Two NYPD cops shot "execution style" in Brooklyn

CassandraW

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Don't fret, William. Chicks dig the caveman type.
 

William Haskins

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people should still protest if they feel it's the right thing to do. maybe cool it on the "what do we want? dead cops!" bullshit for a day or two.
 

nighttimer

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that some kind of jab at my protruding brow and strong jaw?

I wouldn't know about that sort of thing. I don't dig you that way.

Just wondering where the aforementioned quote came from.

people should still protest if they feel it's the right thing to do. maybe cool it on the "what do we want? dead cops!" bullshit for a day or two.

Same deal with the "I can breathe" bullshit for a day or two?

Neither side has a monopoly on outrage or jackassery, so let's curb the urge to fling mud because neither side has clean hands here. If the suggestion cops can kill Black men with impunity or fear of consequence is extremism so is the irrationality of police unions who never have seen an action taken by an officer they wouldn't defend as justifiable and exemplary police work.

There are far more rational perspectives to be considered such as the one offered by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

According to Ecclesiastes, “To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose.” For me, today, that means a time to seek justice and a time to mourn the dead.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ntil-slain-cops-n273251?cid=par-time_20141223
And a time to shut the hell up.

The recent brutal murder of two Brooklyn police officers, Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu, is a national tragedy that should inspire nationwide mourning. Both my grandfather and father were police officers, so I appreciate what a difficult and dangerous profession law enforcement is. We need to value and celebrate the many officers dedicated to protecting the public and nourishing our justice system. It’s a job most of us don’t have the courage to do.


At the same time, however, we need to understand that their deaths are in no way related to the massive protests against systemic abuses of the justice system as symbolized by the recent deaths—also national tragedies—of Eric Garner, Akai Gurley, and Michael Brown. Ismaaiyl Brinsley, the suicidal killer, wasn’t an impassioned activist expressing political frustration, he was a troubled man who had shot his girlfriend earlier that same day. He even Instagrammed warnings of his violent intentions. None of this is the behavior of a sane man or rational activist.



The protests are no more to blame for his actions than The Catcher in the Rye was for the murder of John Lennon or the movie Taxi Driver for the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. Crazy has its own twisted logic and it is in no way related to the rational cause-and-effect world the rest of us attempt to create.


Those who are trying to connect the murders of the officers with the thousands of articulate and peaceful protestors across America are being deliberately misleading in a cynical and selfish effort to turn public sentiment against the protestors. This is the same strategy used when trying to lump in the violence and looting with the legitimate protestors, who have disavowed that behavior. They hope to misdirect public attention and emotion in order to stop the protests and the progressive changes that have already resulted. Shaming and blaming is a lot easier than addressing legitimate claims.
 

William Haskins

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saw kareem's column earlier today.

no need to try to use me as a stepping stone to lash out at the "i can breathe" idiocy.

i said immediately after garner's killing that the cops should be indicted, and i stand by it.

and i support the right to protest.
 

Lillith1991

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Can I just say that I detest how the shooter's parents spelled his name? I know there's such a things as alternative spelling, but damn if I've never come across a Biblical name spelled that way and the guy is obviously named after Ishmael.

Also, completely unrelated to the above issue. But the way people are reacting to the fact he shot his Ex before these guys is appalling. People seem to be blamming her in comments and stuff, asking if she could possibly deserve it. And I can think of very very few things which would ever warrent her former boyfriend following her to another city just to shoot her.

Personally? I'm sorry this guys parents will have to bury their child, surely as I'm sorry for the families of the cops he killed and woman he seriously injured. On the other hand, I'm glad he is dead. I feel gross for feeling that way, and disgusted with myself. Only... well, if this guy had not killed himself, I'm certain more people would be dead or injured.
 

CassandraW

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I try not to read the comments on most articles I find on the internet. They are usually horrible and ignorant.

I feel terrible for the girlfriend. Not only did she get shot by her ex-boyfriend, but I imagine it must be pretty traumatizing to know he killed a couple of other people before being killed himself. Certainly it is ridiculous to blame her for any of it.

But, yeah, I won't be shedding any tears over the shooter. I'm sure you're right that he wouldn't have stopped at shooting three people if he'd had the chance to shoot more.
 

Gilroy Cullen

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the irrationality of police unions who never have seen an action taken by an officer they wouldn't defend as justifiable and exemplary police work.

While I don't agree with their position, it is a union's job to protect their members. Of course they will place a public face of "They did no wrong." That's their job.

We don't know what internal discussions are happening with the union.

That being said, I think unions are running into a serious issue regarding public face and actual policy and they need to readdress that side of things.

All that for me to say, yeah, I pray for peace for the families of the slain officers, for a speedy recovery for the staff sargeant, and for something positive to come from all this grief at what is supposed to be a joyous time of year...
 

nighttimer

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no need to try to use me as a stepping stone to lash out at the "i can breathe" idiocy.

i said immediately after garner's killing that the cops should be indicted, and i stand by it.

and i support the right to protest.

