that it's possible Shiloh is actually trans. I remember reading reports that Shiloh prefers being called John, for example. But it's also possible that she's just a girl who's a tomboy and enjoys wearing more masculine clothes. Either way, it seems like Brad and Angelina are doing a great job of letting their kids be themselves.

Faye-M said:

We all used to wear robes, for crying out loud.

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Eh?

DancingMaenid said:

I'll never understand why people get so threatened by children going against gender norms. A lot of it is homophobia, I suppose. Though I also suppose that since male and female children generally don't have drastically different development pre-puberty, people are uncomfortable when they can't cleanly divide children into male and female categories based on appearance.

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I secretly like it when people get my gender sex wrong before I turn around. I don't remember anymore when I stopped correcting them.

I'd go for mistaking people from the front too, but I like my bit of chin pubis a bit too much. Nice to have something to stroke when I'm bored.

kuwisdelu said:

I'd go for mistaking people from the front too, but I like my bit of chin pubis a bit too much. Nice to have something to stroke when I'm bored.

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Or being evil...

I love it when billionaires teach us how to be fair.

More importantly, chin pubis? So then your nose is a... nevahmind.

Fruitbat said:

More importantly, chin pubis? So then your nose is a... nevahmind.

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Only when I tell enough lies.

kuwisdelu said:

Only when I tell enough lies.

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Look on the bright side. You can blow it yourself! Hahahaaa--- *falls off stage*

DancingMaenid said:

I'll never understand why people get so threatened by children going against gender norms. A lot of it is homophobia, I suppose.

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I think it's mainly homophobia. And I think other "concerns" like the child will get bullied for not conforming is really just more homophobia tucked behind a concern troll mask.

DancingMaenid said:

Though I also suppose that since male and female children generally don't have drastically different development pre-puberty, people are uncomfortable when they can't cleanly divide children into male and female categories based on appearance.

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An argument could be made that the gender stratification of children has skewed younger and younger. My parents' (they're in their mid 70s) baby and toddler pictures are non gender specific. And these are formal pictures. My dad has long curly hair and a lacy gown, so could easily be a girl by today's standards; mom has short, thin hair and the plain clothes of poverty--no ribbons or bows to scream "girl!" Yet if you Google "ultrasound little man" you will get thousands of hits of people referring to their XY fetus like he's an adult male. And everyone puts those godawful (sorry if you love these, I HATE them) "brain tourniquets" on the heads of their bald premie girls because GOD FORBID anyone mistake her for a male.

People are awful.

DancingMaenid said:

It may be worth pointing out that it's possible Shiloh is actually trans. I remember reading reports that Shiloh prefers being called John, for example. But it's also possible that she's just a girl who's a tomboy and enjoys wearing more masculine clothes. Either way, it seems like Brad and Angelina are doing a great job of letting their kids be themselves.

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That wouldn't surprise me in the least, and I agree they seem to be doing a great job for accepting their kids for who they are.

Devil Ledbetter said:

[snip] because GOD FORBID anyone mistake her for a male.

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Heh. This immediately made me think of a family in my building. They've got a cute little girl, a wee toddler now. From my observation of them, they're obviously trying hard to raise her outside of gender stereotypes, etc. -- dressing her in gender-neutral clothes, giving her gender-neutral toys, etc. Which is fine.

Except.

The first time I met them, they were new to the building. Their kid was maybe six months old then, practically bald, dressed in a little blue sweater with tiny white skulls on it (and super cute). The elevator was broken, and the mom was trying to lug the stroller down five flights of stairs. I took one end and helped her. When we got to the bottom, she thanked me and I said, "oh, my pleasure. Your baby is adorable. And I love his sweater!"

Well. She fixed me with a nasty glare and said, "she's a girl, thank you." Like I'd just said the baby had two heads.

OK, fine if you want to dress your baby girl in boyish clothes so she doesn't grow up thinking frilly and pink are her only options. But face it -- all babies look pretty much alike, and there's nothing about their wee cute faces to say boy or girl. If it means so much to you that people recognize her as a girl, put on a bow or dress her in pink. Or put a sticker on her forehead that says "GIRL!" Otherwise, get the fuck over yourself. And how silly to pretend to be all gender neutral when obviously you're not all that neutral about it.

CassandraW said:

Heh. This immediately made me think of a family in my building. They've got a cute little girl, a wee toddler now. From my observation of them, they're obviously trying hard to raise her outside of gender stereotypes, etc. -- dressing her in gender-neutral clothes, giving her gender-neutral toys, etc. Which is fine.

Except.

The first time I met them, they were new to the building. Their kid was maybe six months old then, practically bald, dressed in a little blue sweater with tiny white skulls on it (and super cute). The elevator was broken, and the mom was trying to lug the stroller down five flights of stairs. I took one end and helped her. When we got to the bottom, she thanked me and I said, "oh, my pleasure. Your baby is adorable. And I love his sweater!"

Well. She fixed me with a nasty glare and said, "she's a girl, thank you." Like I'd just said the baby had two heads.

OK, fine if you want to dress your baby girl in boyish clothes so she doesn't grow up thinking frilly and pink are her only options. But face it -- all babies look pretty much alike, and there's nothing about their wee cute faces to say boy or girl. If it means so much to you that people recognize her as a girl, put on a bow or dress her in pink. Or put a sticker on her forehead that says "GIRL!" Otherwise, get the fuck over yourself. And how silly to pretend to be all gender neutral when obviously you're not all that neutral about it.