As do I. It's just that expecting the NYPD to provide security and manage traffic for protests many consider to be "anti-police" while they are angry, hurt and in mourning for two fallen brother officers is cruelly insensitive and indifferent to their anguish.

Wasn't trying to use you as any sort of stepping stone. All I was seeking is an acknowledgement protestors on both sides have used inflammatory language which does nothing but heighten the already overheated rhetoric.

While I don't agree with their position, it is a union's job to protect their members. Of course they will place a public face of "They did no wrong." That's their job.

We don't know what internal discussions are happening with the union.

That being said, I think unions are running into a serious issue regarding public face and actual policy and they need to readdress that side of things.

I don't believe Patrick Lynch gives a damn about the PBA's "public face."

If Lynch did he wouldn't be hyperventilating at a news conference blaming de Blasio for the killings saying, "That blood on the hands starts on the steps of City Hall, in the office of the mayor.”

If Lynch gave a damn he wouldn't be deep French-kissing Daniel Pantaleo, the officer who killed Eric Garner with a banned choke hold saying, “He is the model of what we want a police officer to be. What’s also been lost is the character of police officer Daniel Pantaleo. What’s not being told is what kind of man and what kind of person and what kind of professional he is."He is a resident of this great city. He lives on Staten Island. He lives in those neighborhoods. He’s college educated, here in this city. He’s a mature, mature police officer who’s motivated by serving the community. He literally, literally, is an Eagle Scout.”

If Lynch gave a damn he wouldn't be circulating a form for PBA members to sign demanding Mayor de Blasio and the City Council Speaker not attend the funerals for cops killed in the line of duty.

Lynch's over-the-top rhetoric is mirrored in Cleveland by the police union head who defends the shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice as "justified" while blasting a Cleveland Browns player who wore a T-shirt in support of Rice and demanded an apology from the Browns. This was repeated in St. Louis by a police union criticizing Rams players for making the "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" gesture during pre-game introductions.

Police unions are supposed to back their members, but is there no such thing to these unions as a member whose actions so stray from acceptable conduct they won't defend that officer? Has a police union ever not sided with a bad cop? I mean like EVER?

The Thin Blue Line is beginning to look more like a Towering Blue Fortress with its members hunkered down in a siege mentality.
 
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kuwisdelu

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As do I. It's just that expecting the NYPD to provide security and manage traffic for protests many consider to be "anti-police" while they are angry, hurt and in mourning for two fallen brother officers is cruelly insensitive and indifferent to their anguish.

Maybe, but we just had a thread all about how law students shouldn't get a break for mourning the injustice of the case decisions, so it seems like a fair expectation.
 

CassandraW

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Maybe, but we just had a thread all about how law students shouldn't get a break for mourning the injustice of the case decisions, so it seems like a fair expectation.

Not quite the same thing. The police officers are not asking to be excused from doing their jobs altogether for several days so they can mourn.

Also, many of them personally knew and worked with the dead men.

That said, I support the right to protest. (Though I would think it in bad taste if they did a Westboro Baptist church and picketed the funeral with shouts of "they deserve to die," and I hope they won't.). If there were an attempt to prevent them from doing so in a lawful manner, I would oppose it. But I believe this is a request, not an order.
 
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kuwisdelu

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Not quite the same thing. The police officers are not asking to be excused from doing their jobs altogether for several days so they can mourn.

They both have to do with doing your job anyway despite dealing with tragedy/trauma, so it quickly reminded me of that thread.

Though to recall, I was on the side of the students, so I'd be amicable to officers asking for personal time, too.

That said, I support people's right to protest. (Though I would think it in bad taste if they did a Westboro Baptist church and picketed the funeral with shouts of "they deserve to die," and I hope they won't.)

Agreed. I will never understand the cheering of death. All untimely death is a tragedy, IMO, and my best wishes are with the families.

That being said, the "let's forget about these valid concerns to focus on a recent tragedy" rhetoric always rubs me the wrong way.
 
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raburrell

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And then there's the game one Fox affiliate got caught playing with the protests

the original chant at a protest in Baltimore:
We can't stop!

We won't stop!

'til killer cops are in cell blocks!

After the local Fox affiliate got through with it:
We can't stop!

We won't stop!

So kill a cop!

Pretty disgusting, and at least for me, it's hard to see any motive for doing so other than to discredit the protests, with a side order of fanning racist flames.

But hey, at least they apologized. :rolleyes:
 

Gilroy Cullen

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I don't believe Patrick Lynch gives a damn the PBA's "public face."

I believe we are of the same mindset but coming at it from different directions. I agree that Lynch only cares for himself and his paycheck. He doesn't care what the public thinks. Thus his policies and the "public face" comment.

Police unions are supposed to back their members, but is there no such thing to these unions as a member whose actions so stray from acceptable conduct they won't defend that officer? Has a police union ever not sided with a bad cop? I mean like EVER?

The Thin Blue Line is beginning to look more like a Towering Blue Fortress with its members hunkered down in a siege mentality.

Honestly, not that I remember in my lifetime. That said, not all unions will support bad employees the way the police unions seem intent on protecting theirs. Course, for some unions, like the Electrical Workers, a bad employee is a dead employee.
 

nighttimer

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And then there's the game one Fox affiliate got caught playing with the protests

the original chant at a protest in Baltimore:


After the local Fox affiliate got through with it:


Pretty disgusting, and at least for me, it's hard to see any motive for doing so other than to discredit the protests, with a side order of fanning racist flames.

But hey, at least they apologized. :rolleyes:

I'm too much of a gentleman to say what the Fixed News affiliate can do with their damn apology.

In case it wasn't already acknowledged, Blue Lives Matter too.
The reactions to the murders of two New York police officers this weekend have been mostly uniform in their outrage. There was the predictable gamesmanship exhibited in some quarters, but all agree that the killing of Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos merits particular censure. This is understandable. The killing of police officers is not only the destruction of life but an attack on democracy itself. We do not live in a military dictatorship, and police officers are not the representatives of an autarch, nor the enforcers of law handed down by decree. The police are representatives of a state that derives its powers from the people. Thus the strong reaction we have seen to Saturday's murders is wholly expected and entirely appropriate.

For activists and protesters radicalized by the killings of Michael Brown and Eric Garner, this weekend's killing may seem to pose a great obstacle. In fact, it merely points to the monumental task in front of them. The response to Garner's death, particularly, seemed to offer some hope. But the very fact that this opening originated in the most extreme case—the on-camera choking of a man for a minor offense—points to the shaky ground on which such hope took root. It was only a matter of time before some criminal shot a police officer in New York. If that's all it takes to turn Americans away from police reform, the efforts were likely doomed from the start.

The idea of "police reform" obscures the task. Whatever one thinks of the past half-century of criminal-justice policy, it was not imposed on Americans by a repressive minority. The abuses that have followed from these policies—the sprawling carceral state, the random detention of black people, the torture of suspects—are, at the very least, byproducts of democratic will. Likely they are much more. It is often said that it is difficult to indict and convict police officers who abuse their power. It is comforting to think of these acquittals and non-indictments as contrary to American values. But it is just as likely that they reflect American values. The three most trusted institutions in America are the military, small business, and the police.

To challenge the police is to challenge the American people, and the problem with the police is not that they are fascist pigs but that we are majoritarian pigs. When the police are brutalized by people, we are outraged because we are brutalized. By the same turn, when the police brutalize people, we are forgiving because ultimately we are really just forgiving ourselves. Power, decoupled from responsibility, is what we seek. The manifestation of this desire is broad. Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani responded to the killing of Michael Brown by labeling it a "significant exception" and wondering why weren't talking about "black on black crime." Giuliani was not out on a limb. The charge of insufficient outrage over "black on black crime" has been endorsed, at varying points, by everyone from the NAACP to Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson to Giuliani's archenemy Al Sharpton.

Implicit in this notion is that outrage over killings by the police should not be any greater than killings by ordinary criminals. But when it comes to outrage over killings of the police, the standard is different. Ismaaiyl Brinsley began his rampage by shooting his girlfriend—an act of both black-on-black crime and domestic violence. On Saturday, Officers Liu and Ramos were almost certainly joined in death by some tragic number of black people who were shot down by their neighbors in the street. The killings of Officers Liu and Ramos prompt national comment. The killings of black civilians do not. When it is convenient to award qualitative value to murder, we do so. When it isn't, we do not. We are outraged by violence done to police, because it is violence done to all of us as a society. In the same measure, we look away from violence done by the police, because the police are not the true agents of the violence. We are.
 

William Haskins

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The NYPD tell the New York Daily News that officer Wenjian Liu had volunteered to fill in for the man normally partnered with officer Rafael Ramos the day he was shot and killed by Ismaaiyl Brinsley in Brooklyn's Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood. Ramos' usual partner was running late that day.

Ramos' partner, the Daily News reports, called into the NYPD's 84th Precinct last Saturday to say he was going to be late; brass put out a call for someone to cover him, and Liu apparently volunteered. "He wasn't supposed to be there," a police source told the tabloid.

http://gawker.com/nypd-officer-slain-in-brooklyn-was-filling-in-for-late-1674449266
 

CassandraW

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I hadn't heard that before. That makes it even more tragic for Liu's loved ones.
 

Vince524

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Sure a union is supposed to stand by its members. That goes without saying. But they aren't defense attorneys who have to defend their members innocence regardless of the fact. The officer who shot the guy in the stairwell with the negligent discharge is a perfect example. Police Unions weld a lot of power and Lynch, IMHO, is using this to increase his. While I can understand police anger towards the Mayor, saying his has blood in his hands is taking it too far. It reminds me of how teachers unions will fight to keep even the worst of teachers.

As far as the protests, if people want to continue to protest, that's their right. And it's the job of the police to deal with it professionally. The "What do we want? Dead cops!" BS shouldn't have been there to begin with.