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So true. It's surprising that someone who cared that much would dress the child gender neutral.

I let my son's hair grow long when he was a toddler, and I didn't fuss when he was mistaken for a girl. He was not dressed in girlish clothes, but his hair fell to the middle of his back for while there.

CassandraW said:

OK, fine if you want to dress your baby girl in boyish clothes so she doesn't grow up thinking frilly and pink are her only options. But face it -- all babies look pretty much alike, and there's nothing about their wee cute faces to say boy or girl. If it means so much to you that people recognize her as a girl, put on a bow or dress her in pink. Or put a sticker on her forehead that says "GIRL!" Otherwise, get the fuck over yourself. And how silly to pretend to be all gender neutral when obviously you're not all that neutral about it.

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When my first was a baby, she had a couple of blue onesies. They had little flowers and ruffles on them--I actually thought they were pretty, and pretty girly--but they were still blue. People used to tell me all the time what an adorable/handsome little boy I had; I stopped correcting them after the first one or two. I mean, what was the point, really? She was an infant (so she didn't care, and it is hard to tell with babies), and they were just being nice.

DancingMaenid said:

Either way, it seems like Brad and Angelina are doing a great job of letting their kids be themselves.

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I don't know about that. Jolie has always been an attention whore. When Shiloh was wearing a Ramones shirt when she was four, I didn't really believe she picked it out herself, either.

Celia Cyanide said:

I don't know about that. Jolie has always been an attention whore.

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Yes, she has.

Celia Cyanide said:

I don't know about that. Jolie has always been an attention whore. When Shiloh was wearing a Ramones shirt when she was four, I didn't really believe she picked it out herself, either.

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How exactly does it matter whether she picked out the shirt at four or not? That's an age where kids are still pretty much dressed by their parents, though they can certainly have a favorite shirt, dress, sweater/sweat shirt etc. I loved my Batman shoes at four or five, I'm not quite sure which. I also had a Bulls track suit that I loved and wore constantly when I was 6. Sure, my mom got the stuff for me. But in both cases, she got them because I found both while we were shopping and they made me happy.

I don't think it odd that Shiloh could have gravitated towards a Ramones shirt while out shopping if she in fact was the one to pick it, or that she gravitates towards suits for special events at this point in time either. Kids like what they like.

Lillith1991 said:

How exactly does it matter whether she picked out the shirt at four or not?

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It doesn't. I just said I don't personally believe she did.

Jesus...

Lillith1991 said:

Kids like what they like.

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The point is that I don't believe she does. I don't believe an average four year old really likes the Ramones, and I don't think any of the Jolie-Pitts know/care very much about them.

Filigree said:

2) Are the clothes remaining on the child for an acceptable span of time?

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this made me laugh, My brother was notorious for stripping off his clothes and running around naked as a kid. If you took your eye off him for a minute, in church, at stores, at a neighbors where ever. he would be naked and running away.

kuwisdelu said:

I secretly like it when people get my gender sex wrong before I turn around. I don't remember anymore when I stopped correcting them.

I'd go for mistaking people from the front too, but I like my bit of chin pubis a bit too much. Nice to have something to stroke when I'm bored.

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Thanks to my rather feminine face and curvy build, I can't pass as male well even when I really try.

But a few times, I've had people "mistake" me for a guy, and I hate hearing them fall over themselves apologizing once they realize their "mistake."

Devil Ledbetter said:

An argument could be made that the gender stratification of children has skewed younger and younger. My parents' (they're in their mid 70s) baby and toddler pictures are non gender specific. And these are formal pictures. My dad has long curly hair and a lacy gown, so could easily be a girl by today's standards; mom has short, thin hair and the plain clothes of poverty--no ribbons or bows to scream "girl!" Yet if you Google "ultrasound little man" you will get thousands of hits of people referring to their XY fetus like he's an adult male. And everyone puts those godawful (sorry if you love these, I HATE them) "brain tourniquets" on the heads of their bald premie girls because GOD FORBID anyone mistake her for a male.

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Yeah, I've noticed that, too. And it does seem to be getting to be more of a thing these days. I never used to hear about parents having "gender reveal parties" (which makes me grit my teeth and want to rant about how there's no way to know your unborn baby's gender. Only their sex).

I'm always amazed when I hear/see how important it is to people that babies are dressed in the "right" colors and have the "right" toys. And a lot of times, it seems like extended family, friends, and strangers are more pushy about it than the parents themselves.

Celia Cyanide said:

I don't know about that. Jolie has always been an attention whore. When Shiloh was wearing a Ramones shirt when she was four, I didn't really believe she picked it out herself, either.

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Eh, I don't know. I think it's pretty common for 4-year-olds to wear clothes their parents picked out. I know I wasn't picking out all my clothing at that age. As long as the parents aren't trying to push a style that the kid dislikes, and are willing to give the child an opportunity to make choices, I don't think it's terrible if they pick out a shirt for the kid to wear and the kid chooses to wear it.

In any case, Shiloh is older now, so I'm willing to trust that she probably has a big hand in choosing what she wears.